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2018-01-20 8:09 PM

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Lesmurdie, Perth
Subject: Confused Keto Diet
Recently I have been bombarded my information about the Keto Diet, and how some endurance athletes who are now follow it. To be honest I don't like the idea, and I can't deny I like my Carbohydrates. I am training for a Sprint and Olympic Distances and as they are more intense form of endurance, Would I be right in saying the High Carb diet I am on dnow, as being the best for this distance in Triathlons

Also am I right in saying that even those some professional Triathlete are now on a kto diet, but wouldn't there be as many Triathlete on a High Carbohydrates Diet?




2018-01-21 7:04 AM
in reply to: Oggi

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Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet
Dietary fads come and go, including among recreational and professional athletes. In general I think you are better off focusing on good basic nutrition. Most triathletes can "afford" to take in plenty of carbs, since these provide easily accessible fuel for endurance training. I know when I am not training heavily I can eat a lot fewer carbs than when I am putting in 12-15 hours a week in peak HIM training. If I'm taking time off or training less than an hour a day, I'm fine with meals like fish and salad or stir-fried veggies for dinner. Try to do that in a big training week and I'm going to wake up ravenous between midnight and 2 AM, no matter how much fish or salad (or even high-fat foods like steak) I eat!

You can attempt to "train" your body to burn fat more efficiently with a low-carb diet, but this may well compromise training and recovery. I think unless you have a compelling medical reason like obesity or diabetes to follow a very low-carb diet, it's better to make sure that the carbs you do take in are healthy ones (whole grains, fruit, carb-rich veggies like yams and squash that provide a lot of other nutrients), and not empty calories with no redeeming nutritional value beyond quick energy (like refined grains and sugars), get adequate protein and calories to support your training, and eat a good variety of fruits and veggies.
2018-01-22 1:09 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Lesmurdie, Perth
Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet
Thankyou so much Hot Runner, I feel a lot more confidence that I am doing the right thing, plus I live on a orchard, and I could never say no to such a variety of Fruit and Vegetables
2018-01-22 10:24 AM
in reply to: Oggi

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Cypress, Texas
Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet

1) The High Fat Low Carb Diet is NOT for sprints of Olympic races.  It is for Ultra Distance Races (i.e. 50 mile runs, 100 mile runs, Ironman races, double Ironman races).  Fat fuel your muscles at a slower rate than carbs do.  If you are going long and slow it has a benefits, but if you are going fast and short those benefit are not performance based (just for people like diabetics that can be on a carb plan).  

2) Carbs are required for high intensity (i.e. going out fast to get a good position at the beginning of the race, passing people, climbing hills, kicking at the end of the race).  Most people can store enough carbs to get through a 2 hours race with no need to refuel.  Sprint can be done one carbs with little to no refueling. Olympic races are a piece of cake to get through on carbs.  You really can't do too much to mess up a fuel plan on a race that short.  When you get into the 70.3 races refuel become more important and it is more difficult to get right.  When you go to the Ultra distance 140.6 is where the high fat low carb diet really starts to make a difference.  You are going slower so you can get by with out the quick energy that garbs provide and you move from a source of fuel that could run out to one that will last you through the length of Ulta races.  Even at the Ultra distance low carb high fat it is an extreme diet and not a good idea to experiment around with.  You should work with someone that knows the diet and can help you make sure you are getting all your essential nutrients, that you are focusing on the right types of foods, that you maintain a healthy body composition, etc.  Yes, there are pros that use this diet.  Especially at Ultra distance.  They tend to be better positioned to have the support team to help them with an extreme diet.  For every Pro you find on that diet you can find 5 pros that are on Carb diets.  Carb diets are the best for most people (including the top pros).

So...I would not recommend the Ketos diet unless you are doing ultra distance races or have diabetes or other condition that require a low carb diet.  I would recommend that you don't do it alone.  The diet only works if done right so get some one that can evaluate how you are doing with it and help you make required adjustments along the way. 

