General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Running - I could use some good advice please Rss Feed  
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2007-04-20 11:37 AM

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Subject: Running - I could use some good advice please
This is kind of a goofy question - any help is greatly appreciated:

I’m training for my first sprint and have a 3-mile run in 4 ½ weeks. I can run the 3 miles but VERY slowly (9 to 10 min/mile). Running just doesn’t come natural for me, when running I literally feel like I’m beating the crud out of my entire body. Afterwards I’m sore and tired. (Conversely when I swim or bike I feel great afterwards) If I didn’t know any better I’d say I was too tense, which causes each step to feel as though I have a 20lb. weight on my head but I’ve concentrated on relaxing so I’m pretty sure that’s not it. I see other runners (as they wiz past me) and see their grace – how do I get that and how do I increase my speed and distance capabilities w/o feeling like I ran into a dump truck?

Here’s some info that may be helpful to know: I use Nike Air Pegasus, which were recommended / fitted for me by a local running store. I run on asphalt and wear high-quality socks. I’m 37, 6ft and 176lbs (down from 222lbs when I started training). I run 3 miles 3x a week – I try to run more time & distance but more than 3 miles at a time and I get really sore – I just cant seem to speed up or increase my distance……….

Thanks heaps!


2007-04-20 12:13 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please

First of all, smart move going to a running store to get fit.  :D  My personal experience with the Air Pegasus is that it's a very firm shoe, and when I wore it (I work at such a running store, part time), I felt EVERY bump on the sidewalk, road, etc.  I ran a little with it, to test it, and I couldn't stand it.  I prefer a softer, more cushiony feel, something like the Asics Cumulus, Brooks Glycerin, Mizuno Wave Rider, or the Saucony Grid Omni.

Second, 10:00 min miles is not slow, I don't think.    I ran 10:00s the entire season last year and did fine, but yes, I'd like to be faster.  This may sound crazy, but you might try slowing down just a little bit more, and see if that helps.  I incurred a leg injury this year coming off the off-season b/c I was trying to run 8:00's, and when I finally slowed down, it has begun to get better.  Also, what kind of surfaces do you run on?  If I run on a sidewalk, I feel like I'm beat up more than if I run on asphalt.  The softer the surface, the better your body feels as far as being beat up from the surface.

Anyway, my recommendation is try to find as soft a surface as possible to run on, and at least consider trying a softer shoe.  Good luck and keep up the great work - you'll make a breakthrough and it'll all be worth it!

2007-04-20 12:14 PM
in reply to: #770144

Iron Donkey
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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please
1). Heart Rate Monitor to monitor your aerobic state.
2). Do you have a tendency to:
a). Land on your heel with an elongated stride?
b). Lift your knees high?
c). Clench your hands and tighten up?
d). Always run on the same side of the road?
e). Start out too fast?
f). Don't do variety in your training?

There are many other factors (doing most or all of your training/running on asphalt/concrete/blacktop does add stress, so I tend to get over to the softer, and, hopefully, level shoulder as much as possible), but time and practice will make you better.

Don't be discouraged. More than likely those persons that were passing you spent a lot of time training getting to where they are now. Additionally, there are persons that have natural talent.

Please be patient and make it fun instead of a chore.

Doing a few LSDs (long, slow distance) helps your endurance, and Fartleks (links provided below for assistance) and Tempo runs are a good change-of-pace.

http://www.coolrunning.com.au/expert/1997c002.shtml
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=722
http://www.time-to-run.com/training/methods/fartlek/session.htm


Good luck.
2007-04-20 12:17 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please
How hard are you running those 3 x 3miles?  You need to run more to get faster, so run easier.    Work on getting good leg turnover (goal of 90 left foot strikes per minute) and not overstriding (land with your foot underneath you, not out in front of your body where it will act like a brake and absord greater impact).
2007-04-20 12:27 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please
I had (and still have) the same problem when running. I'm a bigger guy, too and the pounding can be difficult on the ol body. I bought some new shoes and started working out on the treadmill to get my body ready for running on asphalt. The treadmill is a little more forgiving when you start out and gives you and your body time to adjust to the demands of running. It also helped me develop a consisitent "glide" in my stride so I'm not pounding my feet on the surface. Not being worried about pounding my body allowed me to concentrate on cardio work as well. I now run on asphalt/sidewalks w/o too much problem and still run on the tread for consistent work on my form.

Good luck!
j
2007-04-20 12:28 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please

I have no expert advice, but I will say that I'm really not much faster than your 10 min miles, and out of all 3 disciplines, running leaves me the most drained after hard efforts - just like your dump truck analogy.

As for seeing other runners gliding along with seemingly little effort - I think those are hallucinations you see when you're ready to bonk 

Also, 3 miles (5K) was a HUGE barrier for me to get over, whether it was physical or psychological.



