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2017-01-24 10:32 PM

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Subject: Chicago

So far this month there have been 228 shootings.  A 5% raise from last year.  if that trend continues, and there is no reason to think it won't, that city is looking at 4600+ shootings for 2017. (not murders, shootings....murders are up 24% which would lead to over 900 for the year if the trend continues)  By any measure, that's total insanity for an American city.....my God, it would be insanity for a city in Afghanistan.  The overwhelming majority of these incidents occur in the poor, black, inner city neighborhoods.  Much of it is drug and gang fueled.  President Trump has tweeted a threat to "send in the feds"....whatever that means.  I don't believe that the Chicago Police can stop it, mostly because I don't believe they have the will to stop it and risk being the next target of protests groups and news media. (this is very dangerous and violent work)

What should be done?  Like every neighborhood in our country, the majority....actually overwhelming majority...of the people who live there just want to be able to live their lives without fear.  How does this country help them?

I'd like to hear ideas on what should/can be done.  I feel like the National Guard could be the only option.....but man, soldiers in the streets of an American City is a wake up call for sure. Does anyone feel like this trend can be stopped short of that? 

I don't want to hear about jobs, unwed mothers, single parent families, lack of education, gun laws, blah,blah,blah, or any of the things that we know can lead to problems (yes, solving those are long range possible solutions, I think most of us can agree on that ) I'd also like to see a lack of political views, IF that's even possible anymore...there is plenty of time down the road to cast blame.....this is an absolute crisis...and it's growing.  What can be done NOW? 



Edited by Left Brain 2017-01-24 10:56 PM


2017-01-25 8:10 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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2017-01-25 9:02 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Chicago
It is a sad state of affairs and I agree with your post. I don't feel that this can be discussed outside of politics because this is what has gotten us to this point. A possible answer or at least one direction to consider, is how would a city/state/fed respond to lets say, ISIS doing the same thing in a large city? I see no difference in gangs in Chicago and ISIS. You are in LE, how would they respond to ISIS? How would it differ from gang task forces? It seems as though things go faster and deliver much more man power when something is possibly terror related. Perhaps that's a place start. Reality, IDK, I'm a rural guy who doesn't lock doors and keeps keys in the vehicles.
2017-01-25 9:29 AM
in reply to: NXS

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Originally posted by NXS It is a sad state of affairs and I agree with your post. I don't feel that this can be discussed outside of politics because this is what has gotten us to this point. A possible answer or at least one direction to consider, is how would a city/state/fed respond to lets say, ISIS doing the same thing in a large city? I see no difference in gangs in Chicago and ISIS. You are in LE, how would they respond to ISIS? How would it differ from gang task forces? It seems as though things go faster and deliver much more man power when something is possibly terror related. Perhaps that's a place start. Reality, IDK, I'm a rural guy who doesn't lock doors and keeps keys in the vehicles.

I get your point about the politics at play, but this is going to have to go beyond politics, if possible.  One of the problems, as I stated, in the current anti-police protest climate, is that Police Officers are MUCH less likely to put themselves in a position where they may have to use deadly force.  And like it or not, putting a stop to this carnage, in the short term, will require deadly force to be used in order to not become one of the murder #'s.  It's the nature of dealing with violence.

So if your police force doesn't feel it has the support of the City's politicians, and is basically at the mercy of protestors, who do you call?  The men and women of a police department in that situation will NOT do the type of proactive policing needed to curb the violence.  Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a quick fix for that either. 

I think we are left with either the Guard or a heavily militarized police force.

 

2017-01-25 9:46 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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FWIW in this discussion, Trump can't "send in the feds" legally unless Chicago requests federal assistance.

2017-01-25 10:07 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Chicago

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by NXS It is a sad state of affairs and I agree with your post. I don't feel that this can be discussed outside of politics because this is what has gotten us to this point. A possible answer or at least one direction to consider, is how would a city/state/fed respond to lets say, ISIS doing the same thing in a large city? I see no difference in gangs in Chicago and ISIS. You are in LE, how would they respond to ISIS? How would it differ from gang task forces? It seems as though things go faster and deliver much more man power when something is possibly terror related. Perhaps that's a place start. Reality, IDK, I'm a rural guy who doesn't lock doors and keeps keys in the vehicles.

