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2018-02-03 8:16 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
Come on, the dossier may have been part of the original reason to appoint Mueller but it was not all of the story. Trump went and fired Comey, that had nothing to do with the dossier (that we know). We don't know what Mueller knows per the collusion investigation, so I don't buy the argument there is "no evidence". Let's just let him do his job and let the chips fall where they may.


2018-02-03 2:07 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Originally posted by Oysterboy So I spent the morning carefully reading the memo and listening to both conservative and liberal commentators on this. To my mind the principal issue here is was the Steele "dossier" used as the sole, or major, evidence against Page and was the nature of this document disclosed to the FISC. While we do not have all the evidence, and this memo does not even attempt to provide a complete picture, I think it entirely likely that additional evidence was required by the FISC and that the nature of the "dossier" was pretty evident from reading it (yes I have read it). I do agree Tony, why DNC and HRC campaign had Perkins Coie hire Fusion GPS is a head scratcher. But what is clear is the line connecting FISC decision and the Trump campaign is pretty thin. If the idea behind the drafting and release of this memo was to give the admin some cover to dump officials at the top of the DoJ and FBI, I think they threw up an airball.

Shock of shock, the memo was 99% allegations, 1% persperation. The memo was written by a guy who worked for Trumps transition with help from the White House, so it was bound to be highly biased from the start. And the memo itself says that the investigation into Trumps's campaign working with Russia started months before this warrant in question anyway. So the investigation would've been going with or without the Steele dossier. The memo never says how much the dossier was used to support the warrant application. It says it was "essential" but who knows what that means? It's meant to sound nefarious, but in real life was that 1 piece out of 3 or or piece out of 100?. They conveniently don't mention that. It implies that because the dossier was funded by "political actors" that it's unreliable. But it never question the material in the dossier itself. Could be that the material on Page in the dossier is unquestionably of high quality. And we're supposed to believe that a constant parade of people involved with it are all baised against Trump, even people he himself appointed to their roles. And the only evidence given of this bias is that they used relied an unknown amount on a source paid for by a "political actor" without disclosing that fact (which apparently they did disclose, but for some reason, the memo omits that fact". Oh and an agent who made snarky posts about Trump (and also Bernie, and Eric Holder and Chelsea Clinton, and wrote the statement saying that Hilary Clinton was under investigation right before the election) worked on something somewhere.

As something that "proves" wrong-doing, it's a dud. A close read actually makes a stronger case that surveillance was warranted. But I'm not sure I think it was an air ball. The whole point of the memo was not to bring to light abuses and adress them (if that was the case, the same people who approved the memo wouldn't have just voted against adding protections to the FISA process). It was to give Trump a pretense, no matter how flimsy,  to get rid of the people investigating him, because he is terrified of the investigation.. And on that count, the memo was a success.

2018-02-03 5:55 PM
in reply to: drewb8

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)

Originally posted by drewb8

Originally posted by Oysterboy So I spent the morning carefully reading the memo and listening to both conservative and liberal commentators on this. To my mind the principal issue here is was the Steele "dossier" used as the sole, or major, evidence against Page and was the nature of this document disclosed to the FISC. While we do not have all the evidence, and this memo does not even attempt to provide a complete picture, I think it entirely likely that additional evidence was required by the FISC and that the nature of the "dossier" was pretty evident from reading it (yes I have read it). I do agree Tony, why DNC and HRC campaign had Perkins Coie hire Fusion GPS is a head scratcher. But what is clear is the line connecting FISC decision and the Trump campaign is pretty thin. If the idea behind the drafting and release of this memo was to give the admin some cover to dump officials at the top of the DoJ and FBI, I think they threw up an airball.

Shock of shock, the memo was 99% allegations, 1% persperation. The memo was written by a guy who worked for Trumps transition with help from the White House, so it was bound to be highly biased from the start. And the memo itself says that the investigation into Trumps's campaign working with Russia started months before this warrant in question anyway. So the investigation would've been going with or without the Steele dossier. The memo never says how much the dossier was used to support the warrant application. It says it was "essential" but who knows what that means? It's meant to sound nefarious, but in real life was that 1 piece out of 3 or or piece out of 100?. They conveniently don't mention that. It implies that because the dossier was funded by "political actors" that it's unreliable. But it never question the material in the dossier itself. Could be that the material on Page in the dossier is unquestionably of high quality. And we're supposed to believe that a constant parade of people involved with it are all baised against Trump, even people he himself appointed to their roles. And the only evidence given of this bias is that they used relied an unknown amount on a source paid for by a "political actor" without disclosing that fact (which apparently they did disclose, but for some reason, the memo omits that fact". Oh and an agent who made snarky posts about Trump (and also Bernie, and Eric Holder and Chelsea Clinton, and wrote the statement saying that Hilary Clinton was under investigation right before the election) worked on something somewhere.

As something that "proves" wrong-doing, it's a dud. A close read actually makes a stronger case that surveillance was warranted. But I'm not sure I think it was an air ball. The whole point of the memo was not to bring to light abuses and adress them (if that was the case, the same people who approved the memo wouldn't have just voted against adding protections to the FISA process). It was to give Trump a pretense, no matter how flimsy,  to get rid of the people investigating him, because he is terrified of the investigation.. And on that count, the memo was a success.