2007-04-20 12:28 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please
It's hard to tell since you don't have your logs public, however making some assumptions based on what you said it sounds like you might be training too fast and not using enough variety within your running.

You mention running a 5k slow (9-10'/mile - which isn't slow BTW) but I get the impression that you are training at this speed as well. To improve at running, espeically as a novice, you want to run more and, although it seems counter-intuitive, you will be able to do this by slowing down.

Being sore and needing lots of recovery indicates that you are working too hard every time out - focus on running at a converstational level for all runs until you are running with very little/no soreness following the workout. As your 3 milers are probably taking you close to 30' currently and you will be slowing down, I would work on having 3 20-30' runs a week until you are doing this consistently with little recovery cost.

Congratulations on the weightloss - enjoy the training

Shane
2007-04-20 12:51 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Crystal Lake, IL
Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please

Everybody is giving good advice.  My first reaction is to wonder about your form.  Are you bouncing up and down too much?  Extending the leg forward too much and jarring your body when your heel strikes?  Do a forum search here about chi running and evolution running and/or get some books/videos and try to be smooth.  Lean, flow, smooth.  Running easy.  Get the form so you can do the distances then the speed will come.

 

2007-04-20 1:41 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Runner
Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please

Alot of the suggestions are good.  But alot of them require you to run more.  To be able to run more, you have to slow down.  Drop your pace down, and start building up miles and frequency.

Once you get that aspect down, I'd start looking into form drills to work on your economy and strength. 

2007-04-20 2:00 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please

I stopped running due to injury in Sept. and had surgery on both legs in Jan.  I had a great coach (USAT dev coach of the year, wow) put together a return-to-run program for me to avoid shin splints, overtraining, and further injury.  I thought it would be adding minutes each day, but it wasn't -- instead it was a variety of run/walk intervals for the first 6 weeks.  My first non-interval run is this weekend (45 min). 

Left to my own devices, I never would have been doing a 40-min training run with 2min run 30 sec walk.   But, for the first time ever I have no shin splints (my surgeon said to thank the coach because surgery had nothing to do with that), no cardio problems, and a good speed, for me. 

Anyway, something to think about for training. 

2007-04-20 2:28 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please
All good advice.  I am a big fan of the run/walk.  It will build your miles and distances.  Yes, you will slow down, but your body will thank you for it.  I did run/walking for 8 weeks after my knee surgery and it helped me to slowly get back to where I was.  If my legs get tired now, I just walk.  and then start back up again.  The body takes a looong time to adjust to running.   The people who are fast, have been running for a looong time.


2007-04-20 2:28 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please
You have already received a lot of good advice, but I will add a couple of other thoughts

How old are your shoes? Conventional wisdom is that you should be able to get 300-500 miles out of a pair of shoes, but like you, I am big guy, and my shoes tend to wear out more quickly. At the first sign of any unusual soreness in my legs, I replace my shoes.

Also, even though you got fitted at a running store, not all running stores are equal. My current running store has a treadmill hooked up to a camera and a computer. It is great for to be able to see how you look running in slow motion in a pair a shoes that you are considering buying. The first time I went there, they noticed something that wouldn't otherwise have been obvious and they were able to suggest a different shoe as a result.

I will also add my voice to those suggesting that you slow down. Most of your running should be done at a pace that you could hold a conversation (although it might be real short sentences).

Finally, how long have you been running? It just takes time for your body to adapt
2007-04-20 2:55 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please

All aforementioned advice is really good.

You mentioned tension. I think if you feel tense you probably are.  I am a tense runner too, and it is draining. There are many running resources emphasizing form and relaxation to achieve safe comfortble running. Almost all involve the concept of a midfoot strike with your center of gravity in front of your knee to minimize the pounding on your body.

I don't know how long you've been running but if you're a novice you should be adding mileage slowly and only doing speed work once a week and an easy run and a not too hard long run. A philosophy my coach gave me is: your workout shouldn't be so hard it interferes with the following day's training. There are a lot online resources on training plans and how much volume to add. I guarantee you if you get a solid running base under your belt, you can start doing speed work and get faster. But before speed you should be getting comfortable with running.

I read the book CHI RUNNING and it really helped me with my comfort and speed. BUT, you must be willing to slow down a bit initially while you learn some new habits. This isn't the only book by any means but the only one I can vouch for.

BTW if you are new to running, 9-10 minute miles is pretty good. Don't focus on those who are passing you, that is fruitless since you don't know what their running backgrounds are. There will always be those faster and slower than you. If you constantly compare your performance to everyone else you will never be happy. Enjoy your own successes. Besides, when you get really good at running you will start to notice how many people are passing you on the bike.

hope this helps

 

2007-04-20 3:08 PM
in reply to: #770144

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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please

Forgot that you mentioned a race coming up. Since its a sprint I would say go hard (not too hard) on the swim and bike since you say those are comfortable for you and then do your 9-10 minutes mile run and see how it goes.

