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2007-01-19 10:56 AM

Regular
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Boston. MA
Subject: Lactate Threshold Testing
Just did my first test ever on the bike. It was indoors due to the weather conditions here in MA. I don't have a computrainer nor any speed/cadence devices. Basically, did a 30 min TT on the trainer. I did a 10 min WU and then started. After 10 min I hit the lap and recorded for the next 20 min. By the end I couldn't put much more effort into pushing the pedals any harder. My average HR for the last 20 min was 149. I'm currently using Friel's TTB and my 149 looks pretty low on his charts. Good thing is that I have been doing my recovery rides and Z2's properly w/o even knowing it.

I'm scheduled to due my run test on Sunday, but it appears as though it is going to be very windy up here. I've got a nice flat course I can run to do the test but w/ the wind I'm not sure I'll get accurate readings. I always have the option of doing the 30 min TT on the treadmill but I'd prefer to do it outside because that's where I always run.

I've just begun to take the HR training seriously and I want to get accurate #'s so I can get the most/recovery out of my trainings. Should I do the test indoors or outdoors?

I've got three years under my belt, 2 1/2's completed, 2 1/2's signed up for this year. IM hopes in '08 if this is any help.


2007-01-19 11:00 AM
in reply to: #660681

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Not a Coach
11473
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Media, PA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
Any chance you can do the run on Sunday?  If you do most of your running outside, it's better to do the test outside as well, but if conditions are exceptionally tough for you it may be hard to get an effective test done.
2007-01-19 3:14 PM
in reply to: #660681

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Pro
3705
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Vestavia Hills
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Another option to consider is doing a metabolic test to ascertain your LT/AeT ... generally speaking it is common to be able to find a package deal to get your bike and run HR zones established for $150 via VO2max.

I did the 10k run test last October in a group format that was led by a USAT certified and experienced coach - and still got it wrong. The field test yielded higher results for LT/AeT via average of HR reading on a per mile increment. It turns out that I have built up the ability to buffer lactic acid over periods of time.

This helped mask the affects of running over my LT ... so I would essentially run out of gas w/out so much as a warning light coming on.

Blood tests are supposedly more accurate, but more expensive.

I know that this sport is expensive enough, but given that your entire HR training is based upon establishing solid zones - it might well be some of the best money spent.

2007-01-19 3:18 PM
in reply to: #660681


8

Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
I've always had a hard time getting meaningful test results on the treadmill. I wouldn't have a problem doing the test in wind. You may run slower with a head wind but the test isn't about speed, it's about effort. Your results won't put your HR higher that your Threshold but it may put it lower if you get a lot of tail wind. Personally I have no problem with slightly lower zones, especially at this time of year when you're really base building in Mass. It would be more of a problem when you start doing more intensity closer to the season.
2007-01-19 3:52 PM
in reply to: #660681

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

nel34 - 2007-01-19 8:56 AM Just did my first test ever on the bike. It was indoors due to the weather conditions here in MA. I don't have a computrainer nor any speed/cadence devices. Basically, did a 30 min TT on the trainer. I did a 10 min WU and then started. After 10 min I hit the lap and recorded for the next 20 min. By the end I couldn't put much more effort into pushing the pedals any harder. My average HR for the last 20 min was 149. I'm currently using Friel's TTB and my 149 looks pretty low on his charts. Good thing is that I have been doing my recovery rides and Z2's properly w/o even knowing it. I'm scheduled to due my run test on Sunday, but it appears as though it is going to be very windy up here. I've got a nice flat course I can run to do the test but w/ the wind I'm not sure I'll get accurate readings. I always have the option of doing the 30 min TT on the treadmill but I'd prefer to do it outside because that's where I always run. I've just begun to take the HR training seriously and I want to get accurate #'s so I can get the most/recovery out of my trainings. Should I do the test indoors or outdoors? I've got three years under my belt, 2 1/2's completed, 2 1/2's signed up for this year. IM hopes in '08 if this is any help.

Nice work. One thing that I have my athlete's do is an 'indoor' and an 'outdoor' LT - your HR is typically higher outside - so I like to use two ranges for HR training. That way we know if they are on a trainer, the HR will be lower.

