General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Mike Ricci's LT TT Test... Rss Feed  
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2006-09-25 1:15 PM

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Subject: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
I calculated my HR to find my ave HR using the Run TT test. You're supposed to finish knowing you gave it everything you got... But after 15 minutes I was petering out but kept on going for another 15. My heart rate was high 190s at the start and got lower as I struggled to finish. Is this accurate way of calculating?

Can you get your average by doing a mile sprint or something after a 15 minute warmup run?

Now that I got my average, how do I calculate the zones. I don't have the Training Bible. Is there a formula for manual calc instead of the BT logs that calculate it for you?

Thanks


2006-09-25 1:20 PM
in reply to: #550965

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...

You went out too hard.  In theory, LT should be at a level that you can maintain for an hour (or a bit longer).  The 30min test is actually a short-cut as most people would find it exceedingly difficult to muster the motivation needed for such an effort (outside of a race of that length).

Unfortunately, I think the best you can say is that high 190s is above your LT.  Your best bet is to re-test again when you are rested.



Edited by JohnnyKay 2006-09-25 1:21 PM
2006-09-25 1:36 PM
in reply to: #550978

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
It can take practice to do the TT test correctly. In 2-3 days after recovery, try it again this time don't go out quite as hard, and slowly increase your intensity toward the end, but again, by the end of the 30 minutes it should be everything you had. This is pretty normal when doing that type of test for the first time, or when first starting interval training. It takes practice to learn the 'pace' so that you don't burn out in the first mile. Disregard the HR number you got, and chalk it up to learning experience. Keep at it, you're on the right training track.
2006-09-25 1:43 PM
in reply to: #550965

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
Good effort - just a little too much. That was your hard effort for this week, so next week give it another go - throttle back the effort in the beginning and see what you can do. If anything you want to see your HR RISE throughout the test - when I am unfit I tend to see the numbers fall just like you did - it's a common mistake and it may take a few efforts to get it right. A 10k race would suit this purpose just as well if there is one happening near you anytime soon.
2006-09-25 2:33 PM
in reply to: #551012

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
mikericci - 2006-09-25 11:43 AM

Good effort - just a little too much. That was your hard effort for this week, so next week give it another go - throttle back the effort in the beginning and see what you can do. If anything you want to see your HR RISE throughout the test - when I am unfit I tend to see the numbers fall just like you did - it's a common mistake and it may take a few efforts to get it right. A 10k race would suit this purpose just as well if there is one happening near you anytime soon.


Thanks - especially from the man himself!

So a 10K race pace should be my goal. That sounds good. I just bought the Training Bible today but haven't thumbed through it too much. I'm assuming there's a HR Calculation in there somewhere to find your zones.

G
2006-09-25 2:47 PM
in reply to: #550965

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...

how about a 5k race?  I raced this past weekend, and my ave HR was 178 (i warmed up for about 10 minutes before the gun) but I did take 2 1 minute walk breaks. At one point around mile 2 I noticed my HR at 182, so I slowed down a bit knowing I had 1 more mile to go... can I call my LT 178?

Oh, and it was a PR, slightly hilly course. By PR I mean this incarnation as an athlete. I will NEVER approximate the PR I had in college  



2006-09-25 2:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...

TriathleteNut - 2006-09-25 12:33 PM
mikericci - 2006-09-25 11:43 AM Good effort - just a little too much. That was your hard effort for this week, so next week give it another go - throttle back the effort in the beginning and see what you can do. If anything you want to see your HR RISE throughout the test - when I am unfit I tend to see the numbers fall just like you did - it's a common mistake and it may take a few efforts to get it right. A 10k race would suit this purpose just as well if there is one happening near you anytime soon.
Thanks - especially from the man himself! So a 10K race pace should be my goal. That sounds good. I just bought the Training Bible today but haven't thumbed through it too much. I'm assuming there's a HR Calculation in there somewhere to find your zones. G

You are welcome and it's actually Joe Friel's test not mine. I know he got it from somewhere else as well but I don't want to take credit for it.