You sure you read the same memo I did?  lol

You stated "The memo never says how much the dossier was used to support the warrant application. It says it was "essential" but who knows what that means?"
What the memo actually said:  "in December 2017, then FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe testified that “no surveillance warrant would have been sought” from the FISA court “without the Steele dossier information.”"

I do agree that it doesn't dissect the information from the dossier itself, but that's been royally debunked in the public for a long time.  There's even a section about Trump peeing on a bed that was almost word for word copied from a fanfiction post on 4chan.  The dossier was completely fake.

The biggest issue that is quite factual that the memo confirms is that Hillary and the DNC violated campaign finance laws and laundered money through their attorney to pay for foreign opposition research.  This is explicitly forbidden and illegal.  There's no arguing it.
The lawfirm (not mentioned in the memo) even fought in court providing bank records in an attempt to conceal the laundering. 
This alone is enough to put people in HRC/DNC in jail (not necessarily HRC herself).

There's a lot of other stuff that's flying around outside this memo that is corroborated by the memo such as Kerry (SOS) telling the palestinians not to buckle to Trump because he would be impeached by the end of the year.  The Obama administration changed the regulations in regards to unmasking people from FISA wire taps and spread it throughout the government with what appears to be the explicit purpose of having information leaked. There were recordings of Trump between world leaders after he took office that were "leaked" to the press after he took office. 
Shortly after the election win NSA Director Admiral Rogers paid Trump a visit and allegedly informed him that he was being spied on.  Trump immediately left Trump tower after that meeting to continue his transition.  After this meeting Obama recommended that he be fired. 

I was convinced before that the Obama administration was a corrupt criminal enterprise, but seeing all of these pieces come together just cements the idea.  I know he looked great and talked great and wanted to save the environment, but that doesn't excuse treasonous activity to overthrow the will of the people.  Make no mistake, he didn't attack Trump, he attacked the American voters and their choice of President.

2018-02-03 7:17 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
2018-02-04 12:24 AM
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Subject: RE: The memo(s)

Originally posted by tuwood

You sure you read the same memo I did?  lol

You stated "The memo never says how much the dossier was used to support the warrant application. It says it was "essential" but who knows what that means?"
What the memo actually said:  "in December 2017, then FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe testified that “no surveillance warrant would have been sought” from the FISA court “without the Steele dossier information.”"

I do agree that it doesn't dissect the information from the dossier itself, but that's been royally debunked in the public for a long time.  There's even a section about Trump peeing on a bed that was almost word for word copied from a fanfiction post on 4chan.  The dossier was completely fake.

The biggest issue that is quite factual that the memo confirms is that Hillary and the DNC violated campaign finance laws and laundered money through their attorney to pay for foreign opposition research.  This is explicitly forbidden and illegal.  There's no arguing it.
The lawfirm (not mentioned in the memo) even fought in court providing bank records in an attempt to conceal the laundering. 
This alone is enough to put people in HRC/DNC in jail (not necessarily HRC herself).

There's a lot of other stuff that's flying around outside this memo that is corroborated by the memo such as Kerry (SOS) telling the palestinians not to buckle to Trump because he would be impeached by the end of the year.  The Obama administration changed the regulations in regards to unmasking people from FISA wire taps and spread it throughout the government with what appears to be the explicit purpose of having information leaked. There were recordings of Trump between world leaders after he took office that were "leaked" to the press after he took office. 
Shortly after the election win NSA Director Admiral Rogers paid Trump a visit and allegedly informed him that he was being spied on.  Trump immediately left Trump tower after that meeting to continue his transition.  After this meeting Obama recommended that he be fired. 

I was convinced before that the Obama administration was a corrupt criminal enterprise, but seeing all of these pieces come together just cements the idea.  I know he looked great and talked great and wanted to save the environment, but that doesn't excuse treasonous activity to overthrow the will of the people.  Make no mistake, he didn't attack Trump, he attacked the American voters and their choice of President.

"in December 2017, then FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe testified that “no surveillance warrant would have been sought” from the FISA court “without the Steele dossier information.” or so says a guy who got caught sneaking into the White House to pick up leaked classified documents. If you believe the Dems, he never said that, and what he really said is that the application wouldn't have been complete without the information collected by Steele on Page. I know this is going to be hard to believe, but the authors of the memo won't release the transcript, because I guess they don't trust the American people to be smart enough to judge it for themselves, so we don't know who's interpretation is correct.

All the memo says is that controversial information was used to justify surveillance. But funnily enough, no where in the memo does it say that the information that was used from the dossier is wrong. Seems like that would've been a really important smoking gun if it was the case. I know you keep saying that the entire dossier is debunked, but that just isn't true. Parts have been shown false, and parts have been corroborated. The part about Trump's Moscow hookers wouldn't have been included in a warrant about Page anyway, but Page himself corroborated in testimony to the House Intelligence Committee that some of the details in the dossier are true. Most likely the parts of the dossier that would have been used as (a small) part of the evidence used to obtain the warrant.

And again according to this memo, the investigation into Russian interference in the election started months before this warrant anyway, not to mention that getting a warrant to surveille a guy who had already left the Trump campaign, just weeks before the election (so there wouldn't have been any time to influence the election toward Hillary anyway) just doesn't make any sense. Nothing about this "conspiracy" makes sense, because there's no there there. I mean at the time the original warrant that used the Steele information was submitted Rosenstein was the US Attorney for Maryland(!) and had nothing to do with the investigation, yet somehow he's supposed to be corrupt and biased. The whole thing is just meant as a giant smear job. Throw a s**t ton of mud, and hope just enough of it of sticks to the Russia investigation.