2018-01-22 1:18 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

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Elkins Park, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet
Originally posted by BlueBoy26

1) The High Fat Low Carb Diet is NOT for sprints of Olympic races.  It is for Ultra Distance Races (i.e. 50 mile runs, 100 mile runs, Ironman races, double Ironman races).  Fat fuel your muscles at a slower rate than carbs do.  If you are going long and slow it has a benefits, but if you are going fast and short those benefit are not performance based (just for people like diabetics that can be on a carb plan).  

2) Carbs are required for high intensity (i.e. going out fast to get a good position at the beginning of the race, passing people, climbing hills, kicking at the end of the race).  Most people can store enough carbs to get through a 2 hours race with no need to refuel.  Sprint can be done one carbs with little to no refueling. Olympic races are a piece of cake to get through on carbs.  You really can't do too much to mess up a fuel plan on a race that short.  When you get into the 70.3 races refuel become more important and it is more difficult to get right.  When you go to the Ultra distance 140.6 is where the high fat low carb diet really starts to make a difference.  You are going slower so you can get by with out the quick energy that garbs provide and you move from a source of fuel that could run out to one that will last you through the length of Ulta races.  Even at the Ultra distance low carb high fat it is an extreme diet and not a good idea to experiment around with.  You should work with someone that knows the diet and can help you make sure you are getting all your essential nutrients, that you are focusing on the right types of foods, that you maintain a healthy body composition, etc.  Yes, there are pros that use this diet.  Especially at Ultra distance.  They tend to be better positioned to have the support team to help them with an extreme diet.  For every Pro you find on that diet you can find 5 pros that are on Carb diets.  Carb diets are the best for most people (including the top pros).

So...I would not recommend the Ketos diet unless you are doing ultra distance races or have diabetes or other condition that require a low carb diet.  I would recommend that you don't do it alone.  The diet only works if done right so get some one that can evaluate how you are doing with it and help you make required adjustments along the way. 




I think this is a pretty great analysis. I have doing my own research with regards Keto and triathlon. My opinion is that it may be helpful to be on a high fat diet during the base phase of your training, but to cycle carbs back into you nutrition plan when approaching the racing and/or high intensity part of you season. As mentioned above, it is almost completely useless for short course racing.

It so happens that my wife wants to try Keto for weight loss purposes starting in February. I said I would do it as well, so I will post some of my experiences in the next couple of months.
2018-01-23 9:50 AM
in reply to: toastygloveman

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Cypress, Texas
Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet

Originally posted by toastygloveman I think this is a pretty great analysis. I have doing my own research with regards Keto and triathlon. My opinion is that it may be helpful to be on a high fat diet during the base phase of your training, but to cycle carbs back into you nutrition plan when approaching the racing and/or high intensity part of you season. As mentioned above, it is almost completely useless for short course racing. It so happens that my wife wants to try Keto for weight loss purposes starting in February. I said I would do it as well, so I will post some of my experiences in the next couple of months.

 

I am NOT the expert on Keto or high fat low carb diets, but he guy that got me into Triathlons 3-1/2 years ago qualified for Kona on a HFLC diet so I was curiouse and looked into the diet and picked his brain as much as I could before coming to the conclusion that I would stick with the High Carb diet.  The guy I knew on the diet trained him seld to do 4-6 hours bike rides on nothing but water.  He said that it was a good fule source for a limited period of time, but not something that he would do year round.  He went really strict on his diet about 3 months before a race and would eat anything with carbs no grains, no fruit, no starchy vegtables, etc.  I knew he was getting strick because he wouldn't even drink beer because it had carbs and he really liked beer.  For work outs he could take avacado shakes and the like to refuel.  I am not sure what he did on race day, but from what I have read if you are on a strict high fat low carb diet your body can be trained to burn fat 2-3 times faster than it would when you are eating carbs.  If you go off the diet you body drops back down 2-3 times in a the matter of days.  Some people try to do the Keto diet then carb load 2-3 days before their race and are at the same place they would have been if they had done the carb diet all along. I saw where one study had tried to Keto diet all the way up to race day and through the swim and didn't start cards until they got on the bike.  They then took carbs on the bike at the same rate a carb diet athlete would.  That seemed to work.  The athletes reported that they had never felt as much energy in a full Ironman race as they did on that plan. 

