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Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations
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 2018-01-25 8:16 AM |
Veteran  485   Elmira, ON |  Subject: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut AllegationsLast night..at 1:30pm. Patrick Brown stepped down as the leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party. This is profound. Why? They were slated to win a super majority this summer in Ontario's provinicial election. Taking power from the current Liberal government who has been caught blowing billions on pointless projects. Interesting the story of the accusers, the response of Mr. Brown's campaign team..and how its all playing out: (Trigger warning for the snowflakes..the allegations in detail are in this story) https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/patrick-brown-denies-sexual-miscondu... Will the Conservatives still win the election? What happens now? |
| 2018-01-25 8:28 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655  | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations All I know, after reading that, is if my son ever asks me for advice on how to talk to women I'm going to say, "tell her she'd look really good on an elephant". LMAO The hits just keep coming......what a goofball. Edited by Left Brain 2018-01-25 8:30 AM |
| 2018-01-25 8:57 AM in reply to: TheCrownsOwn |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations First off, what is a Progressive Conservative Party? Seems like an oxymoron. Are they conservative or liberal? Just curious. So the girls were 18 and 19 and.....one he met at a bar and went with him to his apartment! She gave him oral sex and evidently changed her mind in the middle of it and left. The other went to a party at his house and went with him into his bedroom to "look at pictures". They kissed and laid back on the bed and she calls that assault. You are in the man's bedroom sitting on the bed and he kisses you and you claim assault? Maybe there is more to the story that I'm missing...I read it very fast. Poor judgement on his part perhaps but I think the term "assault" is a bit strong. In my mind, assault implies the use of force against someone else's will or an attack. I'm sure that is not the Black's Law Dictionary definition of assault. I suppose if I ever ran for public office there would be woman coming out of the woodwork that I went out with in HS and college. I'm sure they could claim 'unwanted sexual advances'.....since I was 13 I don't think I ever dated a girl where I did not try to kiss her and cop a feel. Come to think of it, I was 11 when I first made out I with a girl and felt her up. SMH. Men are pigs! Ok, most of us grow out of that stage....I guess some never do. |
| 2018-01-25 9:49 AM in reply to: Rogillio |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Neither were old enough to drink and both were provided alcohol before any sexual advances toward them by an employer or person who had some degree of control over them. I'm not a lawyer and I'll be glad to take that case to court for the girls. They can pay me only if I win. If the allegations are true.....and he sure quit in a hurry....that guy is a manipulative dipchit. I gotta tell you, bro.....not all men are pigs. Here's a good rule of thumb.....if you think you might have to explain your actions in the future, if the situation you find yourself in with a woman ever comes up, you should probably head down another road.....especially if alcohol and a large age difference are involved. We can "what if" it all day.......I'm just going to be laughing at how stupid SOME men are. |
| 2018-01-25 10:06 AM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Left Brain Neither were old enough to drink and both were provided alcohol before any sexual advances toward them by an employer or person who had some degree of control over them. I'm not a lawyer and I'll be glad to take that case to court for the girls. They can pay me only if I win. If the allegations are true.....and he sure quit in a hurry....that guy is a manipulative dipchit. I gotta tell you, bro.....not all men are pigs. Here's a good rule of thumb.....if you think you might have to explain your actions in the future, if the situation you find yourself in with a woman ever comes up, you should probably head down another road.....especially if alcohol and a large age difference are involved. We can "what if" it all day.......I'm just going to be laughing at how stupid SOME men are. They were 18 and the drinking age in Ontario was 19. In other parts of Canada the drinking age is 18. At any rate, they met at a bar! The girls were in the bar....and I'd lay dimes to donuts they were already drinking when they met him! Either they bought the drinks themselves or guys in the bar bought them drinks. So it's not like the politician guy took the two girls to a bar to get them liquored up. Least that's not how I read it. Pretty sure I read "....they MET in a bar" I guess I should have said some men are pigs....meaning me when I was young and had testosterone running thru my veins I had one thing on my mind, sex! Girls in my classes, girls I worked with, girls in bars....girls working the drive-thru window at Burger King! I always preferred older women though....and married a woman who is 6 years older than me.....she is my cougar! :-) Funny how when older women date young men they are called cougars not perverts or dirty old women. Edited by Rogillio 2018-01-25 10:19 AM |
| 2018-01-25 10:19 AM in reply to: Rogillio |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations I'm not going back to re-read....but I remember from the first reading that the first incident happened when the kid was in high school....which made the knucklehead 29. Just stop. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with you when you were 18. This guy is an idiot.....and he just got called on it....which made him pack up and get the hell out as fast as he could. End of story. Another tale of woe. HAHAHAHAHA!!!! |