Since running doesn't feel good to you yet you may find that the run feels really hard after the bike leg. This doesn't mean you did something wrong. Thats just the way it goes. It gets easier with practice, I promise.

 No drinking on the swim!

Don't eat during race.

don't drink on the run after mile 1.

Have fun, and when it feels too hard smile. I guarantee it will help and it make for a better picture and no one will know you are suffering

And since it is your first race keep in mind it is a wonderful learning expereince and you are allowed not to be perfect!

hope this helps

2007-04-20 7:01 PM
in reply to: #770636

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please

No drinking on the swim!

Don't eat during race.

don't drink on the run after mile 1.



???
2007-04-20 7:49 PM
in reply to: #770237

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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please
JohnnyKay - 2007-04-20 12:17 PM

You need to run more to get faster, so run easier.    Work on getting good leg turnover (goal of 90 left foot strikes per minute) and not overstriding (land with your foot underneath you, not out in front of your body where it will act like a brake and absord greater impact).


This helped me enormously last fall. I really worked on getting my stride shorter and quicker and running came so much easier. It felt really quick in the beginning, but put my body in a better position.

I'm also a fan of the run/walk. I don't use it all the time now, but it really helped me get my mileage up, and I still use it for runs over 10 miles.

Hang in there, it gets better. Wasn't much of a runner before, but now I love it!

Edited by tmason 2007-04-20 7:52 PM


2007-05-03 7:40 AM
in reply to: #770144

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Springfield, NJ
Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please
Gang - Just wanted to say thanks and Wow, what a difference everyone’s advice made.

Not only am I running more now but I feel great afterwards (I used to be in lots of pain and hated running – now I want to keep going once I hit the groove) PLUS by “slowing down” and running more I’ve actually taken over 1.5 minutes off my miles and I’m now hitting 8 min miles, which was my mental goal for some reason. What’s more is my heart rate has dropped by about 9bpm too. All good news.

Special thanks to JohnKay for saying “(land with your foot underneath you, not out in front of your body where it will act like a brake and absorb greater impact)” and Hangloose for saying “[are you] Extending the leg forward too much and jarring your body when your heel strikes?” that’s EXACTLY what I was doing, and holy crud what a huge difference it made correcting that.

Thanks again.
2007-05-03 8:21 AM
in reply to: #786666

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Crystal Lake, IL
Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please

Brianclayton - 2007-05-03 7:40 AM Gang - Just wanted to say thanks and Wow, what a difference everyone’s advice made. Not only am I running more now but I feel great afterwards (I used to be in lots of pain and hated running – now I want to keep going once I hit the groove) PLUS by “slowing down” and running more I’ve actually taken over 1.5 minutes off my miles and I’m now hitting 8 min miles, which was my mental goal for some reason. What’s more is my heart rate has dropped by about 9bpm too. All good news. Special thanks to JohnKay for saying “(land with your foot underneath you, not out in front of your body where it will act like a brake and absorb greater impact)” and Hangloose for saying “[are you] Extending the leg forward too much and jarring your body when your heel strikes?” that’s EXACTLY what I was doing, and holy crud what a huge difference it made correcting that. Thanks again.

Thanks for the update.  Glad to hear you are doing so well! 

It's hard to give advice without all the info but I was a big guy who overstrode and had terrible form and felt like you did.  I see a lot of big guys doing that when I drive around my neighborhood and I just want to stop and help them with their form.  Once I got that glide feeling I felt like I could run all day.  It's fantastic.  Even with all the talk about running form here I still think it is underemphasized.  Yes, you need to run slower and build aerobic base.  Yes, it is important to follow heart rates.  Yes, it is better to have a higher turnover.   But IMO all of that won't be as productive (and running more will be risky) until you get your form down and find that sweet spot.

Form first!

2007-05-03 9:14 AM
in reply to: #786666

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Master
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Subject: RE: Running - I could use some good advice please
Lots of great advice in this thread already, but I wanted to the advice a friend gave me three years ago that was immensely useful to me. I was terrible on the run, and I always suffered from aches and pains after even 3 or 4 mile runs.

She said "Go to a gym and watch other runners on treadmills. Listen to how their feet sound on the treadmill. Some people are "BANG BANG BANG BANG" and some people you can barely hear. The quiet ones are the ones to watch. Then run yourself on a treadmill, and listen to how your feet sound."

I was much closer to "bang bang bang" than quiet. I needed to bring my feet way back underneath me and not out in front. And I needed to get more lean into my form, and run taller.

After doing this, my calf pain and knee pain all disappeared.

These days when I'm at the gym walking by treadmills, I just wince at the "bang bang bang" runners. That's just gotta hurt ...


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