There is a chart in there and there is a calculator on this site and on my site as well - on my D3 Tips page - you can download the Excel sheet to calculate the run and bike HR numbers.

A 5k would be ok, but only if it takes you longer than 30 minutes.

2006-09-25 3:23 PM
in reply to: #551107

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
mikericci - 2006-09-25 12:52 PM

TriathleteNut - 2006-09-25 12:33 PM
mikericci - 2006-09-25 11:43 AM Good effort - just a little too much. That was your hard effort for this week, so next week give it another go - throttle back the effort in the beginning and see what you can do. If anything you want to see your HR RISE throughout the test - when I am unfit I tend to see the numbers fall just like you did - it's a common mistake and it may take a few efforts to get it right. A 10k race would suit this purpose just as well if there is one happening near you anytime soon.
Thanks - especially from the man himself! So a 10K race pace should be my goal. That sounds good. I just bought the Training Bible today but haven't thumbed through it too much. I'm assuming there's a HR Calculation in there somewhere to find your zones. G

You are welcome and it's actually Joe Friel's test not mine. I know he got it from somewhere else as well but I don't want to take credit for it.

There is a chart in there and there is a calculator on this site and on my site as well - on my D3 Tips page - you can download the Excel sheet to calculate the run and bike HR numbers.

A 5k would be ok, but only if it takes you longer than 30 minutes.



Why is 30 minutes such a significant number? A 5K will take me less than 30 min, a 10K more than 50 minutes.

I can go back to some HR info on a 10K Personal Best run and maybe use that but I want to have an accurate test - one where I'm going for the Time Trial and not one where I'm just running.

Also... on two hot days I ran my HR peaked at 202. Normally it peakes at 198 outside and probably lower on a treadmill. Won't that affect the TT if I do it on a hot day?
2006-09-25 3:26 PM
in reply to: #550965

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
Once the test is done correctly, how long is it good for? I'm just looking for a rough idea here. To put it another way, does LT change much over time? If so, are we usually looking at weeks, months, or years to shift it substantially, maybe 5 bpm?

Edit: Cross-posted. I wasn't planning to hi-jack. I didn't realize Glenn had more questions.

Edited by Micawber 2006-09-25 3:37 PM
2006-09-25 3:39 PM
in reply to: #551160

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
TriathleteNut - 2006-09-25 1:23 PM
mikericci - 2006-09-25 12:52 PM

TriathleteNut - 2006-09-25 12:33 PM
mikericci - 2006-09-25 11:43 AM Good effort - just a little too much. That was your hard effort for this week, so next week give it another go - throttle back the effort in the beginning and see what you can do. If anything you want to see your HR RISE throughout the test - when I am unfit I tend to see the numbers fall just like you did - it's a common mistake and it may take a few efforts to get it right. A 10k race would suit this purpose just as well if there is one happening near you anytime soon.
Thanks - especially from the man himself! So a 10K race pace should be my goal. That sounds good. I just bought the Training Bible today but haven't thumbed through it too much. I'm assuming there's a HR Calculation in there somewhere to find your zones. G

You are welcome and it's actually Joe Friel's test not mine. I know he got it from somewhere else as well but I don't want to take credit for it.

There is a chart in there and there is a calculator on this site and on my site as well - on my D3 Tips page - you can download the Excel sheet to calculate the run and bike HR numbers.

A 5k would be ok, but only if it takes you longer than 30 minutes.

Why is 30 minutes such a significant number? A 5K will take me less than 30 min, a 10K more than 50 minutes. I can go back to some HR info on a 10K Personal Best run and maybe use that but I want to have an accurate test - one where I'm going for the Time Trial and not one where I'm just running. Also... on two hot days I ran my HR peaked at 202. Normally it peakes at 198 outside and probably lower on a treadmill. Won't that affect the TT if I do it on a hot day?

30' b/c you need a definitive number. We could say 20' and then people would be using 18, then 15, then 12 etc. So 30' is the minimum. In reality it should be an HOUR. That is what swim coaches and cycling coaches use for TT tests. Some swim coaches give 3x300 on 30' rest for a TT test - how that can be a TT test when your HR is dropping 25%? That's whole nother ball of wax, but use 30' for your TT.