Edited by drewb8 2018-02-04 12:27 AM
2018-02-04 1:01 AM
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Subject: RE: The memo(s)

Whoops, DP

Knock knock. 

Who's there.

I eat mop



Edited by drewb8 2018-02-04 1:09 AM


2018-02-04 6:31 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
Originally posted by tuwood

 



Yep, Trump TV spinning this in a way to discredit Rosenstein and lube the way for Trump to replace him. Slow moving coup.
2018-02-04 3:00 PM
in reply to: drewb8

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)

Originally posted by drewb8

Originally posted by tuwood

You sure you read the same memo I did?  lol

You stated "The memo never says how much the dossier was used to support the warrant application. It says it was "essential" but who knows what that means?"
What the memo actually said:  "in December 2017, then FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe testified that “no surveillance warrant would have been sought” from the FISA court “without the Steele dossier information.”"

I do agree that it doesn't dissect the information from the dossier itself, but that's been royally debunked in the public for a long time.  There's even a section about Trump peeing on a bed that was almost word for word copied from a fanfiction post on 4chan.  The dossier was completely fake.

The biggest issue that is quite factual that the memo confirms is that Hillary and the DNC violated campaign finance laws and laundered money through their attorney to pay for foreign opposition research.  This is explicitly forbidden and illegal.  There's no arguing it.
The lawfirm (not mentioned in the memo) even fought in court providing bank records in an attempt to conceal the laundering. 
This alone is enough to put people in HRC/DNC in jail (not necessarily HRC herself).

There's a lot of other stuff that's flying around outside this memo that is corroborated by the memo such as Kerry (SOS) telling the palestinians not to buckle to Trump because he would be impeached by the end of the year.  The Obama administration changed the regulations in regards to unmasking people from FISA wire taps and spread it throughout the government with what appears to be the explicit purpose of having information leaked. There were recordings of Trump between world leaders after he took office that were "leaked" to the press after he took office. 
Shortly after the election win NSA Director Admiral Rogers paid Trump a visit and allegedly informed him that he was being spied on.  Trump immediately left Trump tower after that meeting to continue his transition.  After this meeting Obama recommended that he be fired. 

I was convinced before that the Obama administration was a corrupt criminal enterprise, but seeing all of these pieces come together just cements the idea.  I know he looked great and talked great and wanted to save the environment, but that doesn't excuse treasonous activity to overthrow the will of the people.  Make no mistake, he didn't attack Trump, he attacked the American voters and their choice of President.

"in December 2017, then FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe testified that “no surveillance warrant would have been sought” from the FISA court “without the Steele dossier information.” or so says a guy who got caught sneaking into the White House to pick up leaked classified documents. If you believe the Dems, he never said that, and what he really said is that the application wouldn't have been complete without the information collected by Steele on Page. I know this is going to be hard to believe, but the authors of the memo won't release the transcript, because I guess they don't trust the American people to be smart enough to judge it for themselves, so we don't know who's interpretation is correct.

All the memo says is that controversial information was used to justify surveillance. But funnily enough, no where in the memo does it say that the information that was used from the dossier is wrong. Seems like that would've been a really important smoking gun if it was the case. I know you keep saying that the entire dossier is debunked, but that just isn't true. Parts have been shown false, and parts have been corroborated. The part about Trump's Moscow hookers wouldn't have been included in a warrant about Page anyway, but Page himself corroborated in testimony to the House Intelligence Committee that some of the details in the dossier are true. Most likely the parts of the dossier that would have been used as (a small) part of the evidence used to obtain the warrant.

And again according to this memo, the investigation into Russian interference in the election started months before this warrant anyway, not to mention that getting a warrant to surveille a guy who had already left the Trump campaign, just weeks before the election (so there wouldn't have been any time to influence the election toward Hillary anyway) just doesn't make any sense. Nothing about this "conspiracy" makes sense, because there's no there there. I mean at the time the original warrant that used the Steele information was submitted Rosenstein was the US Attorney for Maryland(!) and had nothing to do with the investigation, yet somehow he's supposed to be corrupt and biased. The whole thing is just meant as a giant smear job. Throw a s**t ton of mud, and hope just enough of it of sticks to the Russia investigation.

Gowdy confirmed yet again that he McCabe did say that and is also starting the process of declassifying his entire testimony so we can see exactly what he said.  I'll let you guess whose fighting against its release.

As for there being enough intelligence outside of the dossier, I would question the fact that the FBI paid $165k to a foreign spy to come up with more evidence and then leak it to yahoo to "cross validate" it to the public in order to manipulate a judge.

From a timing standpoint there's another little known fact about the FISA warrants.  They allow retroactive spying via the NSA PRISM program.  They can go back in time and retrieve texts and calls that occurred an indefinite amount of time before the warrant.
I don't know if they did or not, but the date of the warrant itself doesn't necessarily mean that's when the spying started.

2018-02-04 3:02 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)

Originally posted by Oysterboy
Originally posted by tuwood

 

Yep, Trump TV spinning this in a way to discredit Rosenstein and lube the way for Trump to replace him. Slow moving coup.