| 2018-01-25 12:16 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 485 Elmira, ON | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations So just after reading your guys responses: 1)Progressive Conservative Party is the "Right of Center" part in Ontario. I wouldn't read to much into the "progressive" comment. It has a much different meaning in the states than Canada. Back like 100 years ago the progressive party and conservative party in Ontario combined to form the PC's. You can be progressive and conservative. 2)Patrick Brown was not a fiscal conservative. More of a "red tory" so fiscally social...sort of. Not as much as the liberals or NDP's...but definitely not what I would consider a true conservative. 3)Left Brain: You keep referring to the 18 year old as a kid. In the eyes of Canada, she is an adult. Aside from Ontario (which has some of the strictest alcohol legislation in the world outside the middle east..not joking, they are very strict) she is legal drinking age pretty much anywhere. At 18, I lived on my own and was in University... So at 18 the first girl was out late, at a bar, hanging out after hours. If she was a minor (in Canada thats under the age of 16) I'd be asking where were the parents...but at 18...with the privileges and benefits of being an adult also comes certain responsibilities. Both personal and to the public. 4)He resigned but maintains he did nothing wrong and denies the accusations. He isn't being hit for sexual assault, but sexual misconduct. No one is saying he raped or assaulted anyone to my knowledge. He only resigned after his campaign staff starting jumping ship and the party elite said "time to hit the road." Whether guilty or innocent..I think this is profound. The guy has not been found guilty in a court of law, all the facts are not out...all that has happened is 2 women have come forward, literally months before an election making accusations. 5)The second girl was in University at the time...met him on a plane and apparantly it was a flirtatious event. Then when she needed a summer job she contacted him. In return he brought her on to his parliamentary team. Stupid on his part...yup. Hindsite is 20/20 though. I really ponder if there is more to this story. I have seen ladies use their female aspects to land a job before. Common in some industries more than others... (Finance,etc.) I think it sets equal rights behind...but thats my opinion. 6) He says this stuff never happened. But for arguments sake lets say it did...I'd ask "what the hell were you thinking?" Just poor judgement overall by a member of parliament (he worked for the federal government for the first alleged act) and was a member of provincial parliament for the second. The way its being treated is very different that in America. I'm not saying I agree with the witch hunt, nor the eventual media and social media circus thats happening...but if you gave me a choice between this, and that governer down in the states who had similar accusations last month...I'd probably take this approach. Question is...what happens now? Who leads the PC's into the upcoming election this year? Do the tax and spend liberals stay in power or do voters do something different? One helluva mess..... |
| 2018-01-25 12:27 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations 18 IS a kid to an adult. I have twin 18 year olds running around my house........and that means that on any given day I might have 6-8 other 18 year old girls running around....and in the summer they're all in the pool or wherever they are with barely any clothes on. They're kids, and any adult male in a position of power, be it by age, experience, job, or whatever should know better than to ever even get close to sex with one of them. I get tired of listening to stupid crap in this area........hell, I was in the Marine Corps at 18, so friggin' what....what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING in this discussion. I don't care if you were on your own or living with your grandma in her basement.....just don't try to tell me that a grown man in a position of power having sex, or trying to have sex, with an 18 year old girl IN HIGH SCHOOL is ok. That's bullchit......and it's going to be bullchit no matter how it gets spun. Edited by Left Brain 2018-01-25 12:36 PM |
| 2018-01-25 12:50 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Left Brain 18 IS a kid to an adult. I have twin 18 year olds running around my house........and that means that on any given day I might have 6-8 other 18 year old girls running around....and in the summer they're all in the pool or wherever they are with barely any clothes on. They're kids, and any adult male in a position of power, be it by age, experience, job, or whatever should know better than to ever even get close to sex with one of them. I get tired of listening to stupid crap in this area........hell, I was in the Marine Corps at 18, so friggin' what....what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING in this discussion. I don't care if you were on your own or living with your grandma in her basement.....just don't try to tell me that a grown man in a position of power having sex, or trying to have sex, with an 18 year old girl IN HIGH SCHOOL is ok. That's bullchit......and it's going to be bullchit no matter how it gets spun. First you attack my post now you attack the OP?! WTF?! Lighten up Francis. :-) I understand your position and you've made it clear many times here. You are posting from the position of protective father of what I assume are 4 'good girls'. Not all girls are good girls. In fact, some are outright sluts and go out of their way to find and seduce older men. And this happens even with girls younger than 18 too. I agree men in positions of power ought to be smart enough to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. When I was a manager and had to council a female employee I always left the door open and/or had someone else in the room. I was NEVER alone with a female employee. |
| 2018-01-25 12:56 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 485 Elmira, ON | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations I'm not arguing the morality of the situation. You and I are on the same page 100% with that. A grown man going after teenagers...is...not good. But thats my moral standard, and yours. But just out of curiosity...if 18 is a kid to you...when do you consider someone an adult? And why does an 18 year old get to choose to goto a bar, converse with a man, choose to go back to his home...yet is still considered a child? If your 18 year olds are children, are they kept at home and treated like children? |