I hope this helps.

2007-01-19 4:00 PM
in reply to: #660681

Champion
8903
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Your LT heart rate for the bike might not be all that low.  What is your age?  You may just not have a real high maximum heart rate.  My LT heart rate is around 152.  Over the past few years, the highest I've ever seen it on the bike has been about 168 and this is really hammering it up a steep grade, out of the saddle.  I'm pushing 59 years of age, and I've notice my heart rate decreasing as I get older.  My run LT heart rate is about 10 beats higher.

 



2007-01-19 4:20 PM
in reply to: #660681

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Master
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Cambridge, MA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Ooh yeah, the windy forecast is daunting.  But I still think you should go outdoors if at all possible.  TT's on treadmills are more than just a little annoying, they're almost dangerous.  You could get thrown off or mis-step while changing the speed and twist something.  Or trip over your own towel sliding off the handlebars...breezy outdoors doesn't sound so bad now, does it? 

FWIW I did my LT Run test last Sunday AM in very chilly pre-rain conditions on a 5K route I know in Somerville.  It wasn't entirely flat, but it didn't matter.  All that counted was that I pushed myself, and I did.  I got a 160 LT HR and think it's about right.  I'll be using HR training a lot more this year now that I know my zones!

 Cheers ,-Sunny

2007-01-19 8:41 PM
in reply to: #660681

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Expert
657
5001002525
Portland
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Hey!  I'm using the TTB too and this week am scheduled for LT testing!  We must be on the same schedule (assuming you are in week 4 of Base 1)

2007-01-19 9:59 PM
in reply to: #660681

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Coach
10487
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

hey I am also located in Boston and use one of the loops around the Charles for running tests or you can also go to the Harvard track (for free) and do it there.

if you have any questions just send me a PM or we could even go for a run around the Charles!

Good luck with your test!

 

2007-01-19 10:15 PM
in reply to: #661089

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Pro
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Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Something here doesn't make sense.  If you have developed the ability to buffer lactic acid then that means your LTHR is higher.  That's the whole point.  LT isn't where your body begins to produce lactate, it's where lactate is being produced at a greater rate then it is being cleared/buffered.  Running out of gas is different than suffering the effects of running above your LTHR for prolonged periods. 

Nothing wrong with blood tests but I think some very experienced coaches have found the results to be very comparable to field testing (when done properly).  That being said, VO2max testing can give additional useful data to help measure potential and guide training. 

brian - 2007-01-19 4:14 PM

I did the 10k run test last October in a group format that was led by a USAT certified and experienced coach - and still got it wrong. The field test yielded higher results for LT/AeT via average of HR reading on a per mile increment. It turns out that I have built up the ability to buffer lactic acid over periods of time.

This helped mask the affects of running over my LT ... so I would essentially run out of gas w/out so much as a warning light coming on.

Blood tests are supposedly more accurate, but more expensive.

2007-01-19 10:33 PM
in reply to: #660681

Elite
3650
200010005001002525
Laurium, MI
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Good thing is that I have been doing my recovery rides and Z2's properly w/o even knowing it.

RPE zones lining up with your HR zones is an indicator that you did it right.  Remember, the top of zone 2 should hurt some, just not so bad you can't hold it for extended periods.  IMHO, for base training, having your zones low isn't all that bad.  It matters more once you start including speed work, and by then you should be familiar enough with the test and your body to know if the zones are right.



2007-01-20 1:47 AM
in reply to: #661467

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Pro
4675
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Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
vortmax - 2007-01-19 10:33 PM

Remember, the top of zone 2 should hurt some, just not so bad you can't hold it for extended periods. 

Not sure I agree with that!  The top of zone 2 is still aerobic and well below LT so why do you say it "should hurt some"

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/trainingplans/ericschwartz/trainingintensity.asp



Edited by Birkierunner 2007-01-20 1:47 AM
2007-01-20 5:39 AM
in reply to: #661504

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Pro
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Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

I agree.  Z1 should be an almost guilty easy effort, Z2 is your "all day" zone and should generally be very comfortable.  Even Z3 shouldn't take a whole lot of focus and determination on the lower side.  I do seem to personally feel it takes more effort on the bike though...so Z3 on the bike for me takes some focus to maintain and I feel like I'm actually riding at a good pace...but it still doesn't get into that suffering stage.

