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Run training questions...
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 2007-01-22 2:05 PM |
Member  43  Cheese Country |  Subject: Run training questions...Hello! A new year and a a BUNCH of new goals!! :D I'm very excited to get my training started this year. Last year I was new to the whole Triathlon experience doing 2 sprints; one VERY LONG sprint!! This year I'm doing 3 tris, and to keep my training MOVING during sprint time I signed up for a half marathon in May. My running has always been my weakest event.. so I got this great half marathon training plan that's 12 weeks. I've got some time to prep for the training plan, which I definately NEED. My question is WHEN should I begin focusing on speed? Currently I'm pumping out 3 miles 4-5 days a week w/ some effort. Typically I need to pause 1-2 times for about a minute or so. I would like to increase speed from a steady 12 to 10 minutes, when should I do it? A friend is recommending get up to doing 4 miles w/out much effort & no breaks then work on speed... what are your thoughts? Thank you! |
| 2007-01-22 2:09 PM in reply to: #663571 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290  The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Run training questions... |
| 2007-01-22 2:18 PM in reply to: #663571 |
Elite 3088  Austin, TX Gold member | Subject: RE: Run training questions... Bear is brief but correct. Over at ST, there's a great sig line: "Speed is the icing on the cake. You don't have the cake yet." Translation: build your base first, then build your speed. |
| 2007-01-22 2:21 PM in reply to: #663571 |
Pro 4481 Reston | Subject: RE: Run training questions... If you are doing 3 miles with "some effort," then what it the reason that you need to take a break? It would seem that you are probably pushing pretty hard if you have the need to stop and take a break. Your friend's recommendation of doing 4 miles without much effort doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If you aren't really putting any effort into it, then you aren't going to get anything out of it. (I might get hosed for saying that) Your half marathon plan that you are using will probably incorporate some speed and track workouts. If you are currently running 5 days a week and have a pretty good base, then I would say its fine to go ahead and do those workouts as you go along. Another important question to ask yourself is if you want to be able to run a half marathon at a 12:00 pace, or run 3 miles at a 9:00 pace. Those are definitely going to be two different ways to train yourself. Edited by 3558 2007-01-22 2:22 PM |
| 2007-01-22 2:21 PM in reply to: #663597 |
| Master 1362 Charlotte, NC | Subject: RE: Run training questions... dgunthert - 2007-01-22 3:18 PM Bear is brief but correct. Over at ST, there's a great sig line: "Speed is the icing on the cake. You don't have the cake yet." Translation: build your base first, then build your speed. Mmmmmmm... more cake.... Good question and great quick answers. I was wondering the same stuff since I can't seem to get past 10 min/mile over a decent distance. THANKS! |
| 2007-01-22 2:24 PM in reply to: #663571 |
| Crystal Lake, IL | Subject: RE: Run training questions... Depending on your knowledege of training theories this may seem like cryptic advice. Base building is something you should research. I was brand new to running a year and a half ago and once I found out what to do I did nothing but base running for a long time. My 5K time dropped 6 minutes in 6 months. Base building alone can improve your speed quite a bit when you are starting out. As the others have said, once you have a run base then speed training at the right time leading up to an event will help you run even faster. Until that point, research, run long, run slow, and enjoy.
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| 2007-01-22 2:29 PM in reply to: #663571 |
Veteran 267 Washington DC | Subject: RE: Run training questions... I generally agree with the above posts. You need to build an endurance base with SLOW runs of much greater distance. I would recommend cutting back to 3 runs per week, but extending the duration of at least one per week significantly. I would also work very hard on technique. Learn to get your weight forward onto the forefoot, to use hip extension instead of knee flexion or extension for propulsion, and to run at very high turnover even at slow speeds. The longer you wait to improve technique, the harder it will be. Increasing your efficiency will make you faster much more than speedwork, which your body isn't ready for. More information is available in my book The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training and on my DVD Evolution Running: Run Faster with Fewer Injuries. Both are available at www.EvolutionRunning.com Good luck and be patient before starting speedwork! Ken |
| 2007-01-22 2:55 PM in reply to: #663571 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Run training questions... KenMierke - 2007-01-22 2:29 PM I generally agree with the above posts. You need to build an endurance base with SLOW runs of much greater distance. I would recommend cutting back to 3 runs per week, but extending the duration of at least one per week significantly. I would also work very hard on technique. Learn to get your weight forward onto the forefoot, to use hip extension instead of knee flexion or extension for propulsion, and to run at very high turnover even at slow speeds. The longer you wait to improve technique, the harder it will be. Increasing your efficiency will make you faster much more than speedwork, which your body isn't ready for. More information is available in my book The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training and on my DVD Evolution Running: Run Faster with Fewer Injuries. Both are available at www.EvolutionRunning.com Good luck and be patient before starting speedwork! Ken Question: why not building your running base through frequency like Daniel's & others suggest? if the OP is currently doing 4-5x run a week why not just keep 4 short (20-30 min) easy runs and make one a long run (60+ min) to begin with and build up from there? |
| 2007-01-22 4:46 PM in reply to: #663597 |
Veteran 494 Tampa, FL | Subject: RE: Run training questions... dgunthert - 2007-01-22 3:18 PM Bear is brief but correct. Over at ST, there's a great sig line: "Speed is the icing on the cake. You don't have the cake yet." Translation: build your base first, then build your speed. Hummm, that is funny since my 1/2 marathon PR was following carb-loading on a $#%^load of cake! Agreed with the rest, build a solid base first, a good 20-25 miles per week, then worry about your speed. |