| 2018-01-25 12:58 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Veteran 485 Elmira, ON | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Left Brain 18 IS a kid to an adult. I have twin 18 year olds running around my house........and that means that on any given day I might have 6-8 other 18 year old girls running around....and in the summer they're all in the pool or wherever they are with barely any clothes on. They're kids, and any adult male in a position of power, be it by age, experience, job, or whatever should know better than to ever even get close to sex with one of them. I get tired of listening to stupid crap in this area........hell, I was in the Marine Corps at 18, so friggin' what....what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING in this discussion. I don't care if you were on your own or living with your grandma in her basement.....just don't try to tell me that a grown man in a position of power having sex, or trying to have sex, with an 18 year old girl IN HIGH SCHOOL is ok. That's bullchit......and it's going to be bullchit no matter how it gets spun. First you attack my post now you attack the OP?! WTF?! Lighten up Francis. :-) I understand your position and you've made it clear many times here. You are posting from the position of protective father of what I assume are 4 'good girls'. Not all girls are good girls. In fact, some are outright sluts and go out of their way to find and seduce older men. And this happens even with girls younger than 18 too. I agree men in positions of power ought to be smart enough to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. When I was a manager and had to council a female employee I always left the door open and/or had someone else in the room. I was NEVER alone with a female employee. I got hit on as a lifeguard by many ladies in their 30's and 40's. Can't say I ever went back to there homes, condos, or such. Older women were gross...lol. The social rule: Half your age + 7...no younger! When was that rule forgotten!!  |
| 2018-01-25 1:30 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations CrownsOwn - it's not the age, it's the age/power/experience difference. Are my 18 year olds having sex..... maybe, probably....I've had dozens of conversations with them about it, but I don't ask them. If I find out they are and it's with another kid in high school, or a kid that just graduated, that person has no problem with me if he treats my girls well. Let me find out my 18 year old is having sex with one of her teachers at his house when his wife is gone. Or that one of her teachers is having her over for some beers and maybe smoking a little weed. I promise you, on all you consider holy, I'm going to prison.......there is no question about it.....I have references that will verify this. So if you are one of those guys (not you Crown, the collective "you") who would take advantage of your position, or power, or experience with a kid in high school......I haveno use for you. I wouldn't pizz on you if you were on fire. And I damn sure don't care if your career or your life is over.
Edited by Left Brain 2018-01-25 1:40 PM |
| 2018-01-25 6:20 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Left Brain CrownsOwn - it's not the age, it's the age/power/experience difference. Are my 18 year olds having sex..... maybe, probably....I've had dozens of conversations with them about it, but I don't ask them. If I find out they are and it's with another kid in high school, or a kid that just graduated, that person has no problem with me if he treats my girls well. Let me find out my 18 year old is having sex with one of her teachers at his house when his wife is gone. Or that one of her teachers is having her over for some beers and maybe smoking a little weed. I promise you, on all you consider holy, I'm going to prison.......there is no question about it.....I have references that will verify this. So if you are one of those guys (not you Crown, the collective "you") who would take advantage of your position, or power, or experience with a kid in high school......I haveno use for you. I wouldn't pizz on you if you were on fire. And I damn sure don't care if your career or your life is over.
So if one of your girls at 18 go off to college and falls for a 26 yo grad student teaching a freashman class are you going to break his knees with a baseball bat? Point being, at what age does a women assume some responsibility for a relationship? I’m not defending the Canadian politician but it’s not as cut as dry as you say. The first girl was out in an adult bar possibly looking for guys. **gasp**. She was 18, not 12. She and her GF found a guy and went to his house! Can you be more stupid/naive? Was he a “predator” or just a 29 yo guy out looking to bang anything he could? I understand the anger you have displayed in your posts and as a father with a daughter I get it. But, short of forcable rape, there are two wills in every relationship of sexual encounter. At some point the woman shares responsibility. Flame or attack me again all you want. I think you know by now I speak my mind and voice my opinion. |
| 2018-01-25 8:57 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Left Brain So if one of your girls at 18 go off to college and falls for a 26 yo grad student teaching a freashman class are you going to break his knees with a baseball bat? Point being, at what age does a women assume some responsibility for a relationship? I’m not defending the Canadian politician but it’s not as cut as dry as you say. The first girl was out in an adult bar possibly looking for guys. **gasp**. She was 18, not 12. She and her GF found a guy and went to his house! Can you be more stupid/naive? Was he a “predator” or just a 29 yo guy out looking to bang anything he could? I understand the anger you have displayed in your posts and as a father with a daughter I get it. But, short of forcable rape, there are two wills in every relationship of sexual encounter. At some point the woman shares responsibility. Flame or attack me again all you want. I think you know by now I speak my mind and voice my opinion. CrownsOwn - it's not the age, it's the age/power/experience difference. Are my 18 year olds having sex..... maybe, probably....I've had dozens of conversations with them about it, but I don't ask them. If I find out they are and it's with another kid in high school, or a kid that just graduated, that person has no problem with me if he treats my girls well. Let me find out my 18 year old is having sex with one of her teachers at his house when his wife is gone. Or that one of her teachers is having her over for some beers and maybe smoking a little weed. I promise you, on all you consider holy, I'm going to prison.......there is no question about it.....I have references that will verify this. So if you are one of those guys (not you Crown, the collective "you") who would take advantage of your position, or power, or experience with a kid in high school......I haveno use for you. I wouldn't pizz on you if you were on fire. And I damn sure don't care if your career or your life is over.
