General Discussion Triathlon Talk » SHOES - Why is it so hard? Rss Feed  
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2017-07-17 3:49 AM

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Subject: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Good Morning everyone.

I am starting to prepare for my first sprint Tri which will take place in March next year.
Got my program ready and decided to start with a 5k program to get me used to running again.

One problem i have is all my shoes are weight lifting shoes. At best I have a couple Reebok cross-trainers, but I bought them for the weightlifting flexibility.
Bottom line is that my feet, especially near the big toe and on the arch.
Looking for good and comfortable pair for long distance running.

Can anyone give me some tips on good shoes?

Thanks in advance.
TLP.


2017-07-17 5:51 AM
in reply to: tlpina

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Do you have any running stores near you? If so, they should be able to help you select a shoe that is right for you. Different shoes work for different people.
2017-07-17 8:15 AM
in reply to: nickster

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Originally posted by nickster

Do you have any running stores near you? If so, they should be able to help you select a shoe that is right for you. Different shoes work for different people.


No. I have a bunch of shoe stores, but not one where people can answer questions.
I've been looking online and narrowed my search down to:

Pearl M2 v3
Asics Nimbus 19
Saucony Kinvara 8

but if you have experience with other shoes, it would be cool to know what to try.
2017-07-17 8:55 AM
in reply to: tlpina

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?

Originally posted by tlpina
Originally posted by nickster Do you have any running stores near you? If so, they should be able to help you select a shoe that is right for you. Different shoes work for different people.
No. I have a bunch of shoe stores, but not one where people can answer questions. I've been looking online and narrowed my search down to: Pearl M2 v3 Asics Nimbus 19 Saucony Kinvara 8 but if you have experience with other shoes, it would be cool to know what to try.

How did you decide on those particular shoes? The right pair for you will largely depend on your pronation and your foot strike. No one on this site will be able to give you good advice without that information. 

2017-07-17 8:56 AM
in reply to: nickster

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Originally posted by nickster

Do you have any running stores near you? If so, they should be able to help you select a shoe that is right for you. Different shoes work for different people.


^^this.

I know you said you don't have a running store nearby, but it will be well worth the trip to the closest one, no matter how far away it is! I have to drive over an hour to a running store, but I do it because shoes are the most important piece of equipment you can buy. They are your base foundation. The wrong shoes for your foot type/stride/body can lead to injuries that can potentially sideline you for weeks.

After the first trip, if you find something you like and that works for you and your body, then you can buy them at your local stores if they carry the same brand/model or online if they don't. I tend to have one shoe style I like, with two pairs in rotation for active training. The old pairs are used for walking around day to day, and the even older pairs are used for yard work/working around the house. Long story short: I tend to have anywhere between two and six pairs of the same exact shoe (color and all) laying around my house at any one given time. It drives my wife bonkers!!
2017-07-17 10:26 AM
in reply to: tlpina

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?

Originally posted by tlpina
Originally posted by nickster Do you have any running stores near you? If so, they should be able to help you select a shoe that is right for you. Different shoes work for different people.
No. I have a bunch of shoe stores, but not one where people can answer questions. I've been looking online and narrowed my search down to: Pearl M2 v3 Asics Nimbus 19 Saucony Kinvara 8 but if you have experience with other shoes, it would be cool to know what to try.
tipina, you have two Fleet Feet stores in ORL that really should be able to help you out.  On the Space coast we have Running Zone. I don't know about FF, but at RZ they will analyze your stride, have you try several pairs of shoes and if you buy a pair and they don't work out you can exchange them for a different pair.

Shoes are so particular, some are narrow, others are wide, some have 10mm drop, others 0mm, some are cushioned, other are firm, not figuring in pronate, supinate, and neutral positioning while running.  Best to get a pair that will work best for you as you build and not have a possibility to lead to injury. 



2017-07-17 10:41 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?

Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by tlpina
Originally posted by nickster Do you have any running stores near you? If so, they should be able to help you select a shoe that is right for you. Different shoes work for different people.
No. I have a bunch of shoe stores, but not one where people can answer questions. I've been looking online and narrowed my search down to: Pearl M2 v3 Asics Nimbus 19 Saucony Kinvara 8 but if you have experience with other shoes, it would be cool to know what to try.
tipina, you have two Fleet Feet stores in ORL that really should be able to help you out.  On the Space coast we have Running Zone. I don't know about FF, but at RZ they will analyze your stride, have you try several pairs of shoes and if you buy a pair and they don't work out you can exchange them for a different pair.

