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2017-08-14 12:38 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

Originally posted by Oysterboy "because it's a forking scary damn place and they worked their arses off against all odds just to get the hell out.!" Bingo.

But that doesn't mean they won't come back.  Everyone wants to be able to go home, even if they can't......and in speaking to those who have made it out, I know that most of them want to give something back to help others.  There IS a desire within these communities to help themselves, but they can't do it without outside support......they just don't have the means.  We can, of course, do nothing.....and it will cost us far more before it's over.



2017-08-15 8:43 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by Left Brain

If I were King I'd rebuild schools in poor neighborhoods, and not in some half-assed way......I'd make them gems.......we have let them turn to chit, or in many cases, become non-existent....the neighborhoods are a reflection of that.  If you want to talk about pride, let's talk about what happens when there is a complete lack of anything to be proud of, and care for, and nourish......that's what you're seeing IMO. 

Hasn't worked, and won't work until the residents of the neighborhood take ownership of what they have.  Until then, that "gem" just becomes a target of destruction.  Holds for both the physical assets as well as the time/emotional investment of education.  

It's not been tried.....at least not here in St. Louis, but I did get to witness the utter destruction of black neighborhoods when busing was forced upon them and their schools were allowed to deteriorate.  Those schools were part of the Public High League here, the most feared HS league in the state.  Those teams, and schools, were an absolute source of pride for those neighborhoods and was the glue that held them together.  When the students of those schools, and the athletes, were bused out to the suburban (and wealthier) schools, it spelled the end.

I don't know how it is where you are (I can't imagine it's different anywhere), but here, property values track right along with the best school districts.  And again, that's only one benefit........these neighborhoods and the residents (read children) that live there need a reset.....and chance to build pride in their community.  Certainly there are other components......grocery stores, jobs, etc....but it starts with good schools and good education.

NO....it has NOT been tried here, and I doubt it's been tried, to much degree, anywhere.  The cost is prohibitive and would require that money currently used to fund many "entitlement" programs be moved toward this endeavor. 

I worked these neighborhoods.....the people there WILL take ownership of something they can be proud of.....because they don't have anything else.

I spent 15 years living in Peoria, IL in a city neighborhood South of the 2 "boundaries" people said don't live South of (there was still 1 to go).  I've seen brand new playground equipment vandalized within weeks of installation.  Why?  because too many people in those neighborhoods didn't value what was being provided.  To them, it would be replaced again after it was destroyed.  This was during a period when one of the disadvantaged high schools (Manual) one 4 BB championships in a row and a year or two later, the other (Peoria) one two.  

2017-08-15 9:07 AM
in reply to: McFuzz

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by Left Brain

If I were King I'd rebuild schools in poor neighborhoods, and not in some half-assed way......I'd make them gems.......we have let them turn to chit, or in many cases, become non-existent....the neighborhoods are a reflection of that.  If you want to talk about pride, let's talk about what happens when there is a complete lack of anything to be proud of, and care for, and nourish......that's what you're seeing IMO. 

Hasn't worked, and won't work until the residents of the neighborhood take ownership of what they have.  Until then, that "gem" just becomes a target of destruction.  Holds for both the physical assets as well as the time/emotional investment of education.  

It's not been tried.....at least not here in St. Louis, but I did get to witness the utter destruction of black neighborhoods when busing was forced upon them and their schools were allowed to deteriorate.  Those schools were part of the Public High League here, the most feared HS league in the state.  Those teams, and schools, were an absolute source of pride for those neighborhoods and was the glue that held them together.  When the students of those schools, and the athletes, were bused out to the suburban (and wealthier) schools, it spelled the end.

I don't know how it is where you are (I can't imagine it's different anywhere), but here, property values track right along with the best school districts.  And again, that's only one benefit........these neighborhoods and the residents (read children) that live there need a reset.....and chance to build pride in their community.  Certainly there are other components......grocery stores, jobs, etc....but it starts with good schools and good education.

NO....it has NOT been tried here, and I doubt it's been tried, to much degree, anywhere.  The cost is prohibitive and would require that money currently used to fund many "entitlement" programs be moved toward this endeavor. 

I worked these neighborhoods.....the people there WILL take ownership of something they can be proud of.....because they don't have anything else.

I spent 15 years living in Peoria, IL in a city neighborhood South of the 2 "boundaries" people said don't live South of (there was still 1 to go).  I've seen brand new playground equipment vandalized within weeks of installation.  Why?  because too many people in those neighborhoods didn't value what was being provided.  To them, it would be replaced again after it was destroyed.  This was during a period when one of the disadvantaged high schools (Manual) one 4 BB championships in a row and a year or two later, the other (Peoria) one two.  

