Well if this don't take the cake....

2017-12-05 8:27 AM

Champion

10154

Alabama

Subject: Well if this don't take the cake....

OK, the Case of the Reluctant Baker is being taken up by the SCOTUS. This has been billed as a case of civil rights vs freedom of religion but I think that is a mischaracterization. The baker never said he would not bake them a cake. What he refused to do is use his artistic talent to design them a custom cake.

Baker wrote:

"What I design is not just a tower of flour and sugar, but a message tailored to a specific couple and a specific event — a message telling all who see it that this event is a wedding and that it is an occasion for celebration.

In this case, I couldn’t. What a cake celebrating this event would communicate was a message that contradicts my deepest religious convictions, and as an artist, that’s just not something I’m able to do, so I politely declined."

Personally, I think the plaintiffs were not "simply wanting to buy a cake" as I've read in several accounts. There are dozens of places that would happily take their business and design them a cake. What they wanted was to force this man who opposed homosexual marriage to use this artistic talent to design them a cake.

Image asking a Muslim artist to paint you photographs of Mohammad in compromising positions so you could use them at your anti-Islam rally. Or asking a black seamstress to make you triple k costumes for your Halloween lynching party.

I predict the SCOTUS will side with the proprietor....because he did not refuse to provide them service, he refused to use his artistic talent in a way that violates his core beliefs.

What say you? Predictions?

tuwood

2017-12-05 9:59 AM

in reply to: Rogillio

Pro

9391

Omaha, NE

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

From what I've seen reported it seems like pretty much a slam dunk for the bakers in this particular case.

2017-12-05 11:20 AM

in reply to: tuwood

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

did the cake have two men engaged in intercourse on it? no. it was a freaking wedding cake. if a muslim asks for a wedding cake you should bake it for them too. that argument is asinine

2017-12-05 11:53 AM

in reply to: dmiller5

Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

I was lost at "what I design is not just a tower of flour and sugar"................well ok then.

2017-12-05 12:45 PM

in reply to: dmiller5

Champion

10154

Alabama

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

Originally posted by dmiller5

did the cake have two men engaged in intercourse on it? no. it was a freaking wedding cake. if a muslim asks for a wedding cake you should bake it for them too. that argument is asinine

If it's just a wedding cake, Walmart sells them and so does Publix. What he does is make custom made wedding cakes based on the couple getting married. Not sure what all that entails but perhaps for you they'd put a podium and have your bride standing on the top tier and you in the second place slot because that is the nature of your relationship. Just teasing. Just making a point. It is not 'just a wedding cake'.

You totally missed the point about the Muslim. It is a ANALOGY. An analogy is a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. So let try again:

Compare the wedding cake artist to a Muslim artist who paints custom paintings. Ask him to paint a bridge and he will paint you a beautiful bridge. But ask him to paint you a painting of Mohamad and he will refuse. No one is not allowed to draw pictures of the prophet. But you DEMAND he use his talent to paint your picture! He says, "No. I can no do dat. It is a not permitted." Can you paint me a picture of a bridge? "Of course. That I can do. What color do you want?" You say but I really don't want a bridge, I want a painting of Mohamad! "No! That I cannot do!" So you take him to court to sue him to get the state to compel him to paint Mohammad. He cannot refuse a customer just because the painting. He argues it violates his core beliefs. And you say, "That is asinine! It's a painting!!

2017-12-05 1:18 PM

in reply to: Rogillio

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

but your analogy is terrible and is using two things that aren't even close to comparable.

2017-12-05 1:24 PM

in reply to: dmiller5

Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

I know where you are coming from Dave.....and I don't necessarily disagree, but I bet the court does.

2017-12-05 1:46 PM

in reply to: dmiller5

Champion

10154

Alabama

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

Originally posted by dmiller5

but your analogy is terrible and is using two things that aren't even close to comparable.

Gee, I thought it was quite clever. Both are artisans who provide a service to the public. Their services are both talent based. Both object to providing a service to a customer because what the customer wants violates their core belief.

What about the seamstress who makes custom costumes. She is very talented and can make you a pirate costume, a Peter Pan outfit, a Mary Poppins outfit....but when the skinhead came into ask her to make him a white hood and robe like they wore in O Brother Where Art Thou, she refuses.

Non-denominational Christian minister. He is often asked by various members of the community (but not members of his church) to perform wedding ceremonies. He usually agrees to do so but only after counseling the couple and making sure they believe Jesus is the Son of God and he died for their sins, etc, etc. He wants to hear from them to judge if he thinks they are compatible...and make sure one is not 30 and the other 17 (sorry, wrong thread). He does not always agree to perform the ceremony. If he believes the couple are not compatible or are not right with God or just wrong for each other, he will not perform the service. Should the state come in and compel this man to quit discriminating against heathens?

It is a slippery slope when we allow the government to force people to do things that violates their religious beliefs.

A few years back a Muslim woman in FL went in for her DL. FL law says you can't have head cover on in your DL photo. She refused to take off her head gear and they refused her a DL. FL supreme court ruled they had to giver her a DL.....because her religion would not allow her to comply with the 'no head cover rule'. I mention this case to show it is no unprecedented for the state to allow 'religious exceptions' to the law.