I get your point about the politics at play, but this is going to have to go beyond politics, if possible.  One of the problems, as I stated, in the current anti-police protest climate, is that Police Officers are MUCH less likely to put themselves in a position where they may have to use deadly force.  And like it or not, putting a stop to this carnage, in the short term, will require deadly force to be used in order to not become one of the murder #'s.  It's the nature of dealing with violence.

So if your police force doesn't feel it has the support of the City's politicians, and is basically at the mercy of protestors, who do you call?  The men and women of a police department in that situation will NOT do the type of proactive policing needed to curb the violence.  Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a quick fix for that either. 

I think we are left with either the Guard or a heavily militarized police force.

 

The question remains - what are they going to do to make inner city Chicago more safe?  Is simply increasing the police presence enough - double, triple, etc. the number of officers on patrol?  Increase the use of Terry stops in a manner that is in line with the constitutional rights of those being detained (reasonable suspicion more than racial profiling)?



2017-01-25 10:12 AM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Chicago
Maybe he'll build a beautiful wall around it...
2017-01-25 10:21 AM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Kidding aside. I don't want to see Guard troops deployed. That will only lead to more marches and fuel the paranoid frenzy that is being artificially induced across the US right now. cnn headline would read, 'Trump sends in troops to Chicago to squash peaceful protest marches' and they'd get away with such.

I think it's a local problem and Rahm needs to be put on the hot seat for a solution. It is a politically suicidal proposition and Trump has enough shiitestorm going. I hope he has the sense to just highlight the failure of the Emmanuel admin and all those before him to address the problem. Call the democrat leadership out on their failure to secure the city and their role in allowing this once great town deteriorate into a war zone.
2017-01-25 10:23 AM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Chicago

Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by NXS It is a sad state of affairs and I agree with your post. I don't feel that this can be discussed outside of politics because this is what has gotten us to this point. A possible answer or at least one direction to consider, is how would a city/state/fed respond to lets say, ISIS doing the same thing in a large city? I see no difference in gangs in Chicago and ISIS. You are in LE, how would they respond to ISIS? How would it differ from gang task forces? It seems as though things go faster and deliver much more man power when something is possibly terror related. Perhaps that's a place start. Reality, IDK, I'm a rural guy who doesn't lock doors and keeps keys in the vehicles.

I get your point about the politics at play, but this is going to have to go beyond politics, if possible.  One of the problems, as I stated, in the current anti-police protest climate, is that Police Officers are MUCH less likely to put themselves in a position where they may have to use deadly force.  And like it or not, putting a stop to this carnage, in the short term, will require deadly force to be used in order to not become one of the murder #'s.  It's the nature of dealing with violence.

So if your police force doesn't feel it has the support of the City's politicians, and is basically at the mercy of protestors, who do you call?  The men and women of a police department in that situation will NOT do the type of proactive policing needed to curb the violence.  Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a quick fix for that either. 

I think we are left with either the Guard or a heavily militarized police force.

 

The question remains - what are they going to do to make inner city Chicago more safe?  Is simply increasing the police presence enough - double, triple, etc. the number of officers on patrol?  Increase the use of Terry stops in a manner that is in line with the constitutional rights of those being detained (reasonable suspicion more than racial profiling)?

It's interesting, because there is a large faction of people who say that more Police is not the answer.  That's not necessarily true.  We visited Chicago last year and I had no problem letting my daughters shop up and down Michigan Ave. alone....they were 15 at the time.  Of course, there are 2-4 Police Officers on every corner and crime is pretty much non-existent there.  Go figure.

That same philosophy works in neighborhoods too.  Put 2-4 Police Officers on EVERY corner and watch crime disappear.  It will.  Of course we don't do that because there is no pay-off.  We do it for Michigan Ave. because we need to protect the tax revenue.  We won't do it for inner city neighborhoods because those people are not as important as revenue coming in.  That's the truth of it.  And, of course, there are the vocal few who claim that all that police presence in those inner city neighborhoods is living proof of govt/institutional racism. 