Birkierunner - 2007-01-20 2:47 AM
vortmax - 2007-01-19 10:33 PM

Remember, the top of zone 2 should hurt some, just not so bad you can't hold it for extended periods.

Not sure I agree with that! The top of zone 2 is still aerobic and well below LT so why do you say it "should hurt some"

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/trainingplans/ericschwartz/trainingintensity.asp

2007-01-20 8:09 AM
in reply to: #661514

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Veteran
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Tucson, AZ
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
TH3_FRB - 2007-01-20 6:39 AM

I agree. Z1 should be an almost guilty easy effort, Z2 is your "all day" zone and should generally be very comfortable. Even Z3 shouldn't take a whole lot of focus and determination on the lower side. I do seem to personally feel it takes more effort on the bike though...so Z3 on the bike for me takes some focus to maintain and I feel like I'm actually riding at a good pace...but it still doesn't get into that suffering stage.

Within this past week I came to realize what this actually feels like. I recently re-tested my HR zones and found I was off by about 10bpm. What I thought was Zone 2 had actually been Zone 1 all along. So for the past 3 months I've been cruising along at that 'guilty' pace... no wonder everything felt so easy. This week I kicked a few of my runs up to Z2 and it takes a bit more effort, mainly because I have to train my body how to hold this slightly faster pace. I think in another week or two I should be able to find that 'groove' and just put it on cruise control and hold a steady mid-Z2 heartrate.

Mike Ricci has a good article on run/bike pacing (basically saying the same thing you just said)...

http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/steady1.html
2007-01-20 11:03 AM
in reply to: #661385

Regular
95
252525
Boston. MA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
That's where I'm at week 4 Base 1, I'm 30 years old.
2007-01-20 11:09 AM
in reply to: #661625

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

nel34 - 2007-01-20 9:03 AM That's where I'm at week 4 Base 1, I'm 30 years old.

Just an idea for you guys, but I use 3 week blocks, not 4. I know many Elites who do it this way and I find my crew gets many more quality workouts in over a season. I know that sometimes that 3rd week in a 4 week block can drag -so I like 3 week blocks. :-)



2007-01-20 11:21 AM
in reply to: #661629

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Veteran
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Tucson, AZ
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
mikericci - 2007-01-20 12:09 PM
Just an idea for you guys, but I use 3 week blocks, not 4. I know many Elites who do it this way and I find my crew gets many more quality workouts in over a season. I know that sometimes that 3rd week in a 4 week block can drag -so I like 3 week blocks. :-)

I assume you're talking for periodization purposes? If it's periodization, is it overall volume or sport specific? eg: you might have a 3 week block where you build up bike miles, then the next 3 week block build run miles, etc.

Is this something pulled out of Friel's TTB?
2007-01-20 11:25 AM
in reply to: #660681

Regular
95
252525
Boston. MA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
I've been using the three week build up and then a one week recovery.

Coach Ricci, are you saying to have a two week build up and then a one week recovery?
2007-01-20 11:25 AM
in reply to: #661639

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

nel34 - 2007-01-20 9:25 AM I've been using the three week build up and then a one week recovery. Coach Ricci, are you saying to have a two week build up and then a one week recovery?

Yes sir.

2007-01-20 11:27 AM
in reply to: #661636

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Carl Carlson - 2007-01-20 9:21 AM
mikericci - 2007-01-20 12:09 PM Just an idea for you guys, but I use 3 week blocks, not 4. I know many Elites who do it this way and I find my crew gets many more quality workouts in over a season. I know that sometimes that 3rd week in a 4 week block can drag -so I like 3 week blocks. :-)
I assume you're talking for periodization purposes? If it's periodization, is it overall volume or sport specific? eg: you might have a 3 week block where you build up bike miles, then the next 3 week block build run miles, etc. Is this something pulled out of Friel's TTB?