| 2007-01-22 4:50 PM in reply to: #663926 |
Lethbridge, Alberta Bronze member | Subject: RE: Run training questions... Stitch26.2 - 2007-01-22 3:46 PM dgunthert - 2007-01-22 3:18 PM Bear is brief but correct. Over at ST, there's a great sig line: "Speed is the icing on the cake. You don't have the cake yet." Translation: build your base first, then build your speed. Hummm, that is funny since my 1/2 marathon PR was following carb-loading on a $#%^load of cake! Agreed with the rest, build a solid base first, a good 20-25 miles per week, then worry about your speed. So ... you had your cake and ate it too? |
| 2007-01-22 5:14 PM in reply to: #663930 |
Veteran 494 Tampa, FL | Subject: RE: Run training questions... Micawber - 2007-01-22 5:50 PM Stitch26.2 - 2007-01-22 3:46 PM dgunthert - 2007-01-22 3:18 PM Bear is brief but correct. Over at ST, there's a great sig line: "Speed is the icing on the cake. You don't have the cake yet." Translation: build your base first, then build your speed. Hummm, that is funny since my 1/2 marathon PR was following carb-loading on a $#%^load of cake! Agreed with the rest, build a solid base first, a good 20-25 miles per week, then worry about your speed. So ... you had your cake and ate it too? I always do...  My favorite carb loading menu: Cake, Famous Amos Cookies, Pizza, More Cake |
| 2007-01-22 6:18 PM in reply to: #663571 |
Master 2411 Goodyear, AZ | Subject: RE: Run training questions... I agree that you would need to be putting in more "comfortable" miles before trying to increase speed. I went from running a 10 min mile pace to around an 8 min mile pace for runs under 6 miles, but it took me almost 5 months. The first 3 months were spent being able to run further. Runnersworld.com is a good resource for training programs and different training methods, as well as some other things such as interval training and track workouts that you could throw in there to help your speed when you are ready. Good luck. Use the log feature here on BT to keep track of miles & progress. |
| 2007-01-22 7:35 PM in reply to: #663682 |
Veteran 267 Washington DC | Subject: RE: Run training questions... I am not big on high run frequency, especially for triathletes and especially for beginners. Jack Daniels coaches elite collegiate runners, who put in triple-digit weekly mileage. I believe the risk of injury and of fatigue increases dramatially with consecutive-day running and as triathletes we have bikes to use on the other days. While she is increasing the duration of each run, I would definitely not have her run consecutive days. My clients - including world champions and professionals - rarely run two days in a row and I coach several of the fastest runners in the sport. One averaged 4:39 per mile off the bike on 3 days a week. Tired legs can get an effective bike workout, but not an effective run workout. Because a runner creates propulsion during a tiny fraction of the workout time, he foot-strike must be powerful even during zone 1 and 2 running at very slow paces. I believe that triathetes should make sure that every run is quality and rely on the bike for quantity. Ken |
| 2007-01-23 8:00 AM in reply to: #664085 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Run training questions... I am not big on high run frequency, especially for triathletes and especially for beginners. Jack Daniels coaches elite collegiate runners, who put in triple-digit weekly mileage. >>> True, but many coaches have applied Daniel’s approach to tri training with good results, hence I don’t think you should discard it based on the premise that he coach elite collegiate runner no? Why you are not big on frequency? In your opinion what is the downside of this approach? I believe the risk of injury and of fatigue increases dramatially with consecutive-day running and as triathletes we have bikes to use on the other days. >>> can you expand on this a bit? Is there specific studies showing this? Is there more risk of injury by running say 5x run a week (3x 20 min, 1x 40min, 1x 60 min) than 3x week (1x 30 min, 1x 45 min, 1x 85 min)? What specific benefits does one have above the other?While she is increasing the duration of each run, I would definitely not have her run consecutive days. My clients - including world champions and professionals - rarely run two days in a row and I coach several of the fastest runners in the sport. One averaged 4:39 per mile off the bike on 3 days a week. >>> Well comparing the training capability of an elite athlete vs a beginner isn’t all that accurate don’t you think? I mean besides the genes factor, and elite athlete also has probably a big endurance base, the ability to absorb greater workloads and the ability to recover faster no? But let say for instance the ITU guys (the fastest runners in the sport), I’ve seen the training schedule of some of those guys and many run 5-6x a week. Tired legs can get an effective bike workout, but not an effective run workout. Because a runner creates propulsion during a tiny fraction of the workout time, he foot-strike must be powerful even during zone 1 and 2 running at very slow paces. I believe that triathetes should make sure that every run is quality and rely on the bike for quantity. >>> I agree at some extent. Doesn’t that will also greatly depend on the training phase for a particular athlete? Someone leaving in the northeast will have a lot of trouble relying on the bike for quantity through the winter. Wouldn’t make sense for that athlete work more on developing a solid swimming, running base or both through this months and have some quality session on the bike? Sort of like a reverse periodization for the bike only? What about an athlete starting his/her training on January for an A race on August with a weakness on running and a strength on biking? Would you approach the training in the same way? Wouldn’t maybe a month or two focusing on running while maintaining swim/bike would make sense in this case?I am just trying to understand why you approach your training in that way. Thank for your responses! |
| 2007-01-23 10:09 AM in reply to: #663571 |
Member 43 Cheese Country | Subject: RE: Run training questions... Thank you to everyone.. all makes sense.. I think I'll go for frequency to build my base, until I can get on my bike... I'm in the frozen tundra of Wisconsin so no biking in my near future!! I've been running 3-4 times a week for a few months now so... I am confident I can do the 4-5 days w/out injury. Thank you again!! Dez |
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