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2007-04-18 2:38 PM

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Subject: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...
what I think I think:
I think any citizen has the right to protect themselves. Saying new gun laws or elimination of some guns would limit these terrible acts is not realistic. The truth is we live in a free society, which means there will always be limitations on safety whether its school shootings or bus bombings or any other heinous acts. Im not advocating this but if we truly wanted to create a "safer" society we would eliminate some speech and require everyone to be supervised for "potential character and social issues". Those identified would then be held for the safety of all other citizens. Obviously these solutions are terrible but not having these safe guards means killings and other terrible acts will continue as long as we are on this earth, that is the price we pay to live in a free society.

The better question for everyone in the VT massacre is why are guns not allowed on the campus? All of those hero's that held doors and prevented further deaths could have very easily stopped the shooter in his tracks if they themselves had been carrying guns.

(I say this with the idea that guns should be available to citizens but a better training and education program should be mandatory for anyone wanted to buy a gun. Why do we need to pass written and field tests to drive a car yet can walk up to a counter and buy a gun?)


2007-04-18 2:53 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

So, more guns in schools is the answer????

That seems very wrong to me. Turning our classrooms into armed camps would, I think, lead to more and more "heat of the moment" shootings, not to mention the property crime aspect of students stealing each other's guns.

I think that a more appropriate answer is deeper, more time-consuming (and yes, more invasive of privacy) background checks

(the problem isnt that there are guns, and the problem isnt that there are crazy people, the problem is that it is too easy for crazy people to get guns)

2007-04-18 2:55 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

jbillfsu - 2007-04-18 3:38 PM  The better question for everyone in the VT massacre is why are guns not allowed on the campus?

Because college students, who I hear binge drink on occasion, and loaded firearms might not mix?

Because guns in schools in generally regarded as a bad idea?

2007-04-18 2:56 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

It isn't about guns.  Its about crazy. 

2007-04-18 2:58 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

jbillfsu - 2007-04-18 3:38 PM

The better question for everyone in the VT massacre is why are guns not allowed on the campus? All of those hero's that held doors and prevented further deaths could have very easily stopped the shooter in his tracks if they themselves had been carrying guns.

Great idea. Then we would have had kids shooting at fleeing and innocent students just out of sheer shock and terror. "Oops! I thought you were the crazy gunman - sorry I shot you. You shouldn't have been screaming and running like that while I was screaming and running!" 

 a better training and education program should be mandatory for anyone wanted to buy a gun. Why do we need to pass written and field tests to drive a car yet can walk up to a counter and buy a gun?)

Now this is a great idea. I totally agree with this.



Edited by Renee 2007-04-18 3:00 PM
2007-04-18 3:00 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...
dr_evil_0818 - 2007-04-18 3:56 PM

It isn't about guns.  Its about crazy. 

I like the idea of psychological profiling to get a gun. You don't get in the army, and by extension, access to their guns, without one. So why not for the citizenry that wants guns?



2007-04-18 3:07 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...
by saying guns are allowed on campus I dont mean to have them laying around like bicycles. Any person that decides to own a gun would then have to go through harder testing and actual real safety courses. They would be responsible for that gun (ie they better lock it up when its not in use). The whole binge drinking college kids are crazy argument doesnt hold much, guns are allowed in off campus apartments where MUCH more drinking occurs than on most campuses. I say this having lived on two college campuses and now live in a fraternity house that we privately own and guns are allowed. I know three people that have them and all three guns are locked up and unseen. People that own guns and are good people are not the problem...

(I dont own a gun and have only shot one 2-3 times)
2007-04-18 3:10 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...
run4yrlif - 2007-04-18 3:00 PM
dr_evil_0818 - 2007-04-18 3:56 PM

It isn't about guns.  Its about crazy. 

I like the idea of psychological profiling to get a gun. You don't get in the army, and by extension, access to their guns, without one. So why not for the citizenry that wants guns?

Because there are a lot of crazy people who want guns in the hands of everyone, everyone, everyone....they're called the NRA.....

We have, as a society (largely because of the extortion lobbying efforts of the NRA) come to the conclusion that a school or workplace slaughter shooting every once in a while is an acceptable price to pay for the convenience of being able to waltz into Wal-Mart with some cash and waltz out with a firearm.