Vandalism is never a reason not to do something IMO.  We built a $1,000,000 park in the middle of a public housing area.  The equipment and buildings were vandalized (graffiti, broken windows, torn down basketball nets, etc.. etc. ) nearly every weekend for about 6 months or so.  Every Monday we fixed it or painted over the graffiti....EVERY DAMN TIME.  After awhile, people in the neighborhood started calling us when they witnessed something.....it was mostly kids and our court made them help fix and paint when something got broken/vandalized.  Now, 6 years later, I can't remember the last time it was vandalized. 

I don't mind being told that there's a problem.  I won't be told there is not a solution.  We can help fix our poor, crime ridden, neighborhoods.....but it's going to take education, time, and money.  We're going to pay for those crime ridden neighborhoods one way or another.....believe it.....we just have to decide how we want to pay.

Obviously, I'm no bleeding heart.....but I know this without a doubt.....those neighborhoods are FILLED with people who are tired of living in fear and want to make a better life for themselves......fantastic, caring people.....like most people everywhere.  They need help figuring out how to do that.  We are now a couple of generations deep in people who never learned how.....nobody taught them or gave them a reason to believe they could have that. Blame failed liberal entitlements, uncaring conservatives....whatever.....what the hell difference does it make how we got here?  If we don't fix it, we'll eventually lose our society....cities first.

2017-08-15 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Originally posted by dmiller5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

 





http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/15/nyt-defends-using-white-nationali...


To me, white nationalist suggests a nationalist who is white. Evidently to some, it means people who believe the US should be totally white....

Edited by Rogillio 2017-08-15 12:00 PM
2017-08-15 7:06 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Ya know, it just ain't that hard. Politicians condemn hate groups such as neo-nazis, skinheads, KKK, white supremacists, people who march with torches chanting Blood and Soil. No equivalency, no hesitation. Period.
2017-08-15 7:54 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
I agree with many of the opinions stated here.
First, there is no cause I believe in strongly enough to spend my weekends protesting.
Second, I agree with the President that both sides are at fault. Neo Nazi's for just being plain fools and the counter protesters who are just asking for a fight from folks who really want a fight.
Third, there was a time when Neo nazi's/skinheads or whatever they were called were looked at as fringe groups who were "outsiders" most people ignored. Now, they are treated as mainstream and accuse the president of essentially being on.
Fourth, the constant media bashsing of Trump does nothing to calm the unrest, which is what the media desires. Then they can paint Trump as a divider, an agitator, a racist, all in the hopes of driving Democrats in the next election cycle.
Last, free speech is on a slippery slope here. I have recently read many articles of outrage because China is limiting internet access to certain sites. Today I read that Google is banning sites based on content they disagree with. How is that different than what China is doing? Who decides what content is acceptable?


2017-08-15 9:58 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Originally posted by OysterboyYa know, it just ain't that hard. Politicians condemn hate groups such as neo-nazis, skinheads, KKK, white supremacists, people who march with torches chanting Blood and Soil. No equivalency, no hesitation. Period.
What about people who March chanting, "what do we want, dead cops, when do we want it, now".....is that the same or nah. If not, when did President Obama condemn that? In fact, when did any liberal politician condemn that? Did Maxine Waters? The point can be made for hatred from fringe groups on both sides.....the same point can be made that politicians pick and choose which hate speech to condemn....as it can be made for violence from both sides. We might as well move on to the next point because that one seems to be a lost cause these days.....it's a draw.
2017-08-15 10:18 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
If you really want to feel lost, go to the CNN and then to the FOX websites......we all apparently live together on alternate universes. LMAO
2017-08-16 5:55 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Originally posted by Left Brain

If you really want to feel lost, go to the CNN and then to the FOX websites......we all apparently live together on alternate universes. LMAO


You could not be more accurate in saying that!
2017-08-16 6:12 AM
in reply to: hessma

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
The other thing that is interesting is if I think that both sides are at fault, that means I support white supremacists. I am not sure how/why it is mutually exclusive to the discussion. I am logical enough to see that 1) White Supremacists have no place in society and 2) they are also free to march. I am also logical enough to see that 1) People are free to counter march and 2) if the objective is to "stop the other march" then bad things are cooking.

Again, this is now a media driven frenzy and another opportunity for the media to push an agenda
2017-08-16 6:14 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by OysterboyYa know, it just ain't that hard. Politicians condemn hate groups such as neo-nazis, skinheads, KKK, white supremacists, people who march with torches chanting Blood and Soil. No equivalency, no hesitation. Period.
What about people who March chanting, "what do we want, dead cops, when do we want it, now".....is that the same or nah.


Yes, this is to be condemned as well and the failure of Obama to call out that thinking for the hate it is was wrong.