2017-12-05 1:49 PM

in reply to: Rogillio

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

its a cake, he's not asking them to make a double sided dildo in her mom and pop shop. they are literally asking them to do the exact same job.

a good anology would be. you made pair of jeans for a christian white man, do you have to make a jeans for a muslim arab woman. i think yes.

Oysterboy

2017-12-05 1:54 PM

in reply to: 0

Expert

2373

Floriduh

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

This is a hard one, as a card-carrying agnostic I say make the d@mn cake but I do understand folks have their sensitivities. I think a reasonable compromise would be for the store owner to list who he will and will not provide his services to on the front door - say it upfront. Bet that won't be good for business but you won't have your beliefs compromised.

How would you slice a double-headed dildo cake anyway?

Edited by Oysterboy 2017-12-05 1:56 PM

2017-12-05 2:00 PM

in reply to: dmiller5

Champion

10154

Alabama

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

Originally posted by dmiller5

its a cake, he's not asking them to make a double sided dildo in her mom and pop shop. they are literally asking them to do the exact same job.

a good anology would be. you made pair of jeans for a christian white man, do you have to make a jeans for a muslim arab woman. i think yes.

Not according to what I read. They are asking for a custom cake. That is what he does, he talks to the couple to learn something about them and then designs something special that is unique to them. He never said he would not bake them a wedding cake. He would do that! What he said was he would not make them a custom designed cake.

tuwood

2017-12-05 2:12 PM

in reply to: dmiller5

Pro

9391

Omaha, NE

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

Originally posted by dmiller5

its a cake, he's not asking them to make a double sided dildo in her mom and pop shop. they are literally asking them to do the exact same job.

a good anology would be. you made pair of jeans for a christian white man, do you have to make a jeans for a muslim arab woman. i think yes.

better analogy would be to say the jean maker would have to make jeans for both, but refuses to put custom embroidery with a picture of Allah on them. They didn't have a problem selling them a wedding cake (or jeans in this case), but they wanted them to put messaging on the cake that they disagreed with.

As LB says, I totally get where you're coming from Dave but I'm pretty confident the courts will rule in their favor.

Another interesting tidbit with cases like this is it depends a lot on where these things take place. Any company can refuse to do business with anyone for any reason as long as they do not discriminate upon a legally protected class. There are many places where sexual orientation is a protected class, but there are far more where it is not. Purely from a legal standpoint a business owner can refuse to do any business with someone who is gay, where it's not a protected class. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying how the law looks at it.

2017-12-05 2:15 PM

in reply to: 0

Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

Originally posted by Rogillio

Originally posted by dmiller5

its a cake, he's not asking them to make a double sided dildo in her mom and pop shop. they are literally asking them to do the exact same job.

a good anology would be. you made pair of jeans for a christian white man, do you have to make a jeans for a muslim arab woman. i think yes.

Right, because it's not just a tower of flour and sugar, it's a double headed dildo.

Edited by Left Brain 2017-12-05 2:16 PM

3mar

2017-12-05 2:29 PM

in reply to: 0

1502

Katy, Texas

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

Figurative card carrying agnostic here, and a literal card carrying member of the Human Rights Campaign (LGBTQ org) but I've got to say, if they didn't refuse to sell them a cake, but only a custom cake, then I've got to side with them.

The perfect analogy would be forcing a Muslim restaurant owner to serve someone pork:

Muslim restaurant owner refuses customer because they are Christian - NOT ok
Muslim restaurant owner doesn't refuse customer but refuses to serve said customer pork - ok
Forcing Muslim restaurant owner to serve customer pork - NOT ok

Christian baker refuses customer because they are gay - NOT ok
Christian baker doesn't refuse customer but refuses to make gay specific cake - ok
Forcing Christian baker to make gay specific cake - NOT ok

I don't agree the Christian beliefs here, but that doesn't remove their rights.

Edited by 3mar 2017-12-05 2:30 PM

2017-12-05 2:34 PM

in reply to: 3mar

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

but whats a custom cake. happy marriage to bill and bob. you wont write their names on it, thats custom?

or is it a penis cake. theres a HUGE amount of information that no one here seems to know.

2017-12-05 2:39 PM

in reply to: 3mar

Champion

10154

Alabama

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/12/04/supreme-court-mast...

Guy makes a pretty good case for himself. Seems like a reasonable me.

2017-12-05 2:40 PM

in reply to: dmiller5

Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

You mean it's not just a tower of flour and sugar.......it's a penis???

3mar

2017-12-05 2:42 PM

in reply to: dmiller5

1502

Katy, Texas

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

It's a tricky situation because of what he does. The guy makes wedding cakes. I firmly believe he shouldn't be able to refuse their business, but at what point is it infringing on his rights.

Let me ask you this, would you say a Muslim butcher should have the right to refuse to slaughter a pig brought in by a Christian?

2017-12-06 1:53 PM

in reply to: 3mar

Champion

10154

Alabama

Subject: RE: Well if this don't take the cake....

Two years ago Justice Kennedy wrote the majority opinion in the 5/4 SSM split decision:

“Indeed with respect to this asserted basis for excluding same-sex couples from the right to marry, it is appropriate to observe these cases involve only the rights of two consenting adults whose marriages would pose no risk of harm to themselves or third parties. It must be emphasized that religions, and those who adhere to religious doctrines, may continue to advocate with utmost, sincere conviction that, by divine precepts, same-sex marriage should not be condoned."

Hmmm...not exactly the case.