Yes, I am. It can be used for either sport specific or overall volume. I use it in my normal every day training cycles. This is not from the TTB, no. This is from years of experience and experimentation.

2007-01-20 11:32 AM
in reply to: #660681

Regular
95
252525
Boston. MA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
Yeah, I can see that type of block working for me. I really look forward to the recovery weeks. I can see getting great work done for the two weeks knowing that there is recovery in sight. Do you still do the testing w/ your athletes every third week?

I'm fine with the four week blocks mentally and physically for now, but who knows how I'll react when the BT workouts begin which is coming up in Base 2.


2007-01-20 11:36 AM
in reply to: #661644

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

nel34 - 2007-01-20 9:32 AM Yeah, I can see that type of block working for me. I really look forward to the recovery weeks. I can see getting great work done for the two weeks knowing that there is recovery in sight. Do you still do the testing w/ your athletes every third week? I'm fine with the four week blocks mentally and physically for now, but who knows how I'll react when the BT workouts begin which is coming up in Base 2.

Training is testing and testing is training - so the tests are monthly usually. I don't always stick to a set schedule with the testing. That is the 'art' part of coaching.

2007-01-20 11:41 AM
in reply to: #661629

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Coach
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
mikericci - 2007-01-20 11:09 AM

nel34 - 2007-01-20 9:03 AM That's where I'm at week 4 Base 1, I'm 30 years old.

Just an idea for you guys, but I use 3 week blocks, not 4. I know many Elites who do it this way and I find my crew gets many more quality workouts in over a season. I know that sometimes that 3rd week in a 4 week block can drag -so I like 3 week blocks. :-)

Mike, do you do this based on the studies which suggest that after a 3 week period of intense/specific training the body sort of get use to the stress even though the workload might be increasing, hence anything longer than that without a recovery period for the body to absorb/adapt that work will no longer produce further results? IOW if we could place this in a graph, the slope of the curve will flatten after 3 weeks without a recovery/unload period? (I hope I was able to explain that correctly) Or do you do it base on other observations/experiences you have gain through your years of coaching? Maybe both?

Thanks for your response!



Edited by amiine 2007-01-20 11:43 AM
2007-01-20 11:53 AM
in reply to: #661652

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
amiine - 2007-01-20 9:41 AM
mikericci - 2007-01-20 11:09 AM

nel34 - 2007-01-20 9:03 AM That's where I'm at week 4 Base 1, I'm 30 years old.

Just an idea for you guys, but I use 3 week blocks, not 4. I know many Elites who do it this way and I find my crew gets many more quality workouts in over a season. I know that sometimes that 3rd week in a 4 week block can drag -so I like 3 week blocks. :-)

Mike, do you do this based on the studies which suggest that after a 3 week period of intense/specific training the body sort of get use to the stress even though the workload might be increasing, hence anything longer than that without a recovery period for the body to absorb/adapt that work will no longer produce further results? IOW if we could place this in a graph, the slope of the curve will flatten after 3 weeks without a recovery/unload period? (I hope I was able to explain that correctly) Or do you do it base on other observations/experiences you have gain through your years of coaching? Maybe both?

Thanks for your response!

Jorge

Its not based on any study - just my experience actually. You could call my athletes my own 'study', although not documented, it definitely has it's place. It gets even more complicated for an advanced athlete in terms of periodization - and that's one philosophy I keep close to the vest b/c I know it works.

2007-01-20 12:08 PM
in reply to: #660681

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Coach
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
That’s very interesting and good to know! I like to follow what the scientific world has to say regarding tri training based on testing, but as you already mentioned “the art of coaching” it is also as much or even more important. Once you start working and knowing an athlete it is crazy how many things a coach needs to consider in order to help him/her to achieve athletic goals in many cases with limited time. It is pretty cool to see/learn how guys like you make it look easy because of your years of experience and it is a good reminder that even when coaching might not be rocket science, it isn’t as simple as many want to believe.

Anyway, I’ll continue to patiently wait to have a chance to pick your brain if you get to offer some sort of coaching course    Hey do you guys offer training camps? I looked on your website but couldn’t find anything…

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