2017-08-16 7:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
OB - that's the point isn't it? If it should have been condemned but wasn't that give that group power and incentive to keep going.

Let's face it if the Antifa did not show up on Saturday looking for a fight, there is really no news here other than some morons with shaved heads and wearing silly sheets over themselves walking around.
2017-08-16 7:33 AM
in reply to: hessma

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

Originally posted by hessma OB - that's the point isn't it? If it should have been condemned but wasn't that give that group power and incentive to keep going. Let's face it if the Antifa did not show up on Saturday looking for a fight, there is really no news here other than some morons with shaved heads and wearing silly sheets over themselves walking around.

And if she hadn't worn that short skirt and low top she wouldn't have gotten raped. 

2017-08-16 8:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

Originally posted by crowny2

Originally posted by hessma OB - that's the point isn't it? If it should have been condemned but wasn't that give that group power and incentive to keep going. Let's face it if the Antifa did not show up on Saturday looking for a fight, there is really no news here other than some morons with shaved heads and wearing silly sheets over themselves walking around.

And if she hadn't worn that short skirt and low top she wouldn't have gotten raped. 

Except that she paraded around in a short skirt and low top all night Friday, carrying a torch, and nobody got raped. (I REALLY don't like your analogy BTW....the two are not connected in any way)

Look, I see what happened down there as a failure of Law Enforcement.  I was watching Antifa and BLM twitter accounts Friday night and from 1500 miles away I said, "tomorrow is going to be a problem for the cops down there" because the radicals had a call to arms to stop the Nazi march.....except the cops basically never showed up and the left radicals did.  This is really simple stuff.....if you let the KKK and Antifa come together it's going to explode.  To let that happen is a shame......to not intervene is something worse than a shame.  I'd like to know who stood the cops down and who is pulling all the strings for this crap, because, just like here on this board, rational people seem to have no problem talking about it and working through it......somebody, or some entity, REALLY enjoys and hopes to profit from all of this. (that pains me to say because I hate conspiracy theories)

OB - thanks for also denouncing the BLM chants during the last administration....fair enough.  I doubt we're very far apart on this but if we all, collectively, keep letting the fringe carry the narrative we risk having to choose sides apart from our shared humanity......and from there it's a spiral toward a very bad place.



Edited by Left Brain 2017-08-16 9:06 AM
2017-08-16 8:52 AM
in reply to: hessma

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

Originally posted by hessma The other thing that is interesting is if I think that both sides are at fault, that means I support white supremacists. I am not sure how/why it is mutually exclusive to the discussion. I am logical enough to see that 1) White Supremacists have no place in society and 2) they are also free to march. I am also logical enough to see that 1) People are free to counter march and 2) if the objective is to "stop the other march" then bad things are cooking. Again, this is now a media driven frenzy and another opportunity for the media to push an agenda

Great post......spot on!

2017-08-16 11:32 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Since there is now a push to remove all statues of confederate soldiers, does that mean the government should remove any statues and references to

George Washington - Remove from the Washington Monument, dollar bill, a university, a bridge
Thomas Jefferson - Remove from currency, a hospital organization in Philadelphia, a memorial in DC
James Madison - Change the name of a university

James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, US Grant, Zachary Taylor, Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler and Andrew Johnson were other presidents who owned slaves.

At what point do we stop revising history as to not offend people? Our history is our history, good or bad.


2017-08-16 12:09 PM
in reply to: hessma

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

Take down Mt. Rushmore!!!!

2017-08-16 12:17 PM
in reply to: hessma

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
A few thought on prejudice....

I have always contended that prejudice is a state of mind and never hurt anyone. The ACT of discrimination is what hurts people. We are ALL prejudice in our own ways in that we 'judge' or make assumptions about people before we know them. So what?! This is human nature.

I have a step-sister who adopted a Chinese baby girl who had been left on the doorstep of an orphanage. So now she is 20 year old beautiful Chinese woman....100% Chinese and as soon as she opens her mouth with an speaks with a slow country drawl you brain just kinda goes nuts for a minutes trying to reconcile what you are seeing and what you are hearing (and what you had assumed). And just like that your prejudices change and the prejudices (or pre-judgements) you have about southerners comes up but the prejudices you have about women remain or change slightly.

Anyway, it's just human nature.

See a guy carrying a confederate flag and many assume he is an uneducated, white supremacist racist bigot.
2017-08-16 1:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Originally posted by hessma

Since there is now a push to remove all statues of confederate soldiers, does that mean the government should remove any statues and references to

George Washington - Remove from the Washington Monument, dollar bill, a university, a bridge
Thomas Jefferson - Remove from currency, a hospital organization in Philadelphia, a memorial in DC
James Madison - Change the name of a university

James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, US Grant, Zachary Taylor, Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler and Andrew Johnson were other presidents who owned slaves.