Well geez, i suppose I'll start at the bottom and work my way up. Dude, flaming or attacking you? Surely you aren't playing the victim here. LOL Let's be fair. Neither you, nor I, can be "flamed or attacked".....not after all we have posted here. I suppose you can if you want to, but not me. Bring it. Hopefully there ARE two wills with every sexual encounter.....but that requires, by definition, that those two wills are EXACTLY equal. If not, you risk being accused, and rightfully so, of sexual abuse. EQUAL is the operative term here. Learn it......it's the law. I think you understand, but in case you don't, it has nothing to do with "my anger". If you (again, the collective you) take advantage of the innocence of one of my kids you will find, on the other side, an emotion WAY beyond anger. I wish I had a word for it, or could describe it, but I don't think I can. I suppose you could mistake it for anger, but it's much more visceral than anger. Just don't hurt my kids.......I don't know how else to say it. I won't be responsible if you do.....that's the State's work. A 29 year old guy out looking to bang anything he could? How about go find a girl. or guy, looking for the same thing? Other than that.......see paragraph 4. Yeah, the Canadian politician azzhole's behavior is EXACTLY as cut and dry as I think it is. I have done all I could to teach my girls to be strong and sure. I hope they will one day fall in love with someone who treats them like my grandfather treated my grandma, and my father treated my mom, and I have tried to treat my wife. I won't care if they are 26 or 56. I know bullchit, abusive, crap by men when I see it.....and so do you. I'm not fooled by stupid arguments, or stupid men.....you're not stupid, so don't defend stupidity, or abuse. This is REALLY easy stuff. Edited by Left Brain 2018-01-25 9:22 PM |
| 2018-01-26 7:16 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Left Brain So if one of your girls at 18 go off to college and falls for a 26 yo grad student teaching a freashman class are you going to break his knees with a baseball bat? Point being, at what age does a women assume some responsibility for a relationship? I’m not defending the Canadian politician but it’s not as cut as dry as you say. The first girl was out in an adult bar possibly looking for guys. **gasp**. She was 18, not 12. She and her GF found a guy and went to his house! Can you be more stupid/naive? Was he a “predator” or just a 29 yo guy out looking to bang anything he could? I understand the anger you have displayed in your posts and as a father with a daughter I get it. But, short of forcable rape, there are two wills in every relationship of sexual encounter. At some point the woman shares responsibility. Flame or attack me again all you want. I think you know by now I speak my mind and voice my opinion. CrownsOwn - it's not the age, it's the age/power/experience difference. Are my 18 year olds having sex..... maybe, probably....I've had dozens of conversations with them about it, but I don't ask them. If I find out they are and it's with another kid in high school, or a kid that just graduated, that person has no problem with me if he treats my girls well. Let me find out my 18 year old is having sex with one of her teachers at his house when his wife is gone. Or that one of her teachers is having her over for some beers and maybe smoking a little weed. I promise you, on all you consider holy, I'm going to prison.......there is no question about it.....I have references that will verify this. So if you are one of those guys (not you Crown, the collective "you") who would take advantage of your position, or power, or experience with a kid in high school......I haveno use for you. I wouldn't pizz on you if you were on fire. And I damn sure don't care if your career or your life is over.
Well geez, i suppose I'll start at the bottom and work my way up. Dude, flaming or attacking you? Surely you aren't playing the victim here. LOL Let's be fair. Neither you, nor I, can be "flamed or attacked".....not after all we have posted here. I suppose you can if you want to, but not me. Bring it. Hopefully there ARE two wills with every sexual encounter.....but that requires, by definition, that those two wills are EXACTLY equal. If not, you risk being accused, and rightfully so, of sexual abuse. EQUAL is the operative term here. Learn it......it's the law. I think you understand, but in case you don't, it has nothing to do with "my anger". If you (again, the collective you) take advantage of the innocence of one of my kids you will find, on the other side, an emotion WAY beyond anger. I wish I had a word for it, or could describe it, but I don't think I can. I suppose you could mistake it for anger, but it's much more visceral than anger. Just don't hurt my kids.......I don't know how else to say it. I won't be responsible if you do.....that's the State's work. A 29 year old guy out looking to bang anything he could? How about go find a girl. or guy, looking for the same thing? Other than that.......see paragraph 4. Yeah, the Canadian politician azzhole's behavior is EXACTLY as cut and dry as I think it is. I have done all I could to teach my girls to be strong and sure. I hope they will one day fall in love with someone who treats them like my grandfather treated my grandma, and my father treated my mom, and I have tried to treat my wife. I won't care if they are 26 or 56. I know bullchit, abusive, crap by men when I see it.....and so do you. I'm not fooled by stupid arguments, or stupid men.....you're not stupid, so don't defend stupidity, or abuse. This is REALLY easy stuff. OK, I'll start from the top down. First off, touche. I have no bidness playing the victim with all chit I dish out here. My bad. I know it is human nature to personalize things like this. But you have misconstrued my attempting to see both sides as defending the perp. While it probably happened, he denies it ever happened and there is always the possibility that it did not happen or not the way the girls said it happened. I'm not inclined to take anyone's word as gospel. There is a thing called: "Post-coital tristesse (PCT) or post-coital dysphoria (PCD) is the feeling of sadness, anxiety, agitation or aggression after sexual intercourse. Its name comes from New Latin postcoitalis and French tristesse, literally "sadness"." Sort of a buyers remorse. I personally know someone who was charged