I think it's interesting that you see it as a coup against the FBI rather than a coup against the President of the United States.  I know you have your political leanings, but there's been zero factual evidence against Trump and there's a mountain of evidence against the DNC/HRC/Obama admin colluding against Trump.

Then you have the media willfully trying to cover it up.

2018-02-05 2:40 AM
in reply to: #5236922

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“I actually don’t think it has any impact on the Russia probe,” Rep. Trey Gowdy of South Carolina said on CBS’ Face the Nation. Gowdy, who is one of the four authors of the memo that was released Friday. “There is a Russia investigation without a dossier,” he said, noting that the dossier has “nothing to do” with the Trump Tower meeting between Donald Trump Jr. and a Russian lawyer.
2018-02-05 7:37 AM
in reply to: drewb8

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
Facts:

The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton.

The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails.

The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians.

President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.


2018-02-05 8:05 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
Originally posted by Oysterboy

Facts:


President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.


Kind of a hijack, but this got me thinking. If Hillary had won; would she have fired Comey for his antics leading up to the election? He made it to the top of the DNC shiite list leading up to the election. And I don't think we can argue that his actions did have an impact on the election. If she had won and fired Comey, would the left be coming to his defense as they are now?
2018-02-05 8:05 AM
in reply to: drewb8

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
Originally posted by drewb8

“I actually don’t think it has any impact on the Russia probe,” Rep. Trey Gowdy of South Carolina said on CBS’ Face the Nation. Gowdy, who is one of the four authors of the memo that was released Friday. “There is a Russia investigation without a dossier,” he said, noting that the dossier has “nothing to do” with the Trump Tower meeting between Donald Trump Jr. and a Russian lawyer.


He did not say the dossier has nothing to do with the Russia investigation. He said the memo will not have an impact on the probe. I have long said that if Mueller does a complete investigation there is no way he doesn't investigate the Russian sources behind the dossier and all the players associated with the dossier including Comey, GPS, Steele, Orh, DOJ, Orh's wife, Carter Page, DNC etc. Mueller's charter is to investigate Russian interference with the election and that has to include the dossier. So I expect when Mueller does release his finding there are going to be a lot of disappointment.....which is why I think Gowdy wants the investigation to continue and why Trump will not kill the Mueller investigation.

I have heard the Nunnes memo described as evidence of treason and I've heard it described at a nothing burger. I think it is neither. I think it is exactly what it claims to be, evidence the FBI abused the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to spy on an American citizen. And not just any citizen but a member a campaign during a presidential election. The FBI had an obligation to tell the court that the dossier had not been vetted and that it was opposition research paid for by the DNC. The FBI knew the dossier was opposition research but maybe they also believed some of things in the dossier were legitimate....but they also knew the judge(s) would not accept the dossier as evidence if they knew the origin of the dossier. Someone needs to be fired and/or go jail and something needs to be put in place to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Imagine if 3 years from now Trump hires someone to do opposition research on his opponent and then gives that opposition research to the FBI and tells them to use that to get a FISA warrant to spy on someone inside the opposition's campaign. If you are being surveilled by the FBI that means all your calls are at least screened....and if the conversation is about campaign strategy not within the scope of the FISA warrant it cannot be unheard. But now you have Watergate all over again.....



2018-02-05 8:16 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
Originally posted by Oysterboy

Facts:

The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton.

The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails.

The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians.

President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.


Your last statement is not a fact at all. It is 100% opinion/conjecture. You have no idea what was in Trump's head when he fired Comey!

Nothing wrong with meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary! Also nothing wrong with Hillary/DNC hiring Fusion GPS to get Russian dirt on Trump.

I support any effort to find the missing emails! If those emails are ever found I have no doubt Clinton will go to jail. The idea that she only deleted personal emails is ridiculous.

The Trump WH lied? I am shocked!! Politicians are not supposed to lie......


2018-02-05 8:52 AM
in reply to: drewb8

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)

Originally posted by drewb8 “I actually don’t think it has any impact on the Russia probe,” Rep. Trey Gowdy of South Carolina said on CBS’ Face the Nation. Gowdy, who is one of the four authors of the memo that was released Friday. “There is a Russia investigation without a dossier,” he said, noting that the dossier has “nothing to do” with the Trump Tower meeting between Donald Trump Jr. and a Russian lawyer.

I agree the memo itself doesn't have much to do with the Russian probe and the dossier itself is arguable.  However, what drove the Trump tower meeting with Don Jr and the Russian lawyer?  Fusion GPS (paid by the DNC/HRC/FBI) paid a foreign spy to create a fake dossier implicating Trump in collusion, they hired the Russian lawyer under false pretense to set up the meeting with Don Jr. to make it appear as though he was colluding, they took the story to Yahoo news to corroborate the collusion and then took it all the the FISA court to wire tap the campaign.  Then after Trump won they invoked the "insurance plan" with the media to claim Russian interference to overthrow the rightful President of the United States.  Oh, and of course all the funding was ILLEGAL!!!
But, all you guys want to talk about is how Trump colluded.  Seriously, don't you have even a 1000% of a percent of doubt that maybe just maybe the Democrats did something wrong here?  lol

Amazingly the liberal press refused to cover anything about the most obvious crime:
US Politics WATCH: Gowdy Exposes What Everyone Else Missed: Exposes $10 Million Hillary Clinton LAUNDERING Scheme

“I’m not an election law expert, but the good news is you don’t have to be to understated the absurdity of believing that you can launder all of your campaign money by just hiring a law firm,” Gowdy told host Chris Wallace.