At what point do we stop revising history as to not offend people? Our history is our history, good or bad.

None of the American Presidents you named above supported a treasonous rebellion against the union and many had a hand in positively shaping the country we are so proud to be a citizen of (well maybe not Van Buren, he was a crummy prez and Harrison was president for the time it takes to eat a ham sammich). Nevertheless, cannot say that sentiment would readily apply to RE Lee, Jeff Davis, James Longstreet.

Now, with that said, I am fine with the heritage stuff. I had a great-great-great-whatever uncle who was a corps commander at Gettysburg. As a Yankee I don't share the southern heritage, IMHO the South got beat to a bloody pulp in that war and in many ways continues to pay the price today. But it is not my heritage so I keep my opinion to myself. However, I also recognize that A LOT of those statues were erected years after the civil war during the time of Jim Crow. And, rightfully so, many see it as a public display of repressionist politics.

In my town they just recently took down the statue in the center of town and re-positioned it in a graveyard where some CSA vets are buried. No one seemed to get their nose bent out of shape by that decision. But this is Florida, only sorta Southern.

Edited by Oysterboy 2017-08-16 1:39 PM
2017-08-16 1:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

The statues are a non-issue for me.  Tear them all down and put up new ones of other people if you want, or replace them with bathrooms, or trash cans, or whatever......I don't care.  I think statues of people are dumb.  BUT....I did think the video of the people kicking the statue they tore down in N. Carolina was one of the funniest things I'd seen in a while.  In fact, I recorded it so I can watch it some more when I need a genuine belly laugh.  I miss being young and stupid.



Edited by Left Brain 2017-08-16 1:55 PM
2017-08-16 3:05 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Originally posted by Left Brain

The statues are a non-issue for me.  Tear them all down and put up new ones of other people if you want, or replace them with bathrooms, or trash cans, or whatever......I don't care.  I think statues of people are dumb.  BUT....I did think the video of the people kicking the statue they tore down in N. Carolina was one of the funniest things I'd seen in a while.  In fact, I recorded it so I can watch it some more when I need a genuine belly laugh.  I miss being young and stupid.




I will have to go find that, it sounds great!

As for statues, I do not care either, its the reason WHY they are being taken down is what bothers me.


2017-08-16 3:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6koXCehHJdQ

bwaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha!!!!  Maximum comedic value at 1:17.  LMAO

2017-08-16 6:41 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Originally posted by Left Brain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6koXCehHJdQ

bwaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha!!!!  Maximum comedic value at 1:17.  LMAO




I just have no words for this. But I do love the guy playing guitar as he kicks the statue.

Seriously though, you know the rest of the world is broadcasting this all night.
2017-08-16 7:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest

LOL - last night I watched that damn thing 20 or 30 times because every time I did I saw one of those goofballs doing something else that just broke me up laughing. 

I give them their props for passion.....but damn, I hope they watch themselves in 30 years.

P.S. - if you are young and reading this......here's some free advice from a former mailbox baseball professional in my younger days.......  I know it's cool to get on social media and show the world how you're a badazz statue tearer downer......you might want to consider the consequences of taking video of yourself committing felony property damage. LMAO

I believe the guitar player may be the Arlo Guthrie of his day......

"What are you in for?"...........Statue Kicking. 

You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant,



Edited by Left Brain 2017-08-16 7:49 PM
2017-08-17 2:48 PM
in reply to: hessma

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Subject: RE: Charlottesville protest
Originally posted by hessma

Since there is now a push to remove all statues of confederate soldiers, does that mean the government should remove any statues and references to

George Washington - Remove from the Washington Monument, dollar bill, a university, a bridge
Thomas Jefferson - Remove from currency, a hospital organization in Philadelphia, a memorial in DC
James Madison - Change the name of a university

James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, US Grant, Zachary Taylor, Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler and Andrew Johnson were other presidents who owned slaves.

At what point do we stop revising history as to not offend people? Our history is our history, good or bad.


I don't view our history as the statue's. To me it is just common sense it doesn't make sense to celebrate those who fought and killed to keep the right to enslave people. While it would've been incredible for the others you list to have taken the lead and looked to abolish slavery they in general accomplished and led a lot of great times in American History while the confederate soldiers/leaders are known solely for being on the wrong side of slavery. Nothing to celebrate or commemorate there which is typically the purpose of statue's (I agree FWIW that statue's are silly in concept). It's like the Governor saying it is similar to taking down 9/11 Memorials. No it would be the same as taking down any shrines or remembrances of the hijackers themselves. The site(s) should be memorialized so We Never Forget and I still well up every time I'm even within shouting distance of Ground Zero.
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2017-03-31 1:08 PM tuwood