For 10k, I would use the first 1.5 miles to get warmed and then just drill it for the last 4.7 miles.

And yes, heat will drive your HR up, pick the right day - or early morning if you can.

2006-09-25 3:42 PM
in reply to: #551164

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...

Micawber - 2006-09-25 1:26 PM Once the test is done correctly, how long is it good for? I'm just looking for a rough idea here. To put it another way, does LT change much over time? If so, are we usually looking at weeks, months, or years to shift it substantially, maybe 5 bpm? Edit: Cross-posted. I wasn't planning to hi-jack. I didn't realize Glenn had more questions.

It all depends...if you are new to racing it could move significantly - I suggest 1x per month per sport. So one bike test, one run test, one swim test each month.

If you are more experienced you may not see the HR move but you may see the pace move up or down. I hope this helps.



2006-09-25 4:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
Mike,
Does the BT calculator and your Excel sheet use different factors? I put in an arbitrary number 186 and 189 and the results were different both times in Z1-Z4.

Glenn

Edited by TriathleteNut 2006-09-25 4:06 PM
2006-09-25 4:51 PM
in reply to: #551235

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
Glenn, we are not totally done with the bugs with BT's LT zone calculator, I would use Mikes right now.  Will update when it's all working smooth...hopefully tonite.
2006-09-25 5:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...

TriathleteNut - 2006-09-25 2:03 PM Mike, Does the BT calculator and your Excel sheet use different factors? I put in an arbitrary number 186 and 189 and the results were different both times in Z1-Z4. Glenn

Glenn -

If you mean bike and run, yes they should be different.

2006-09-25 9:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
mikericci - 2006-09-25 3:28 PM

TriathleteNut - 2006-09-25 2:03 PM Mike, Does the BT calculator and your Excel sheet use different factors? I put in an arbitrary number 186 and 189 and the results were different both times in Z1-Z4. Glenn

Glenn -

If you mean bike and run, yes they should be different.



No. Ron answered my question. The RUN HR calculator is calculating different numbers than your Excel spreadsheet. Ron said they are still working out some bugs and to use your factors.

Thanks for replying.

G
2006-10-13 2:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
The LT HR zone calculator based off of Riccis spreadsheet is now working.  Just go to your training log control panel to configure your zones.


2006-10-13 3:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
Thanks Ron!

Mike - I ran a 5K race this past weekend. My average HR was 194... Of course it wasn't 30 minutes but it was a 26 minute run that I did all out pretty much. I was in Zone 5 for 21 minutes out of the 26 (based on my LT TT test).

When I ran my TT my average HR was 186... I was in Zone 5 for that TT for less than 10 minutes of the total 30 minutes I ran it.

Why is there such a difference?

Would the 194 be a higher HR because of 'race day' adrenaline or something?

Should I use the race HR average or my TT as my average HR?
2006-10-13 7:36 PM
in reply to: #568773

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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...

TriathleteNut - 2006-10-13 1:27 PM Thanks Ron! Mike - I ran a 5K race this past weekend. My average HR was 194... Of course it wasn't 30 minutes but it was a 26 minute run that I did all out pretty much. I was in Zone 5 for 21 minutes out of the 26 (based on my LT TT test). When I ran my TT my average HR was 186... I was in Zone 5 for that TT for less than 10 minutes of the total 30 minutes I ran it. Why is there such a difference? Would the 194 be a higher HR because of 'race day' adrenaline or something? Should I use the race HR average or my TT as my average HR?

Glenn

Dimiss the first test, it wasn't accurate. Ok - on the 5k, can you download the file? Is there any way to figure out the averageof the last 20 minutes?

I am willing to wager your LT is closer to 190ish, maybe even a little lower. So, for now let's go with 95% of the 194 number or 184. If you find those zones too easy, we can readjust. ok?

2006-10-16 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
Thanks for replying, Mike...