Imagine if you and I were running for Congress, and we just hired a law firm and said ‘Hey, you go do all the oppo, you go buy all the television, you go buy all the bumper stickers, you go hire all the experts, and we’re going to launder all of this through a law firm,’” he continued.

“I am also interested in sharing some memory tricks with folks at the DNC because no one can remember who paid 10 million dollars to a law firm to do oppo research,” Gowdy noted. “I find that stunning.”

“$10 million and no one can remember who authorized it, who approved it? So you’ve got two issues, a memory issue and then the lack of transparency by laundering money through a law firm,” Gowdy concluded.

 

2018-02-05 9:04 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Originally posted by Oysterboy Facts: The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails. The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians. President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.

The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton.
The meeting was set up by Fusion GPS to entrap Don Jr. with a lawyer who was Russian.  They said they had oppo on Hillary and then showed up and talked about Russian adoptions.  I love how you state as fact that they met "with the Russians"  /eyeroll

The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails.
So an organization reached out to a media organization for information they claimed to have?  Scandal of the century right there.

The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians.
The White House lied?  do tell.  Is this like your "met with Russia"?   I went to a Trump rally so I guess if I lie then it's the White House lying too in your book?  /eyeroll

President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.
There were a multitude of reasons he needed to be fired and ultimately he followed Rosenstein's recommendation to fire him.
The only justification to claim he was fired "because of the Russia investigation" was the following statement Trump made in an interview:
“[Rosenstein] made a recommendation, but regardless of recommendation I was going to fire Comey, knowing there was no good time to do it,” Trump said. “And, in fact, when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said, ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story. It’s an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won.’”
I know your opinion is that he was fired exclusively because of the Russia investigation, but that is not factual in any way.

As somebody who works in the scientific industry I would think your threshold for "facts" would be a little higher.  :-P



2018-02-05 9:06 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by drewb8 “I actually don’t think it has any impact on the Russia probe,” Rep. Trey Gowdy of South Carolina said on CBS’ Face the Nation. Gowdy, who is one of the four authors of the memo that was released Friday. “There is a Russia investigation without a dossier,” he said, noting that the dossier has “nothing to do” with the Trump Tower meeting between Donald Trump Jr. and a Russian lawyer.
He did not say the dossier has nothing to do with the Russia investigation. He said the memo will not have an impact on the probe. I have long said that if Mueller does a complete investigation there is no way he doesn't investigate the Russian sources behind the dossier and all the players associated with the dossier including Comey, GPS, Steele, Orh, DOJ, Orh's wife, Carter Page, DNC etc. Mueller's charter is to investigate Russian interference with the election and that has to include the dossier. So I expect when Mueller does release his finding there are going to be a lot of disappointment.....which is why I think Gowdy wants the investigation to continue and why Trump will not kill the Mueller investigation. I have heard the Nunnes memo described as evidence of treason and I've heard it described at a nothing burger. I think it is neither. I think it is exactly what it claims to be, evidence the FBI abused the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to spy on an American citizen. And not just any citizen but a member a campaign during a presidential election. The FBI had an obligation to tell the court that the dossier had not been vetted and that it was opposition research paid for by the DNC. The FBI knew the dossier was opposition research but maybe they also believed some of things in the dossier were legitimate....but they also knew the judge(s) would not accept the dossier as evidence if they knew the origin of the dossier. Someone needs to be fired and/or go jail and something needs to be put in place to make sure this doesn't happen again. Imagine if 3 years from now Trump hires someone to do opposition research on his opponent and then gives that opposition research to the FBI and tells them to use that to get a FISA warrant to spy on someone inside the opposition's campaign. If you are being surveilled by the FBI that means all your calls are at least screened....and if the conversation is about campaign strategy not within the scope of the FISA warrant it cannot be unheard. But now you have Watergate all over again.....

As long as he launders the money through an attorney to hire the opposition research he'll be OK.

2018-02-05 9:10 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by Oysterboy Facts: The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails. The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians. President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.
Your last statement is not a fact at all. It is 100% opinion/conjecture. You have no idea what was in Trump's head when he fired Comey! Nothing wrong with meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary! Also nothing wrong with Hillary/DNC hiring Fusion GPS to get Russian dirt on Trump. I support any effort to find the missing emails! If those emails are ever found I have no doubt Clinton will go to jail. The idea that she only deleted personal emails is ridiculous. The Trump WH lied? I am shocked!! Politicians are not supposed to lie......

Nothing wrong with meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary! Also nothing wrong with Hillary/DNC hiring Fusion GPS to get Russian dirt on Trump.

There's actually quite a bit wrong with it.  The DNC and HRC campaigns have to account for all their campaign money spent and they hid the money they spent by hiring an attorney and paying them a LOT of money.  This law office then hired Fusion GPS, who then hired a foreign spy.
Campaign laws in the US do not allow for hiding expenditures through third parties and they do not allow for a campaign to hire foreign intelligence.  If HRC or the DNC just hired Fusion GPS for oppo, then yes it would be OK, but if that happened then they couldn't have illegally hired foreign spy's and the Russians (I guess I can lump them all together now too) to get their oppo.