 

2007-04-18 3:13 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

It will be hard enough sending my kids off to college but if I know they're packing a gun I'll sleep a lot better night.

2007-04-18 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

I don't think this is a bad idea, the psychological profiling.

I guess for me, the argument with the VT student isn't really about what weapons he chose to use to carry out his destruction.  I think this kid had a will and would have found a way.  All of the arguments against gun control really don't apply to this student.  There was nothing controversial about his application and he bought the weapon well in advance of the shooting.

For me, the argument is how do we help the mentally ill?  This is one area of health care where there are not a lot of answers, few resources and fewer safeguards. 
 

2007-04-18 3:21 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...
I totally agree with Dr evil. This incident is not about gun control. Unlike many other school shootings where guns were taken from their owners this shooter followed the law. I think for me saying guns are the issue is shortsighted. This student had something in his life whether it was a group of things or a single incident trigger something in him that said the answer is to kill myself and over 30 others. That is a mental control issue and not a gun control issue...


2007-04-18 3:23 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...
dr_evil_0818 - 2007-04-18 3:14 PM

I don't think this is a bad idea, the psychological profiling.

I guess for me, the argument with the VT student isn't really about what weapons he chose to use to carry out his destruction.  I think this kid had a will and would have found a way.  All of the arguments against gun control really don't apply to this student.  There was nothing controversial about his application and he bought the weapon well in advance of the shooting.

For me, the argument is how do we help the mentally ill?  This is one area of health care where there are not a lot of answers, few resources and fewer safeguards. 
 

I completely agree with you about the mental illness aspect. We have a long, long way to go in answering many questions about how best to handle (or even define) mental illness.

It does seem to me, though, that in the case of the VT shooter there were a lot of clues/signs/indications that there was something seriously wrong with him (his repeated contacts with campus police in 2005 for example). It seems a little much that the question of whether or not this guy could get a gun was ultimately answered by a shopkeeper (I saw him interviewed on local TV) whose criteria for sales seemed to be solely on personal judgement.

But that's what the law in VA calls for. (we have some of the slackest gun purchasing laws in the country).

2007-04-18 3:27 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

jbillfsu - 2007-04-18 3:21 PM I totally agree with Dr evil.

With all due respect to Dr. Evil, did you think you'd ever type this sentence in a completely serious discussion?  Who are you, Number Two?

 

2007-04-18 3:30 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...
hahaha, I was thinking the exact same thing when I wrote it. Is this really the name of the person I am agreeing with?
2007-04-18 3:59 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

jbillfsu, you're not quite evil enough.

Well it's true! You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough.

jbillfsu, you had your chance, okay? I've already had someone created in my image. He's evil, he wants to take over the world, and he fits easily into most overhead storage bins.

Edited by dr_evil_0818 2007-04-18 4:00 PM
2007-04-18 6:33 PM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

You know, a lot of college students are really unstable. As someone who teaches college (just a TA at the moment), I know I'm much happier knowing that there is a weapons ban in effect on campus. Kind of like if/when I get the high school teaching job - much happier knowing that the kids aren't packing.

Because unfortunately, not every gun owner is a well-educated upstanding citizen. Most of them are though.

 



2007-04-19 7:09 AM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...

I find a couple of points interesting:

If you think a weapons ban on campus prevents weapons from being on campus, you are delusional.  Do you think this shooter would have not brought his guns to school because of the ban?  Do you think there are not students that do carry weapons on a regular basis just because of a ban?  I agree there could be issues with irresponsible gun owners on campus, but there are irresponsible gun owners everywhere.

I also get a chuckle out of the fact that every gun control debate that happens there is at least one person, usually an american, that honestly thinks the answer is more guns.  I just think that is funny.

I think that guns are like SUVs.  I don't really have a problem with either, but most people that own them don't need them.  And a lot of people that have them, shouldn't.

2007-04-19 7:22 AM
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Subject: RE: What I think I think regarding VTech and guns...
A few years ago Minnesota passed a concealed gun law, allowing permittees to carry concealed weapons.  People opposed to the law claimed the law would lead to numerous killings by overzealous people carrying concealed guns.  About the same time (or a year or so earlier) a Twin Cities light rail project was rammed down the throat of MN taxpayers.  Interestingly, more people have been killed by light rail trains at traffic intersections than have been killed by someone carrying a legal concealed weapon.
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