The only info I have is this:

time/distance/ave hr
8:11 1.00 181
8:10 1.00 191
8:28 1.00 195
1:01 0.14 197

I'm probably going to try it again this week some time to get a 30 min TT in.

Edited by TriathleteNut 2006-10-16 9:11 AM
2006-10-16 10:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...

TriathleteNut - 2006-10-16 7:07 AM Thanks for replying, Mike... The only info I have is this: time/distance/ave hr 8:11 1.00 181 8:10 1.00 191 8:28 1.00 195 1:01 0.14 197 I'm probably going to try it again this week some time to get a 30 min TT in.

Good info thanks. I would stick with the 184 until you re-test - good luck and let me know how it goes.

2006-10-16 10:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
Should I aim for Zone 5 when I do the test? HR above 189ish...? I was in Zone 4 when I did the first test I thought I gave it an all out effort and I was in the mid 180s ave HR. When I ran the race I was in the mid 190s ave HR.


2006-10-16 10:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...

TriathleteNut - 2006-10-16 8:53 AM Should I aim for Zone 5 when I do the test? HR above 189ish...? I was in Zone 4 when I did the first test I thought I gave it an all out effort and I was in the mid 180s ave HR. When I ran the race I was in the mid 190s ave HR.

Just go as hard as you can maintain for 30'. I would take it out easy and bring up the effort level. Ignore the HR and just run. You are overthinking this whole thing.

You don't know what zones you were in before b/c you haven't established any yet. Not sure how you can say you were in Zone 4 or 5 or whatever - you don't have a good test result to go off of.

So, just run hard, very hard. Let's see what the numbers tell us.

2006-10-16 11:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
Thanks. Will do. I just upgraded to Gold membership - feelin' guilty all this free advice.

I guess I meant to say in previous post that I felt like I was going all out and my ave HR was 185 and when I ran the race and felt I was going all out, which I was, I was at mid 190s ave hr. The test felt like it was much harder than the race. Could be mental, weather, etc. Test at 4:00 PM, high 70s and race was in the morning high 60s.

I'll do the test in the morning.

Glenn
2006-10-16 11:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...

TriathleteNut - 2006-10-16 9:02 AM Thanks. Will do. I just upgraded to Gold membership - feelin' guilty all this free advice. I guess I meant to say in previous post that I felt like I was going all out and my ave HR was 185 and when I ran the race and felt I was going all out, which I was, I was at mid 190s ave hr. The test felt like it was much harder than the race. Could be mental, weather, etc. Test at 4:00 PM, high 70s and race was in the morning high 60s. I'll do the test in the morning. Glenn

Don't feel guilty and it isn't free advice, you paid for it :-)

Now - yes temps will affect your HR as will your nutrition, hydration etc. Doing the test in the AM highly motivated after a good night's sleep and a solid day of nutrition from the day before will help. Good luck. No more guilt, we are here to help.

2006-10-16 2:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike Ricci's LT TT Test...
Mike - or any other LTHR specialist.

I have one more question. I did my run LT TT last month, and like many others doing it for the first time, I started out too fast, but only for about 800m, dialed it down a little and then finished with what I thought was my maximum effort. My avg. HR was 162 for the last 20 minutes of a 30 minute trial. I have been using that number to get my zones.

Not to turn this into an individual thread, but I think there is some confusion and by clearing up my case (as well, as triathletenut's case), everyone, including me will benefit. I, too, then ran a 5K yesterday. My overall time was 20:40, and I had nothing left at the end. So, using the logic above, should I multiply 95% times my avg. HR to get my running LT? I have a feeling I should do the test again, but wanted to see how to apply the logic above. I have a great output from my run through the garmin. Click on the link, and you can then click on HR in the activity dashboard and plot it against time and/or distance.

http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/episode/view.do?episodePk.pkValu...

I guess the question really is, how does LT corellate to avg HR? I know its not direct, or there wouldn't be any confusion. The other question would be, what would you use as my LTHR?

Thanks in advance!

Edited by schmize 2006-10-16 2:10 PM
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