2018-02-05 9:23 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by Oysterboy Facts: The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails. The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians. President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.
Your last statement is not a fact at all. It is 100% opinion/conjecture. You have no idea what was in Trump's head when he fired Comey! Nothing wrong with meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary! Also nothing wrong with Hillary/DNC hiring Fusion GPS to get Russian dirt on Trump. I support any effort to find the missing emails! If those emails are ever found I have no doubt Clinton will go to jail. The idea that she only deleted personal emails is ridiculous. The Trump WH lied? I am shocked!! Politicians are not supposed to lie......

Nothing wrong with meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary! Also nothing wrong with Hillary/DNC hiring Fusion GPS to get Russian dirt on Trump.

There's actually quite a bit wrong with it.  The DNC and HRC campaigns have to account for all their campaign money spent and they hid the money they spent by hiring an attorney and paying them a LOT of money.  This law office then hired Fusion GPS, who then hired a foreign spy.
Campaign laws in the US do not allow for hiding expenditures through third parties and they do not allow for a campaign to hire foreign intelligence.  If HRC or the DNC just hired Fusion GPS for oppo, then yes it would be OK, but if that happened then they couldn't have illegally hired foreign spy's and the Russians (I guess I can lump them all together now too) to get their oppo.




My bad. I was trying to pull a Comey and let HRC off the hook. ;-)

2018-02-05 9:34 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by Oysterboy Facts: The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails. The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians. President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.
Your last statement is not a fact at all. It is 100% opinion/conjecture. You have no idea what was in Trump's head when he fired Comey! Nothing wrong with meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary! Also nothing wrong with Hillary/DNC hiring Fusion GPS to get Russian dirt on Trump. I support any effort to find the missing emails! If those emails are ever found I have no doubt Clinton will go to jail. The idea that she only deleted personal emails is ridiculous. The Trump WH lied? I am shocked!! Politicians are not supposed to lie......

Nothing wrong with meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary! Also nothing wrong with Hillary/DNC hiring Fusion GPS to get Russian dirt on Trump.

There's actually quite a bit wrong with it.  The DNC and HRC campaigns have to account for all their campaign money spent and they hid the money they spent by hiring an attorney and paying them a LOT of money.  This law office then hired Fusion GPS, who then hired a foreign spy.
Campaign laws in the US do not allow for hiding expenditures through third parties and they do not allow for a campaign to hire foreign intelligence.  If HRC or the DNC just hired Fusion GPS for oppo, then yes it would be OK, but if that happened then they couldn't have illegally hired foreign spy's and the Russians (I guess I can lump them all together now too) to get their oppo.

My bad. I was trying to pull a Comey and let HRC off the hook. ;-)

hah

I do sit back and wonder what will actually be done with all this.  Lets just say for example Trump and Sessions treat everyone equally under the law, like they're really supposed to.  Quite likely Comey, Obama, Hillary, the DNC heads, and many more would all be arrested and charged.  You think the Russia narrative is going nuts with the media, holy cow I can't even imagine.  haha

I do want people to be held fully accountable to the fullest extent of the law no matter who it is.   I want our laws to mean something and powerful people to stop breaking the law.  The only way this happens is if powerful people go to prison, so new powerful people think twice about doing it again in the future.

2018-02-05 10:07 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by Oysterboy Facts: The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails. The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians. President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.
Your last statement is not a fact at all. It is 100% opinion/conjecture. You have no idea what was in Trump's head when he fired Comey! Nothing wrong with meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary! Also nothing wrong with Hillary/DNC hiring Fusion GPS to get Russian dirt on Trump. I support any effort to find the missing emails! If those emails are ever found I have no doubt Clinton will go to jail. The idea that she only deleted personal emails is ridiculous. The Trump WH lied? I am shocked!! Politicians are not supposed to lie......

Nothing wrong with meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary! Also nothing wrong with Hillary/DNC hiring Fusion GPS to get Russian dirt on Trump.

There's actually quite a bit wrong with it.  The DNC and HRC campaigns have to account for all their campaign money spent and they hid the money they spent by hiring an attorney and paying them a LOT of money.  This law office then hired Fusion GPS, who then hired a foreign spy.
Campaign laws in the US do not allow for hiding expenditures through third parties and they do not allow for a campaign to hire foreign intelligence.  If HRC or the DNC just hired Fusion GPS for oppo, then yes it would be OK, but if that happened then they couldn't have illegally hired foreign spy's and the Russians (I guess I can lump them all together now too) to get their oppo.

My bad. I was trying to pull a Comey and let HRC off the hook. ;-)

hah

I do sit back and wonder what will actually be done with all this.  Lets just say for example Trump and Sessions treat everyone equally under the law, like they're really supposed to.  Quite likely Comey, Obama, Hillary, the DNC heads, and many more would all be arrested and charged.  You think the Russia narrative is going nuts with the media, holy cow I can't even imagine.  haha

I do want people to be held fully accountable to the fullest extent of the law no matter who it is.   I want our laws to mean something and powerful people to stop breaking the law.  The only way this happens is if powerful people go to prison, so new powerful people think twice about doing it again in the future.