with rape after consensual intercourse. She later said she didn't want to press charges and they released him. But he said has a record of being arrested for rape. I also have a good friend that was accused of sexual harassment. He and one of his female employee we checking into a hotel on business travel. Being older and a father his protection instinct caused him to ask her what room she was in. Later she filed a complaint with HR claiming that she felt he was hitting on her by asking for her room number presumably so he could come by her room later that night. People in positions of power, especially politicians, are easy targets and there is always the possibility that the accuser is seeking to damage the man politically. And there is a 'guilty until proven innocent' mentality when it comes to sexual harassment. Even if it true 95% of the time, there is still that 5% that are unjustly accused....like the Lacrosse players. I don't know what happened in that bar and neither do you. Did anything happen? Did he use his power to seduce them? Did they seduce him and ask to go to his apartment? Did they even know he was a member of parliament? Maybe they did and that is why they asked him to go to his room. Or maybe they did and he used that as leverage to get them to go back to his apartment? Those first two girls did not work for him. He was not their boss! He had no power over them anymore than a Rock Star has power over groupies. There were two girls in a bar drinking and met the guy and they ended up going to his apartment. You said he was 29. They were 18. Would I want my daughter going to a 29 yo's apartment? Hail no! But at some point she has to use her head. There are always two sides to every story and I am willing to listen and consider to both sides. You seem of to be of the mindset that if the girls said it happened then that is exactly what happened and are ready to lynch the guy. I was married and had a kid on the way when I was 29 but had I not been and had met some 18 yo girls in a bar drinking I might would have invited them to my apartment too. Just depends. It's hard to think back to when I was 29 and how I viewed younger women. Might have also depended how they looked. Some 18 yo girls look 22 and some look 16. I didn't read the other case very closely but it does appear he was in a 'power position' over her at the time and that, if it happened as she said it did, is reprehensible. In the final analysis you will believe as you believe and I will believe as I believe and no one in Canada is going to consult either of us on what we think about this guy. I have a special needs daughter who is very naïve and gullible and I am very protective of her and always on guard that someone will exploit her naiveté and, like you, have no qualms about spending the rest of my life behind bars if someone were to harm either of my kids. Yes, in a perfect world consenting adults should be equals. Realistically there will always be men who use their positions to get sex and there will always be woman who use sex to gurney favor and there will always be people who just flat out lie or make up details to embellish what really happened. OK, I'm going to consciously contradict myself now. I have a running debate with a good friend who opposes the death penalty and is always posting on FB cases where someone on death row who was convicted of murder is found to be innocent and released from prison after 20 years because DNA evidence proved he didn't do the crime. So he uses these (rare) cases to oppose the death penalty. I disagree and argue that MOST of the time the system works. But this is way off topic. As long as people are involved nothing is cut and dry. We will just have to disagree on this. |
| 2018-01-26 8:17 AM in reply to: Rogillio |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Left Brain OK, I'll start from the top down. First off, touche. I have no bidness playing the victim with all chit I dish out here. My bad. I know it is human nature to personalize things like this. But you have misconstrued my attempting to see both sides as defending the perp. While it probably happened, he denies it ever happened and there is always the possibility that it did not happen or not the way the girls said it happened. I'm not inclined to take anyone's word as gospel. There is a thing called: "Post-coital tristesse (PCT) or post-coital dysphoria (PCD) is the feeling of sadness, anxiety, agitation or aggression after sexual intercourse. Its name comes from New Latin postcoitalis and French tristesse, literally "sadness"." Sort of a buyers remorse. I personally know someone who was charged with rape after consensual intercourse. She later said she didn't want to press charges and they released him. But he said has a record of being arrested for rape. I also have a good friend that was accused of sexual harassment. He and one of his female employee we checking into a hotel on business travel. Being older and a father his protection instinct caused him to ask her what room she was in. Later she filed a complaint with HR claiming that she felt he was hitting on her by asking for her room number presumably so he could come by her room later that night. People in positions of power, especially politicians, are easy targets and there is always the possibility that the accuser is seeking to damage the man politically. And there is a 'guilty until proven innocent' mentality when it comes to sexual harassment. Even if it true 95% of the time, there is still that 5% that are unjustly accused....like the Lacrosse players. I don't know what happened in that bar and neither do you. Did anything happen? Did he use his power to seduce them? Did they seduce him and ask to go to his apartment? Did they even know he was a member of parliament? Maybe they did and that is why they asked him to go to his room. Or maybe they did and he used that as leverage to get them to go back to his apartment? Those first two girls did not work for him. He was not their boss! He had no power over them anymore than a Rock Star has power over groupies. There were two girls in a bar drinking and met the guy and they ended up going to his apartment. You said he was 29. They were 18. Would I want my daughter going to a 29 yo's apartment? Hail no! But at some point she has to use her head. There are always two sides to every story and I am willing to listen and consider to both sides. You seem of