 

The other benefit that I assume that you are thinking of with the diet plan and using it in the base phase is the change in your body composition.  I have seen multiple competitive triathletes experience the ability to reduce their body fat percentage when they move to the High Fat Low Carb diet.  Even the ones that have been Elite or Kona Qualifiers on Carb diets say that their body composition changes on the HFLC diet to where they can get to a lower body fat than they could with a carb diet.  The guy I knew on the diet have regular appointments with a physician every month to make sure his body fat didn't drop too low (and to make sure everything else was going as it should with his diet and training).  I am not sure how the body composition changes when go off the diet or how fast that fat comes back.  The guy I know felt that it was cutting out the wheat that made the difference in the body fat when he went to the HCLF diet. After he did Kona he went off the HFLC diet.  I think that was probably just during recover and they he went back to it for future races. 

 

When I was researching this one of the pro's who was on it said that he went back to a carb diet because the HFLC didn't improve his race.  Yes he could  change his energy source  from Carbs to fat but competing on a Fat diet didn't make him faster than competing on a Carb diet. If you get your diet wrong on carbs you could Bonk and hve it cost you your race.  That isn't an issue with Fat diets, but as long as he was nailing his carc plan he competed better on that diet because it provided the quick energy that he need to for quick speed in a race.



2018-01-23 1:41 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

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Elkins Park, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet
Originally posted by BlueBoy26

Originally posted by toastygloveman I think this is a pretty great analysis. I have doing my own research with regards Keto and triathlon. My opinion is that it may be helpful to be on a high fat diet during the base phase of your training, but to cycle carbs back into you nutrition plan when approaching the racing and/or high intensity part of you season. As mentioned above, it is almost completely useless for short course racing. It so happens that my wife wants to try Keto for weight loss purposes starting in February. I said I would do it as well, so I will post some of my experiences in the next couple of months.

 

I am NOT the expert on Keto or high fat low carb diets, but he guy that got me into Triathlons 3-1/2 years ago qualified for Kona on a HFLC diet so I was curiouse and looked into the diet and picked his brain as much as I could before coming to the conclusion that I would stick with the High Carb diet.  The guy I knew on the diet trained him seld to do 4-6 hours bike rides on nothing but water.  He said that it was a good fule source for a limited period of time, but not something that he would do year round.  He went really strict on his diet about 3 months before a race and would eat anything with carbs no grains, no fruit, no starchy vegtables, etc.  I knew he was getting strick because he wouldn't even drink beer because it had carbs and he really liked beer.  For work outs he could take avacado shakes and the like to refuel.  I am not sure what he did on race day, but from what I have read if you are on a strict high fat low carb diet your body can be trained to burn fat 2-3 times faster than it would when you are eating carbs.  If you go off the diet you body drops back down 2-3 times in a the matter of days.  Some people try to do the Keto diet then carb load 2-3 days before their race and are at the same place they would have been if they had done the carb diet all along. I saw where one study had tried to Keto diet all the way up to race day and through the swim and didn't start cards until they got on the bike.  They then took carbs on the bike at the same rate a carb diet athlete would.  That seemed to work.  The athletes reported that they had never felt as much energy in a full Ironman race as they did on that plan. 

 

The other benefit that I assume that you are thinking of with the diet plan and using it in the base phase is the change in your body composition.  I have seen multiple competitive triathletes experience the ability to reduce their body fat percentage when they move to the High Fat Low Carb diet.  Even the ones that have been Elite or Kona Qualifiers on Carb diets say that their body composition changes on the HFLC diet to where they can get to a lower body fat than they could with a carb diet.  The guy I knew on the diet have regular appointments with a physician every month to make sure his body fat didn't drop too low (and to make sure everything else was going as it should with his diet and training).  I am not sure how the body composition changes when go off the diet or how fast that fat comes back.  The guy I know felt that it was cutting out the wheat that made the difference in the body fat when he went to the HCLF diet. After he did Kona he went off the HFLC diet.  I think that was probably just during recover and they he went back to it for future races. 