Shoes are so particular, some are narrow, others are wide, some have 10mm drop, others 0mm, some are cushioned, other are firm, not figuring in pronate, supinate, and neutral positioning while running.  Best to get a pair that will work best for you as you build and not have a possibility to lead to injury. 

Fleet Feet will watch you run and make recommendations based on your gait and footstrike. I like that company, but be prepared - they will tell you that you need Superfeet insoles. I used them for years (with no complaints). Then, one day I decided not to use them anymore. Made absolutely no difference in my running, and I've never been injured (before or after using them). The insoles can help, but you need to figure out for yourself if you need that extra support in the arch.

2017-07-17 2:56 PM
in reply to: LundyLund

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
If you are feeling pressure in your big toe and your arch I'd bet the farm that you are an overpronator. You will need stability shoes like Brooks Adrenaline. A running store can guide you.
2017-07-17 3:01 PM
in reply to: LundyLund

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Originally posted by LundyLund

Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by tlpina
Originally posted by nickster Do you have any running stores near you? If so, they should be able to help you select a shoe that is right for you. Different shoes work for different people.
No. I have a bunch of shoe stores, but not one where people can answer questions. I've been looking online and narrowed my search down to: Pearl M2 v3 Asics Nimbus 19 Saucony Kinvara 8 but if you have experience with other shoes, it would be cool to know what to try.
tipina, you have two Fleet Feet stores in ORL that really should be able to help you out.  On the Space coast we have Running Zone. I don't know about FF, but at RZ they will analyze your stride, have you try several pairs of shoes and if you buy a pair and they don't work out you can exchange them for a different pair.

Shoes are so particular, some are narrow, others are wide, some have 10mm drop, others 0mm, some are cushioned, other are firm, not figuring in pronate, supinate, and neutral positioning while running.  Best to get a pair that will work best for you as you build and not have a possibility to lead to injury. 

Fleet Feet will watch you run and make recommendations based on your gait and footstrike. I like that company, but be prepared - they will tell you that you need Superfeet insoles. I used them for years (with no complaints). Then, one day I decided not to use them anymore. Made absolutely no difference in my running, and I've never been injured (before or after using them). The insoles can help, but you need to figure out for yourself if you need that extra support in the arch.



Funny you say that Steve, I recently decided to forego the use of my Superfeet which I had been using for 5+ years. My complaint was that the outside of my foot was starting to hurt on long runs, felt like I was supinating - something that has never been ascribed to my stride. Went to a Fleet Feet near my mothers house in Mass last time I was there and the guy in the store (super knowledgable) suggested just putting back in the insoles that came with the shoe. I did so and voila, no more foot pain. I can feel my big toe roll-off, so I think I am still a slight overpronator - insoles didn't change that.
2017-07-18 5:08 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by tlpina
Originally posted by nickster Do you have any running stores near you? If so, they should be able to help you select a shoe that is right for you. Different shoes work for different people.
No. I have a bunch of shoe stores, but not one where people can answer questions. I've been looking online and narrowed my search down to: Pearl M2 v3 Asics Nimbus 19 Saucony Kinvara 8 but if you have experience with other shoes, it would be cool to know what to try.
tipina, you have two Fleet Feet stores in ORL that really should be able to help you out.  On the Space coast we have Running Zone. I don't know about FF, but at RZ they will analyze your stride, have you try several pairs of shoes and if you buy a pair and they don't work out you can exchange them for a different pair.

Shoes are so particular, some are narrow, others are wide, some have 10mm drop, others 0mm, some are cushioned, other are firm, not figuring in pronate, supinate, and neutral positioning while running.  Best to get a pair that will work best for you as you build and not have a possibility to lead to injury. 




I am not in Orlando. I am out in a country town in England on a work project.
Will be here for a little while.

About an hour from my house, there's a store called Up and Running. I called them yesterday and they do a full strike analysis.
Going there over the weekend.
2017-07-18 5:19 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Originally posted by Oysterboy

If you are feeling pressure in your big toe and your arch I'd bet the farm that you are an overpronator. You will need stability shoes like Brooks Adrenaline. A running store can guide you.