to be of the mindset that if the girls said it happened then that is exactly what happened and are ready to lynch the guy. I was married and had a kid on the way when I was 29 but had I not been and had met some 18 yo girls in a bar drinking I might would have invited them to my apartment too. Just depends. It's hard to think back to when I was 29 and how I viewed younger women. Might have also depended how they looked. Some 18 yo girls look 22 and some look 16. I didn't read the other case very closely but it does appear he was in a 'power position' over her at the time and that, if it happened as she said it did, is reprehensible. In the final analysis you will believe as you believe and I will believe as I believe and no one in Canada is going to consult either of us on what we think about this guy. I have a special needs daughter who is very naïve and gullible and I am very protective of her and always on guard that someone will exploit her naiveté and, like you, have no qualms about spending the rest of my life behind bars if someone were to harm either of my kids. Yes, in a perfect world consenting adults should be equals. Realistically there will always be men who use their positions to get sex and there will always be woman who use sex to gurney favor and there will always be people who just flat out lie or make up details to embellish what really happened. OK, I'm going to consciously contradict myself now. I have a running debate with a good friend who opposes the death penalty and is always posting on FB cases where someone on death row who was convicted of murder is found to be innocent and released from prison after 20 years because DNA evidence proved he didn't do the crime. So he uses these (rare) cases to oppose the death penalty. I disagree and argue that MOST of the time the system works. But this is way off topic. As long as people are involved nothing is cut and dry. We will just have to disagree on this. Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Left Brain So if one of your girls at 18 go off to college and falls for a 26 yo grad student teaching a freashman class are you going to break his knees with a baseball bat? Point being, at what age does a women assume some responsibility for a relationship? I’m not defending the Canadian politician but it’s not as cut as dry as you say. The first girl was out in an adult bar possibly looking for guys. **gasp**. She was 18, not 12. She and her GF found a guy and went to his house! Can you be more stupid/naive? Was he a “predator” or just a 29 yo guy out looking to bang anything he could? I understand the anger you have displayed in your posts and as a father with a daughter I get it. But, short of forcable rape, there are two wills in every relationship of sexual encounter. At some point the woman shares responsibility. Flame or attack me again all you want. I think you know by now I speak my mind and voice my opinion. CrownsOwn - it's not the age, it's the age/power/experience difference. Are my 18 year olds having sex..... maybe, probably....I've had dozens of conversations with them about it, but I don't ask them. If I find out they are and it's with another kid in high school, or a kid that just graduated, that person has no problem with me if he treats my girls well. Let me find out my 18 year old is having sex with one of her teachers at his house when his wife is gone. Or that one of her teachers is having her over for some beers and maybe smoking a little weed. I promise you, on all you consider holy, I'm going to prison.......there is no question about it.....I have references that will verify this. So if you are one of those guys (not you Crown, the collective "you") who would take advantage of your position, or power, or experience with a kid in high school......I haveno use for you. I wouldn't pizz on you if you were on fire. And I damn sure don't care if your career or your life is over.
Well geez, i suppose I'll start at the bottom and work my way up. Dude, flaming or attacking you? Surely you aren't playing the victim here. LOL Let's be fair. Neither you, nor I, can be "flamed or attacked".....not after all we have posted here. I suppose you can if you want to, but not me. Bring it. Hopefully there ARE two wills with every sexual encounter.....but that requires, by definition, that those two wills are EXACTLY equal. If not, you risk being accused, and rightfully so, of sexual abuse. EQUAL is the operative term here. Learn it......it's the law. I think you understand, but in case you don't, it has nothing to do with "my anger". If you (again, the collective you) take advantage of the innocence of one of my kids you will find, on the other side, an emotion WAY beyond anger. I wish I had a word for it, or could describe it, but I don't think I can. I suppose you could mistake it for anger, but it's much more visceral than anger. Just don't hurt my kids.......I don't know how else to say it. I won't be responsible if you do.....that's the State's work. A 29 year old guy out looking to bang anything he could? How about go find a girl. or guy, looking for the same thing? Other than that.......see paragraph 4. Yeah, the Canadian politician azzhole's behavior is EXACTLY as cut and dry as I think it is. I have done all I could to teach my girls to be strong and sure. I hope they will one day fall in love with someone who treats them like my grandfather treated my grandma, and my father treated my mom, and I have tried to treat my wife. I won't care if they are 26 or 56. I know bullchit, abusive, crap by men when I see it.....and so do you. I'm not fooled by stupid arguments, or stupid men.....you're not stupid, so don't defend stupidity, or abuse. This is REALLY easy stuff. This is what I know and how I know it. As I have said before, my work involves investigating sexual crimes, along with other crimes. As such, I have probably interviewed 1000 or more people who were victims, witnesses, and suspects in sexual assault cases. It is the only crime that, after 30 years, I know the best way to investigate it is with the idea that the victim is not lying and the suspect is. I know that if I start there I'm going to be right way more than 9 out of 10 times. I know this as well......when you strip all the bullchit away it's almost ALWAYS cut and dry. Guilty or not guilty. High school age girl and 30 year old man.............nah........even if you think it's ok, the guy is still guilty of being an idiot.....go ask him, he resigned over it. Good riddance. |