And Dave.....President trump can "send in the feds" if he wants....depending on what he meant by that phrase.  He can easily increase manpower at the FBI, ATF, and DEA field offices there.  Hell, he can put 10,000 agents there if he wants to.  Yes, they could only enforce federal laws......but the use of task forces blurs that line to oblivion.  Federal resources for local officers enforcing state and local laws.  It's in use all over the country.

This is a fixable problem.......it just depends on who we, as a nation, are willing to give voice to.  Those who have no voice and live in terror and fear, or the louder ones who protest and make money on the backs of the fearful.  It's a decision that will have to be made, or the killing will continue and increase.

2017-01-26 9:46 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Chicago

Another important factor is being able to recognize the root causes.  Trying to fix stupid things that have no effect is a waste of time and resources.
I'm specifically referring to Rahm blaming guns for everything.  If we just make tighter gun laws with neighboring states then all our violence will stop... blah blah 

2017-01-26 10:52 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Chicago
What is the unemployment rate in these Chicago neighborhoods? I'm not being a wise-@ss, I don't really know.


2017-01-26 11:00 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Originally posted by Oysterboy What is the unemployment rate in these Chicago neighborhoods? I'm not being a wise-@ss, I don't really know.

I don't either, but I think we can all agree it's a very complex problem with multiple contributing things.

I do a lot of work with the inner city and poor in North Omaha and they have very high unemployment there.  However, it's not a matter of companies hiring people or moving there because that's not it at all.  What the issue is there's an employability problem more than an unemployment problem.  Even if 100 companies moved in and tried to hire the people they can barely read and speak let alone show up to a job on time and be respectful to coworkers.
One charity I do work with focuses on the basics of human interaction with things like looking people in the eyes and shaking hands.  Then we progress to helping them figure out how to make a schedule and stick to it.  It's really sad how badly these communities have been allowed to crumble.  

2017-01-26 11:09 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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In googling it, unemployment in the inner city of Chicago among African-Americans and Hispanics looks pretty bleak.  It's important to look at that demographic since statistics show they are the victims of ~93% of the shootings/murders in Chicago. I bet their schools absolutely suck too.   As a nation we will need to address that, but it took generations to tear it down to the level it is, and it will take a generation or two to fix it.  Tony alluded to some of the problems.  You are talking about a couple of generations who were never taught the value of a job or education (and yes, that overly simplifies it, but as the schools go, so goes the neighborhood....we all know that).

As I said in my OP.....these are the factors that got us where we are in Chicago....but how do you quell the violence NOW?

2017-01-27 9:04 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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If Chicago is similar to Philadelphia then part of the answer is more community invovlvement. Just like Chicago areas of Phili that have high shooting and murder rates want things to get better, safer. But they don't want more police and they don't get involved. Lots of shootings and murders take place in front of witnesses yet no one is willing to speak up and point out to the authorities who did it. IDK how those problems are going to be fixed.
2017-01-27 10:54 AM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano If Chicago is similar to Philadelphia then part of the answer is more community invovlvement. Just like Chicago areas of Phili that have high shooting and murder rates want things to get better, safer. But they don't want more police and they don't get involved. Lots of shootings and murders take place in front of witnesses yet no one is willing to speak up and point out to the authorities who did it. IDK how those problems are going to be fixed.

I think you have to make it so they are not afraid to.  They do have reason to be afraid to come forward. Criminals run many of those inner city neighborhoods....they make the most money, carry the most influence, and are the most violent.  You have to find a force to replace them......and yes, that's a short term solution.  But, as I said in an earlier post, you have to find a short term solution to stop the violence before you can even think of bringing about long term social changes.

2017-01-27 12:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Chicago
Inner city schools are a mess. My wife took her first teaching job at an inner city school around the time we got married. Most of the teachers in this school were also noobs. The district couldn't get or keep more experienced teachers because of the problems. My wife was assaulted and verbally abused by first graders. By assaulted, I mean she was punched and slapped by this one kid no less than 4 times. During the first assault hearing with the parents it was revealed that the young lad had right to strike his teacher because she was racist. The second hearing was because she disrespected young Derrick, the third was a combination of both and finally the district pulled him out of her class and he became the problem of another teacher, who was black. The assaults continued on the next teacher. He's probably dead now.