Thank you. That's one of the shoes the guy at up and running mentioned.


2017-07-18 8:37 AM
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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Good that you're going. It will be well worth the time and money. And it will be money. Don't be alarmed by the sticker shock on the cost of the shoes. They really are a superior quality in all facets...comfort, performance, and durability.

I wore the wrong shoe. The wrong length shoe. And the wrong width. And suffered from it.

2017-07-18 10:57 PM
in reply to: tlpina

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?

When I bought shoes I used to try on about 15 pair and walk around in each of them to find the one that felt the best.  Some stores would even let me run outside in them.  I know that some running stores will do a gate analysis to determine you running style and pair you with the right shoe.  I have never done any of that i just try on the shoes and get the ones that fit best.  I noticed after doing that for about 5 years that there was one brand that was usually the best fit so now I sometimes skip the 15 pair and just try on 3-4 of the models that I have liked in the past.  My feet and running style are different than everyone else in the world though so what I run in won't be the best fit for everyone.  :-)

2017-07-18 11:46 PM
in reply to: jhaack39

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
You said you're looking for shoes to get you running "again". That would indicate you did some running in the past. What shoes did you use then? How did they work for you? Anything you liked or disliked? Any injuries? Any recurring aches and pains? How far did you usually run? How much running do you anticipate doing now? What surfaces will you do most running on?

Pronation is the foot's natural motion of the arch flexing to absorb shock. Everyone pronates. Overpronation is when the arch flexes (lengthens) to the point where the foot becomes flatter and the ankle rolls inward to some degree. Under pronation, often called supination, is when the arch hardly flexes at all and the foot carries most of the weight on the outside. There are shoes made for overpronation, supination and neutral pronation. Some people benefit from such a shoe, while others don't need it. A friend of mine severely over pronates, yet has no problems running more than 2000 miles a year in a completely unstructured minimal shoe. It's almost painful to run behind him and see how severely his ankles roll in, but it causes him no problems. Other friends need shoes with extra support for overpronation because they get aches and pains without these kind of shoes. Everyone is different. All the questions above and more need to be asked by your shoe fitter. Gait analysis can only tell part of the story. Very few people actually supinate...something like 3%. Many who think they do were in the wrong kind of shoe that had too much medial support and caused their feet to roll out. True supinators usually need a highly cushioned shoe to help absorb impact since their arch isn't flexing enough.

People who self diagnose themselves for running shoes are very often wrong. For example the shoes the shoes being considered as possibilities are substantially different.

The advice about going to a running store and getting properly fitted is very good. Good running shoes differ substantially from shoes used for weight lifting. They also differ from less expensive "sport" shoes, which often look like running shoes. Running shoes are constructed with materials designed to withstand the loads caused by running for longer periods. Whatever you do, don't go in for a fitting, getting their expertise and using their time, and then go shopping online to save a few dollars. IMO people who do that are unethical. While you may choose to purchase subsequent shoes of the same kind online, don't go into a running store to take advantage of them. They may have higher prices, but they provide a service the online stores can't match.
2017-07-19 5:20 AM
in reply to: Donskiman


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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?

I actually seriously question the legitimacy of many running stores in terms of their knowledge regarding running shoe selection. 

 

When I want an medical/physical expert to advise me, I look for EVIDENCE based practices. If they are recommending me a fully cushioned shoe because I'm an 'overpronator', is their shoe or even the entire concept based around evidence that such a match statistically significantly reduces injuries? Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case. These shoe-foot matches are entirely based on pseudoscience marketing, not peer-reviewed journal science.

 

I have had too many running store teenagers and well-meaning 20sometings (i'm double that age and have run for 20+ years seriously) insist they were right, and every time, when I ask them to show me the sources of their 'knowledge', it comes entirely from a 3-4 page brochure from the company that has zero scientific content or references, or even an attempt at it. 

 

I used to believe video treadmill analysis was the solution, but even there, I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me it's any more than a marketing gimmick to sell more shoes. 

 

I actually recommend that folks go to the store and try on the full range of shoes, even ones that don't 'match' their foottype. (I run in lightweight/minimalist best, despite all store clerks saying I'm a huge overpronator and NEEDING heavy cushion shoes.) There will be ones that feel 'wrong' just based on foot size/shape, and other ones that feel better - start with the ones that feel better and you should be pretty close, although only true trial and error with running will get you to best match.