| 2018-01-26 8:33 AM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations "In response to the allegations, Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. The following week, on April 5, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletic director Joe Alleva, and Duke president Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season." Good riddance? "On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three lacrosse players innocent of the rape allegations. Cooper stated that the players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."" Emphasis added by me. "The Attorney General's office later noted that Mangum (the accuse) had taken Ambien, methadone, Paxil, and amitriptyline, although when she began taking these medications is uncertain. She has a long history of mental problems and suffers from bipolar disorder." "At the time the rape allegations were made in March 2006, Mike Nifong was in the midst of a difficult Democratic primary election campaign to keep his position as Durham County District Attorney, facing strong opposition. It was understood that if Nifong lost the primary, he would very likely lose his job. Some commentators have opined that Nifong's prosecution of the Duke lacrosse players and his many statements to the media were driven by his political strategy to attract African-American voters." Your experiences differ from mine so it should come as no surprise we view this differently. Edited by Rogillio 2018-01-26 8:34 AM |
| 2018-01-26 8:58 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Rogillio "In response to the allegations, Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. The following week, on April 5, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletic director Joe Alleva, and Duke president Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season." Good riddance? "On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three lacrosse players innocent of the rape allegations. Cooper stated that the players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."" Emphasis added by me. "The Attorney General's office later noted that Mangum (the accuse) had taken Ambien, methadone, Paxil, and amitriptyline, although when she began taking these medications is uncertain. She has a long history of mental problems and suffers from bipolar disorder." "At the time the rape allegations were made in March 2006, Mike Nifong was in the midst of a difficult Democratic primary election campaign to keep his position as Durham County District Attorney, facing strong opposition. It was understood that if Nifong lost the primary, he would very likely lose his job. Some commentators have opined that Nifong's prosecution of the Duke lacrosse players and his many statements to the media were driven by his political strategy to attract African-American voters." Your experiences differ from mine so it should come as no surprise we view this differently. Yeah, that sucked for those guys. But I'll use your line back on you......we don't really know what happened, do we? We know it was a very bad victim so a prosecutable case was never going to happen. Pretty standard stuff. The lesson is, don't bring strippers to your house and that won't happen. And in case you think that's NOT the lesson.....find one of those players and ask them if they'd ever do it again. Edited by Left Brain 2018-01-26 8:59 AM |
| 2018-01-26 9:12 AM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Rogillio "In response to the allegations, Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. The following week, on April 5, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletic director Joe Alleva, and Duke president Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season." Good riddance? "On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three lacrosse players innocent of the rape allegations. Cooper stated that the players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."" Emphasis added by me. "The Attorney General's office later noted that Mangum (the accuse) had taken Ambien, methadone, Paxil, and amitriptyline, although when she began taking these medications is uncertain. She has a long history of mental problems and suffers from bipolar disorder." "At the time the rape allegations were made in March 2006, Mike Nifong was in the midst of a difficult Democratic primary election campaign to keep his position as Durham County District Attorney, facing strong opposition. It was understood that if Nifong lost the primary, he would very likely lose his job. Some commentators have opined that Nifong's prosecution of the Duke lacrosse players and his many statements to the media were driven by his political strategy to attract African-American voters." Your experiences differ from mine so it should come as no surprise we view this differently. Yeah, that sucked for those guys. But I'll use your line back on you......we don't really know what happened, do we? We know it was a very bad victim so a prosecutable case was never going to happen. Pretty standard stuff. The lesson is, don't bring strippers to your house and that won't happen. And in case you think that's NOT the lesson.....find one of those players and ask them if they'd ever do it again. Wow, sounds like you are blaming the victims of bogus allegations (proven false by DNA) and a rogue prosecutor. You are right we don't know what happened but we do know what didn't happen. DNA from several men were in her but not any DNA from any of the 53 member's DNA was in her. Of course, we could say the same to the Canadian girls in the bar.....don't get drunk and go to a man's apartment that you just met in a bar. Maybe we at least agree on that. Edited by Rogillio 2018-01-26 9:13 AM |
| 2018-01-26 9:25 AM in reply to: Rogillio |
Veteran 485 Elmira, ON | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations My wife read the storey in its entirety last night. Her comments: 1)Sign of the times. 18 year olds are still treated like kids. Given lots of freedom but no respnsibility. So though unfortunate, this doesnt surprise her. Any other generation and an 18year old knows what the situation is, and has the independance and mind to either willingly participate or not. 2)as an 18 year old she was hit on many times by oldermen. And women knew it, and turned it down. simple as that. This girl went to a bar, picked up and gave a guy some pleasure...10 years later she regrets it.... I'm not sure what power you think older men have over 18 year olds...and I get your a dad and your doing what every dad should be doing protecting his daughters... but what exactly do old perverts have over 18 year old adults? My wife knew men like that were gross and definitiviely avoided or denied any advance. And as a teenager I did the same with older women.... Has something changed with today's younger generation? |