My poor wife received a disciplinary letter in her file for writing a note home to a parent, using red ink. She watched a kid copy the answers from a class mate during test. Finally she took his test, wrote a note home ( red ink pen was in her pocket for grading the tests ) and sent him to the office. The parents filed discrimination charges against my wife for disrespecting their son by taking his test away from him in front of his peers and then, writing the note them in red ink. The district ultimately got the racial discrimination charges dropped, but she did get a counseling letter in her employee file for how she handled the situation. The kid in question also got his test back and received a grade based on what he had completed prior to getting busted. He got a low C, which turned out to be the highest grade he got that year for any test. He's probably dead now too.

During the first day of classes, my wife had the kids introduce themselves and had them tell her what they wanted to be when they grew up. Plenty of doctors, pilots and astronauts in the group! So the hope and desire to get ahead exists in these children. Sadly two or three of them aspired to be like their uncle or father in prison. Seems they took their sentences like a warrior and were still kicking azz in prison; these kids were being taught that this was the ultimate example of manhood and warranted true respect. These kids are probably dead too.

The solution starts at home.

Edited by mdg2003 2017-01-27 12:18 PM


2017-01-27 12:53 PM
in reply to: mdg2003

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I think the solution does start at home......but now we have at least 2 generations that don't even know what that means.  There are a number of people who just have no idea how to raise productive kids....they had no model, so how could they?

I spent a great deal of my younger years as a cop policing a public housing neighborhood.....this one happened to be about 98% black, and incredibly dangerous.  We had 3 officers killed in a 4 years time period......it was only about 5 square blocks in area.  It just sounds stupid to say that the kids there were just like kids everywhere, because OF COURSE they are, but it has to be said because it's not a racial problem or even a cultural problem from my POV......it's an educational problem, and I don't mean just schooling.  If we want people to model good behavior and good values we have to find a way to teach them how, and teach the importance of it.  So many have missed that so there is nothing to pass on to their children.  Every human being wants peace and happiness....many don't have any idea how to accomplish that, much less pass it on.

I have no answers......the problem is massive. 

2017-01-27 1:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Chicago
Worth mentioning is the area in Houston my wife taught is 18th district, Sheila Jackson Lee territory. Nobody can argue with the tenacity of this woman or the fervor with which she protects and works for the constituents in her district. Sadly, her message to her voters is that they are victims. Nothing that happens in their lives is within their control and nobody but Sheila cares for them. She's spot on 2 for 3 in that assessment of the situation. The idea that they have no control of the outcome of their lives is unfortunate, condescending, wrong and ultimately destructive. Unfortunately she is also responsible for her people being victims by making them reliant on what Sheila can 'get' for them from the US govt. coffers. But, she does truly care for her constituents and is working to better their lives through government involvement. I think they just need to deviate from the role of enabler and benefactor. Approach the constituents as teachers; empower the people to be self reliant. Until Sheila and her like minded friends in Congress change the tack from hand out to hand up, these neighborhoods will continue to struggle and the people will fail.

It's nice to get money for nothing but, at some point your pride and self worth goes out the window. That's basic human nature. No pride or sense of accomplishment will ultimately undo any dreams or aspirations of greatness in anyone, regardless of who you are.

Edited by mdg2003 2017-01-27 1:33 PM
2017-01-27 1:38 PM
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I think we can do MUCH better with policing in this country as well.  If I were King of the Police, an officer would earn something just above the poverty level.  They would work for 10 years and then have a tremendous retirement package.  The overall cost would be about the same.  The benefit is that our Police force would more mirror the people they most often come into contact with.....poor people.  One of the major problems with Police Officers is that they lose empathy for the people they are most often called upon to police.  It's not hard when you're making nearly a 6 figure income and working neighborhoods racked with poverty.  You'd keep corruption out of policing by being absolutely firm on losing that retirement package if you become THAT officer.  10 years in a high crime area is about all your brain can handle anyway.



Edited by Left Brain 2017-01-27 1:39 PM
2017-01-27 9:34 PM
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CONGRESSWOMAN!
2017-01-28 8:37 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Chicago
Originally posted by Left Brain
If I were King of the Police...


I nominate you!


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