 

I do however, strongly recommend to stick with RUNNING shoes. I've actually run in a full gamut of shoes, from barefoot, to x-trainers, to $20 Walmart shoes, sandals, etc., and true running shoes have markedly superior durability in the bottom and midsole for running compared to any other type of shoe, and are usually lighter given they trim away a lot of excess lateral stabilizing features (like basketball high tops) and use lighter materials. I haven't come across any non-running type sneaker save water shoes for barefoot runners, that outperform true running sneakers. And the $20 Walmart ones wear out very quickly - I've killed a few in a single week of <70mpw running.

2017-07-19 8:40 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
True--I've had some pretty negative experiences with stores that offer video analysis. In particular, one where the person told me that since I had "weak ankles" (actually, have never had ankle or Achilles problems, and only a few sprained ankles in my whole life) I needed motion control shoes. Those "video analysis" stores seem to have a tendency to steer people into the more expensive models. The motion control shoes didn't seem to solve any problems (I wasn't really having any at the time anyway, other than worn-out shoes) and caused a lot of others. They were too stiff and heavy, didn't allow me to go through my natural stride, and led to sore/fatigued hamstrings and lower back.

I'm sure some running store people are quite knowledgeable, but some aren't. I would make sure that the shoe feels right before purchasing, and be a bit wary of someone who tries to push you into high-end models. BTW of the models OP mentioned, I'm pretty familiar with the Kinvara. I would recommend it as a great shoe for fairly lightweight runners with no serious biomechanical issues. They aren't really that well-cushioned or durable--would not recommend them as the only shoe for someone who runs really high mileage or is doing all their running on pavement or very rough surfaces. I tend to use mine mainly for speedwork, races, and sometimes (because they don't get so heavy when soaked with sweat) long runs. I use other models for other running.


2017-07-19 9:25 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?

Originally posted by yazmaster

I actually seriously question the legitimacy of many running stores in terms of their knowledge regarding running shoe selection.... 

I have had too many running store teenagers and well-meaning 20sometings (i'm double that age and have run for 20+ years seriously) insist they were right....

I used to believe video treadmill analysis was the solution, but even there, I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me it's any more than a marketing gimmick to sell more shoes. 

 I actually recommend that folks go to the store and try on the full range of shoes, even ones that don't 'match' their foottype..... 

 

Ya...I have been a competitive runner for over 30 years.  Some of the 20 something people will tell you the list of their best selling shoes if you ask for advice but don't know difference between a running shoe and any other type of athletic shoe.  

Last time I was into Runner's World (10+ years ago) I was helped by the store owner who had completed like 20 Ultra Marathons.  I am sure she knew a thing or two about shoes but did not try to push me into one shoe or another or try to "fix" any problems that I didn't have.  She just asked my what I wanted to see and got the 4-5 pair of their shoes I liked for me to try on (and run outside in).  We talked about up coming races and training but all we needed to know about the shoes is how they fit.   

FleetFeet was offering to do the free video treadmill analysis a few years after that but I passed.  I already knew what shoe worked for me and figured that it was mostly a sales gimmick. If they came up with the same shoe that I already know worked for me then all I had done was waste 30 minutes of my time for them to confirm what I already knew.  If they came up with a different shoe I would start to doubt that the shoes I was using were the best for me and might try a shoe that was supposed to "fix" a problem that I didn't have that would in reality not be as good as the shoe i had zeros in on over decades of running. So...I figured it was a useless test for me and only designed to increase buyer confidence in people just getting into running.  :-)  

2017-07-19 9:57 AM
in reply to: BlueBoy26


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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?

I posted above, but as additional advice given my experience with running stores/shoes:

 

There really ARE such things as experienced, knowledgable, and helpful salespeople that will make a huge difference in selecting a better shoe. They can be hard to find, but they are there.

 

But let's be clear about what even these great salespeople CANNOT do:

- They cannot analyze your gait and provide you true scientifically-backed recommendations of shoes that will work better and/or reduce injury, even with treadmill analysis, because the whole shoe matching to gait type is nearly entirely pseudoscience. If you doubt it, go look up the sparse references, and then also ask why these shoe companies don't put their peer-reviewed shoe science front and center when advertising or selling their shoes. I could likely convince you that you needed certain shoes as an overpronator by talking about my years of running, experience with other clients, etc., but the fundamental truth is that there would be no peer-reviewed science behind the main recommendation, so you might as well ignore it. Don't substitute a warm personality and years of running experience with a total lack of peer reviewed knowledge-based recommendations.