It will be difficult. FBI/DOJ/State Dept can all hide behind "national security" as an excuse to obstruct justice. Look at what was said by democrats and Schiff about the Nunnes memo! It would reveal methods and source and endanger lives.....turns out all that was BS and Schiff knew it because they had already read the memo. But most of the media ignored this. I did see Chris Wallace ask the question.....but the question was not answered.

Some needs to ask Schiffty specifically:

What part of the memo reveals methods and source?
Was the 'method' you didn't want revealed the way the FBI hid information from the FISA court?
Was the source you didn't want revealed Steele because he was paid by the DNC and by the FBI?
Or was the method/source used by the FBI to cite corroboration of the dossier a NYT's article that traces back to the dossier?
Why were you so adamantly opposed to letting this memo be seen by the American people?


The last question is one that really bothers me! It's the arrogance of power that seems to say "You peon Americans don't need to know this stuff. You just shut up and color and Big Brother will sort all this out. We need to shield the FBI or you Americans will lose faith in them! Now run along and play, nothing to see here."

If we ever get to the point where we refuse to see corruption in our government, democracy will have failed. I am open to possibility that Trump colluded with the Russians even though I've not seen or heard of any evidence. If Mueller produces audio tapes of Trump making deals with the Russians during the election I will provide the rope for his hanging for treason. But I am also open to the possibility that Obama/HRC and deep state used the State Department, Justice Department, Intelligence community and the WH to try to get HRC elected. Trump wasn't supposed to win....and now the onion of corruption is starting to be peeled.






2018-02-05 10:18 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Oysterboy Facts: The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails. The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians. President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.

The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton.
The meeting was set up by Fusion GPS to entrap Don Jr. with a lawyer who was Russian.  They said they had oppo on Hillary and then showed up and talked about Russian adoptions.  I love how you state as fact that they met "with the Russians"  /eyeroll

The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails.
So an organization reached out to a media organization for information they claimed to have?  Scandal of the century right there.

The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians.
The White House lied?  do tell.  Is this like your "met with Russia"?   I went to a Trump rally so I guess if I lie then it's the White House lying too in your book?  /eyeroll

President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.
There were a multitude of reasons he needed to be fired and ultimately he followed Rosenstein's recommendation to fire him.
The only justification to claim he was fired "because of the Russia investigation" was the following statement Trump made in an interview:
“[Rosenstein] made a recommendation, but regardless of recommendation I was going to fire Comey, knowing there was no good time to do it,” Trump said. “And, in fact, when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said, ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story. It’s an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won.’”
I know your opinion is that he was fired exclusively because of the Russia investigation, but that is not factual in any way.

As somebody who works in the scientific industry I would think your threshold for "facts" would be a little higher.  :-P




#1) All information I have is that the meeting with the Russians was initiated by Rob Goldstone. Where did Fusion GPS come from in this context?

#2) Cambridge Analytica, was working for the Trump campaign. Why would they contact Wikileaks?

#3) DJT played a key role in crafting a press release saying that the point of that meeting was Russian adoptions. It was not, by Don Jr's own email string it was taken by him and others as a mechanism to get "dirt" on the HRC campaign.

#4) DJT admitted to Lester Holt, that he fired Comey over the Russia investigation, it's on TV.

I have never said that he is guilty of collusion, I honestly do not know this is true and have consistently said as much. However, to say there is no evidence is just not factual. Again, and I repeat this for the 100th time, let's just let Mueller do his job.

2018-02-05 10:35 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)

Originally posted by Oysterboy
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Oysterboy Facts: The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails. The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians. President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.

The Trump campaign were happy to meet/communicate with Russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton.
The meeting was set up by Fusion GPS to entrap Don Jr. with a lawyer who was Russian.  They said they had oppo on Hillary and then showed up and talked about Russian adoptions.  I love how you state as fact that they met "with the Russians"  /eyeroll

The head of Cambridge Analytica reached out to WikiLeaks in an effort to develop a searchable archive of Clinton’s missing 33,000 emails.
So an organization reached out to a media organization for information they claimed to have?  Scandal of the century right there.

The Trump White House initially lied when confronted with questions about campaign contacts with Russians.
The White House lied?  do tell.  Is this like your "met with Russia"?   I went to a Trump rally so I guess if I lie then it's the White House lying too in your book?  /eyeroll

President Trump fired FBI Director James B. Comey because of the Russia investigation.
There were a multitude of reasons he needed to be fired and ultimately he followed Rosenstein's recommendation to fire him.
The only justification to claim he was fired "because of the Russia investigation" was the following statement Trump made in an interview:
“[Rosenstein] made a recommendation, but regardless of recommendation I was going to fire Comey, knowing there was no good time to do it,” Trump said. “And, in fact, when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said, ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story. It’s an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won.’”
I know your opinion is that he was fired exclusively because of the Russia investigation, but that is not factual in any way.

As somebody who works in the scientific industry I would think your threshold for "facts" would be a little higher.  :-P

 #1) All information I have is that the meeting with the Russians was initiated by Rob Goldstone. Where did Fusion GPS come from in this context?

#2) Cambridge Analytica, was working for the Trump campaign. Why would they contact Wikileaks?