| 2018-01-26 9:38 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations I'm not going back over the story.....and you keep referring to a bar. I'm talking about a high school student, which is what one of them was at the time. Hey, if it's no big deal, then why did Mr. progressive Conservative Bonehead resign? LOL So your wife agrees men like that are gross but they should hold public office??? LOL Edited by Left Brain 2018-01-26 9:39 AM |
| 2018-01-26 12:25 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 485 Elmira, ON | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by Left Brain I'm not going back over the story.....and you keep referring to a bar. I'm talking about a high school student, which is what one of them was at the time. Hey, if it's no big deal, then why did Mr. progressive Conservative Bonehead resign? LOL So your wife agrees men like that are gross but they should hold public office??? LOL Well ya. I keep saying it was a bar because thats where she met Patrick Brown. It wasn't Patrick trolling the high schools..it was the 18 year old in the bar..who went back with him to his home...then to his bedroom... The culture in Canada is much different than the states. I dont think he should have resigned tbh. You have a president and a past governor who were under similar allegations and nothing changed. I don't agree with that either. But at present...two anonymous women, 4 months before an election..who don't know eachother...but at the very same time...come forward to CTV then CBC..and tell their allegations. No criminal charges or civil actions have happened...and yet the mere allegation has led to his campaign team jumping ship and the party hierarchy to get his to step down. If your tasking the running of a country/province to the morals of a person vs. their ability to run a country...thats an unwinnable arguement. Your morals differ from mine which differ from the next person. Macron is the President of France...his wife is 30 years his senior....Trumps wife I'd imagine is 30 years his junior.... 29 seeing an 18 year old in my eyes is awful...but it isnt illegal...and if an 18 year old wants to do that..its her business. Whether I dislike it or not. Whether he is "gross" has no bearing on whether he can balance the books and serve the province. |
| 2018-01-26 12:33 PM in reply to: TheCrownsOwn |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Again, if there is nothing to worry about and it's not illegal then why would his whole team jump off the boat? I bet I know why.....they know things you don't know and don't want to be a part of it. Same reason the knucklehead resigned. Like I said, I don't suffer stupid people well......and at the very least, this guy is dumb as a box of crayons. Buh Bye and good riddance. |
| 2018-01-26 1:41 PM in reply to: TheCrownsOwn |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations Originally posted by TheCrownsOwn Originally posted by Left Brain I'm not going back over the story.....and you keep referring to a bar. I'm talking about a high school student, which is what one of them was at the time. Hey, if it's no big deal, then why did Mr. progressive Conservative Bonehead resign? LOL So your wife agrees men like that are gross but they should hold public office??? LOL Well ya. I keep saying it was a bar because thats where she met Patrick Brown. It wasn't Patrick trolling the high schools..it was the 18 year old in the bar..who went back with him to his home...then to his bedroom... The culture in Canada is much different than the states. I dont think he should have resigned tbh. You have a president and a past governor who were under similar allegations and nothing changed. I don't agree with that either. But at present...two anonymous women, 4 months before an election..who don't know eachother...but at the very same time...come forward to CTV then CBC..and tell their allegations. No criminal charges or civil actions have happened...and yet the mere allegation has led to his campaign team jumping ship and the party hierarchy to get his to step down. If your tasking the running of a country/province to the morals of a person vs. their ability to run a country...thats an unwinnable arguement. Your morals differ from mine which differ from the next person. Macron is the President of France...his wife is 30 years his senior....Trumps wife I'd imagine is 30 years his junior.... 29 seeing an 18 year old in my eyes is awful...but it isnt illegal...and if an 18 year old wants to do that..its her business. Whether I dislike it or not. Whether he is "gross" has no bearing on whether he can balance the books and serve the province. Agree. His staff likely resigned because they know the lynch mob mentality and know he wii assumed to be guilty. Timing is very suspicious. He’s been in public office for years right? Suddenly, before another election, these girls decide to come forward? Roy Moore was elected to the Alabama Supreme Court and no one came forward. Suddenly when he is running for a seat the democrats wanted really bad, poof! After it’s too late to replace Moore on the ballot, accusers show up. Go figure. The fact that they were in HS is irrelevant. The legal age of consent is 18. I also find the first story incredulous. She said he said, “Suck my d or put this in your mouth.” She wasn’t sure. Seriously? Who talks like that? Oh well, what’s done is done. This seems to be the new standard in politics. I expect we will see this tactic used a lot more going forward as people learn all you have to do is accuse someone to destroy them. If it were me, I’d sue them for slander and let a jury decide who is lying. |
| 2018-01-26 1:46 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives Steps Down Amid Sexual Miscondut Allegations So you'd sue them because YOU resigned?? Well......lemme know if you find a lawyer to take that case. |
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