 

When I was researching this one of the pro's who was on it said that he went back to a carb diet because the HFLC didn't improve his race.  Yes he could  change his energy source  from Carbs to fat but competing on a Fat diet didn't make him faster than competing on a Carb diet. If you get your diet wrong on carbs you could Bonk and hve it cost you your race.  That isn't an issue with Fat diets, but as long as he was nailing his carc plan he competed better on that diet because it provided the quick energy that he need to for quick speed in a race.




It sounds like you know a lot about HFLC. I might have some questions for you in the future!! I totally agree with you end statement about not racing faster. HFLC can help give your body the ability to utilize fat as an additional energy source, but that does not change the fact that fat is like unleaded gasoline and carbs like rocket fuel. I think there is something to be said about being "fat adapted" and being able to utilize both sources of energy (fat to stabilize energy and prevent bonking and carbs for speed). I haven't figured out quite how to do that yet... but I am pretty sure that it is NOT Keto.
2018-01-23 8:54 PM
in reply to: #5235731

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Lesmurdie, Perth
Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet
I appreciate everyone’s advice but my focus is going to be Olympic Distance so I believe the High Carbohydrate Diet. Even if I was to go for longer distance down the track I believe a HC diet provides the best results
2018-01-23 9:16 PM
in reply to: #5236015

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Lesmurdie, Perth
Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet
Another question as a triathlete you can still achieve a great physique on a High Carbohydrate Diet?
2018-01-23 10:44 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet
What is your definition of a great physique? Really "built"-looking, or optimized to carry your particular body type at maximum speed for your chosen distance (i.e. being able to maintain a healthy racing weight)? Those are quite different things for many people, especially guys. There is often some trade-off between carrying the extra muscle-weight to achieve the "built" look, and optimal racing weight, especially for long-course tri. Many pro triathletes, if you meet them in person, look almost unhealthily lean when they are in peak form. Even more so for pure runners. For many years I lived in Eugene, Oregon, and we often had elite athletes in town for meets or training camps. Those are some seriously skinny dudes. I used to joke that some of them looked like they needed help from the World Food Program. But theirs is a "great physique" for 10K and marathon....

Plus it is matter not only of diet but of genetics and training. Personally I've never struggled with weight, and have never consciously limited carbs, calories, or anything else.My weight does tend to vary about 5 pounds between off-season and peak training, and when I haven't been training at all, I'm about 10-15 pounds heavier. I once joked with my coach that you can predict my weight with the formula W = 130-T (W is weight, T is hours of training). It's been surprisingly accurate for years! I'm okay with any of those weights--130 is probably what most people would consider "healthy" for me, and I feel good at that weight. But I naturally tend to about 115 in peak racing shape, and I feel good then, too.

I just try to eat mostly nutritious, minimally processed food with a good balance of nutrients, eat when I am hungry, and make sure to get enough to fuel my training. But everyone's body is different, and I know others may have different experiences.

Edited by Hot Runner 2018-01-23 10:54 PM
2018-01-24 12:10 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Cypress, Texas
Subject: RE: Confused Keto Diet

Originally posted by Hot Runner Many pro triathletes, if you meet them in person, look almost unhealthily lean when they are in peak form. Even more so for pure runners. 

 

I have never had a problem with weight either.  160 was my highschool weight and when I didn't work out for a few years I got up to about 168.  When I was doing marathons my weight was 160-165.  As a Triathlete I have gained about 10 lbs.  When I was a pure runner my legs were skinny and I had not definition to my chest. My legs now look like a rugby player and my chest has got some depth to it.  I give cycling credit for the bulk in the legs and swimming for the bulk in the chest. I think any sport that you spend 10 hours training for can get you in a good physic.   



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