 

But on the flip side, here is what a great salesperson at a great shoestore will do to dramatically enhance your shopping experience:

- Be fast and generous about bringing out the shoes for you to try. They should encourage you to try on a whole bunch (it's more likely you'll buy a sneaker if you spend 40 mins trying shoes rather than 40 seconds, so don't feel bad about taking their time.

- Be very attentive to asking you about your prior running history. If you have had shoes that worked great for you before, a great salesperson can steer you toward models that are similar in build, weight, and cost as great starting points. (If you have zero running experience, they're obviously less useful, but you get the point.) Some salespeople are truly impressive in their historical knowledge of similar-type shoes. (our local store had regular aspiring pro runners working there - they knew their favorite brands/models inside and out.

- NOT bog you down with pseudo-science based recommendations. They should be recommending based on your past preferences and then trying multiple pairs in person. 

- Give you good, solid recommendations on how a running shoe is fitting you. You should be able to ask them 'hmm, this shoe feels like it's a bit tight up front in the toebox', or 'feels loose in the heel', and they should be able to either give you a new pair to try, and/or different models with wider toeboxes or other style differences that improve fit. They should be able to warn you if you select a shoe that fits too tight (very common for new runners who think tighter = better) that your feet will expand a bit with running and that you should go bigger.

 

 

2017-07-19 10:07 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?

Another thing that's been over complicated to the point of ridiculousness. 

Compare  the stride and foot strike of how ever many elite runners you can find (I use elite runners as a guide because they run the most) and you will be hard pressed to find two that are identical.  Furthermore, if you read enough articles and think you have a good idea of how NOT to run prepare to have that debunked as well when you find many elites who's foot strike/stride is exactly what you have read not to do.

Find a shoe that fits you and you are comfortable in.  That will allow you to run more comfortably, which will allow you to run more, which will allow you to become a better runner.  It will take some time, but you'll settle on a shoe that you enjoy running in.....THAT'S the shoe you want.

2017-07-19 10:32 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Yes, not every employee in every running store is an expert. However, many of the 20 somethings actually do know a substantial amount about shoes and running. But the staff must ask the questions. Don't try to fix what's not broken. As I wrote, some severe overpronators run without issues in very minimal shoes. A running shoe employee who tries to force such a person into a motion control shoe probably didn't ask the questions. Treadmill gait analysis is far from perfect too, but it's not possible to get more substantive testing in the limited space of a retail store.

The store I work at has some very expert shoe fitters. One is a former elite who has been doing this for more than 30 years. Our staff also has regular clinics conducted by podiatrists, physical therapists, and others to improve our knowledge base. Even so, to expect a person who has only been fitting for a month to have the same expertise as someone doing it for 30 years is not realistic. Not every customer needs all that expertise though.

Shoes are not a magic cure all either. They can't correct biomechanical inefficiencies or muscular imbalance. People come in an almost endless variety of shapes and sizes. A bow legged person with high arches may have much different needs than a knock kneed person with flat feet. An over striding overpronator is different than an overpronator who lands on the toes. A 5 foot tall 100 pound person is different than a 6'5", 280 pound person.

There's a huge variety of factors.
2017-07-19 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: SHOES - Why is it so hard?
Originally posted by Left Brain
Find a shoe that fits you and you are comfortable in.


That was my problem. I wasn't wearing the right size. Too short. Too narrow.
A 20-something (maybe 30? getting hard to tell these days) salesmen at a well known, non-nationwide chain near us....wouldn't sell me a shoe. He could have taken my $125...and I probably would have been happy. But....he wanted me to learn about my feet. And learn what comfortable should feel like....so that he could present the ones he thought best and I could pick the ones that felt the most promise. He sent me off to one of those comfort shoe stores where I ended up with a lecture and an overpriced Birkenstock footbed....that I have to admit...did the job.

That is the way to earn my guaranteed repeat business.

Every time I go....I still try 3-4 other flavors, but always revert to the one that feels like "home".




Edited by jhaack39 2017-07-19 11:58 AM


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