#3) DJT played a key role in crafting a press release saying that the point of that meeting was Russian adoptions. It was not, by Don Jr's own email string it was taken by him and others as a mechanism to get "dirt" on the HRC campaign.

#4) DJT admitted to Lester Holt, that he fired Comey over the Russia investigation, it's on TV.

I have never said that he is guilty of collusion, I honestly do not know this is true and have consistently said as much. However, to say there is no evidence is just not factual. Again, and I repeat this for the 100th time, let's just let Mueller do his job.


1, From everything non-Russia Russia Russia I've read is that she solicited the campaign team by offering dirt on HRC.  They agreed to meet and then when she got there she only wanted to talk about Russian adoption legislation and the meeting lasted all of a few minutes.  To make it sound as though the Trump team sought her out is a bit of a stretch. 
She met with the Fusion GPS founder immediately before and after the DJT meeting and this was after Fusion was on the payroll for HRC and the DNC.  I can't exactly say that she's "on the payroll" by Fusion GPS, but it's hard to justify any other reason that she would meet with them directly before and after the meeting for any other reason.  On the surface, and with knowledge of all the other nefarious propaganda things Fusion GPS was doing, this appears to be a blatant set up of a naive political campaign to manufacture a "meeting with the Russians" that can be used later.  And of course, this meeting is now exhibit A for all those that think Trump colluded with the Russians.
Fusion GPS official met with Russian operative before and after Trump Jr. sit-down

2. Yet again, Wikileaks is a news organization.  It would be like asking, why did somebody affiliated with the campaign reach out to FoxNews or Brietbart.  I don't see the issue.

3. I can't remember all the things that were stated, but I think everybody is on record stating that she promised oppo and then talked Magnitsky act when she actually got to the meeting.

4. As I said before, there were a multitude of reasons for Comey being fired.  Even if he was exclusively fired for the Russia investigation it was 100% within the right of the President to do so. 
Comey isn't the guy on the streets investigating anything.  He's the political hack in charge of an investigation who was caught leaking classified information to the public, interfered with the election (HRC disclosures), and now we find out lying through omission to the FISA courts.  He was terrible.

2018-02-05 11:03 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: The memo(s)
This is the backstory of the misleading statement Trump helped to craft:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-dictated-sons-misleadi...

All accounts (so far) are that the Russians brought no dirt on HRC to that meeting, they were there to talk bout the Magnitsky Act, a set of sanctions that Putin would like to go away. It's just the fact they the took the meeting in the first place is problematic, Bannon called it treasonous.

Wikileaks is a media organization? Bet you didn't feel that way when they published the Bradley Manning data dump, I certainly thought that was treasonous and that little good came of that "public service".

Again, I think we all need to settle down and let Mueller do his job. No, it's not going to be over in two weeks, I think we are looking at this summer some time, everything I read does make it sound like they want to wrap up before the midterms.

And if you want to start up a full blown inquisition of HRC (pitchforks and torches and all) then go for it, please rid the body politic of her, I think we would all be better off. And clean out the DRC while you are at it as they put their thumb on the scale to bump Bernie Sanders. Let Trump preside in a throne over the whole thing, he'd really love that and they can play the Bruce Springsteen song "Glory Days" as the soundtrack and sell MAGA hats. All of this will play awesomely for the midterms.
2018-02-05 11:28 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Originally posted by Oysterboy This is the backstory of the misleading statement Trump helped to craft: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-dictated-sons-misleadi... All accounts (so far) are that the Russians brought no dirt on HRC to that meeting, they were there to talk bout the Magnitsky Act, a set of sanctions that Putin would like to go away. It's just the fact they the took the meeting in the first place is problematic, Bannon called it treasonous. Wikileaks is a media organization? Bet you didn't feel that way when they published the Bradley Manning data dump, I certainly thought that was treasonous and that little good came of that "public service". Again, I think we all need to settle down and let Mueller do his job. No, it's not going to be over in two weeks, I think we are looking at this summer some time, everything I read does make it sound like they want to wrap up before the midterms. And if you want to start up a full blown inquisition of HRC (pitchforks and torches and all) then go for it, please rid the body politic of her, I think we would all be better off. And clean out the DRC while you are at it as they put their thumb on the scale to bump Bernie Sanders. Let Trump preside in a throne over the whole thing, he'd really love that and they can play the Bruce Springsteen song "Glory Days" as the soundtrack and sell MAGA hats. All of this will play awesomely for the midterms.


I do agree that they should not have taken the meeting in the first place, but it still doesn't make it illegal.  There were no laws broken, so everything beyond that point is just politics and conjecture to fit into the "Russia narrative".

I'm a huge supporter of Wikileaks, both in spirit and financially.  They are the picture of what the media used to be where they report on government abuses and expose corruption.
Remember, corruption and civil rights is the area that I'm probably further to the left than Obama on.  I despise the government doing what it's not supposed to be doing and I herald whistle-blowers such as Manning and Snowden as American Heroes!!!

I honestly have no problem with Mueller doing his job, but in my opinion he has completed his job investigating the Collusion narrative, but now is simply on a perjury trap witch hunt.  He likely has literal recordings of Trump throughout the campaign and transition and if he could catch him in one misstatement about where he was on a certain day (or whatever) under oath then he'll indict him for perjury.  It's just stupid at this point.

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