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2007-08-24 7:51 AM
in reply to: #937723

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
I misunderstood your desire for power then. The kind of power I was talking about would help you if you need to make one hard push at the end of the race or wanted to explode up a hill to overtake a rider. Basically I was talking about cultivating and making more efficient your fast twitch muscle fibers. It gives you bursts of strength but takes a fair bit of time to recover. Training for that kind of power won't help you much over 60 minutes since your fast twitch muscle fiber will just plain stop working over a period that long.

One thing you could look at to help your sustained high output is trying to increase your lactic acid threshold. You are going to generate lactic acid but training your body to deal better can help you to eek out muscular performance over longer periods. Oddly enough, the best way to increase your lactic acid threshold is to just expose your muscles to lactic acid. In short - ride hard often. That's not too specific but I think if you just keep pounding away getting adequate rest, tons of water, and keep a good diet then shockingly enough you'll get better. Maybe throw some weight on gradually to really get a good deep burn but other than that I think you should just ride.

I also wanted to point out that you shouldn't throw a bunch of weight on at once. Perhaps it would be easier to take on weight in cycling than climbing but with climbing we start with just five extra pounds and pretty much never take it over 15 due to the overwhelming strain it places on your tendons. I'd think with cycling your knees especially could be at risk if you added too much weight too fast.


2007-08-24 8:19 AM
in reply to: #938720

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power

Just an FYI Stuart ...... amiine is a burgeoning coach and soon-to-be professional triathlete as he has qualified for his pro card through his home country.  So he has a bit of KnoWl3dGe.

(And I was right .... hehehe ... he was playing Mr. Pot Stirrer .......)



Edited by Daremo 2007-08-24 8:20 AM
2007-08-24 10:00 AM
in reply to: #937723

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
Hehe, yep I could tell he was trawling but I wanted to clarify my answer. Every community of people that I've been around develops their own lingo and may modify the meaning of words relative to other communities. In climbing when people talk about power they are talking about fast twitch muscle fiber's ability to do work. I realized that power might not mean that in the cycling world so I wanted to clarify before I got called out.
2007-08-24 10:06 AM
in reply to: #938565

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
amiine - 2007-08-23 9:51 PM
jszat - 2007-08-23 12:43 PM

amiine - 2007-08-23 12:13 PM After my not so fast bike split at Tman I decided to incorporate a few days of strenght training to my plan. Share your secrets to increase cycling power...

Is this some kind of trap for an ambush?

Sort of!

Many of the strength training debates around here arise from the assumption that strength training equal to weight lifting and I think that’s what causes a lot of misinformation in particular among beginners. Hence the reason of my post, to clear up a bit that confusion and help those seeking to improve their specific bike power by doing specific bike work. Of course, the endless debate weather weight lifting will benefit our tri performance or not will continue, but if we make the distinction and clarify this for beginners then each can choose whether to do sport specific strength training or weight lifting based on their specific goals.

Anyway, after having a bumpy season so far I am hoping to finally be able to train consistently for the next 11 weeks in prep for Clearwater and my goal is to increase my Functional Power Threshold (FTP = power I should be able to sustain riding as hard as possible for 60 min or a 40K TT) so I can finally ride 56 miles (on a flat course) around 2:20 hrs or 24mph and still been able to post a fast run. For that reason my main goal is going to be to focus on power sessions and here are some examples for those interested in working on their cycling power. (Increasing FTP should be pretty much the main goal of triathletes regardless of their goal racing distance)

·  Tempo rides – 1-2 hrs @ Z3 (HR or watts) 90-100 rpm, with 5 min spin Z1 as recovery
·  Stair Tempo ride – 1-2 hrs doing 1/3 @ low Z3, 1/3 at high Z3, 1/3 @ low Z4 (HR or watts) 90-100 rpm, with 5 min spin Z1 as recovery in between sets
·  FTP intervals - 5-10 min @ Z4 (HR or watts) 90-100 rpm, with 5 min spin Z1 as recovery
·  Intense FTP intervals – 10-30 min @ Z4 (HR or watts) 90-100 rpm, with 5 min spin Z1 as recovery
·  Hill repeats - 5-10 min climbing @ Z4 (HR or watts) 60-80 rpm with 5 min spin Z1 as recovery
·  VO2 Max intervals – 3-8 min @ Z5 (HR or watts) 90-100 rpm, with same duration as spin Z1 as recovery
·  Anaerobic – 30 sec to 3 min @ Z5+ (all out HR or watts) self selected rpm, with 5-10 min spin Z1 as recovery
·  Hill repeats - at lower rpm and higher gearing (selecting a 1+ bigger gear of what used during races)

For FTP and VO2Max intervals you can start with 3-5 and build up to 8-12.

Of course it is very important to develop a solid base 1st so this should come after that and how each of these sessions should fit into a schedule is a bit more complicated but this should give a good idea of what sessions to work on.

Ya know, I did use the sarcasm font as I have been a lurker on the whole strength training vs sport specific training and know where you stand, but this will all be very helpful in the off season as I hope to keep building on the bike.  My plan was simply to 'strap self to computrainer' but this will help give a bit more direction on efforts.  I have done zero leg work other than building miles on the bike with some tempo stuff from time to time personally and seen great results.  I may throw in some weight stuff to mix it up but am convinced it certainly isnt necessary.  Dont want to open that can of worms though cuz that has been beaten to death in numerous thread.

2007-08-24 11:51 AM
in reply to: #938939

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
jszat - if you have a computrainer you could enhance your bike training a LOT! Even though you can’t benefit with training and racing with a power meter all the time you could get very specific sessions in particular during the winter. I ride my trainer year around because it enables me to do hard sessions in a control environment, plus it is a harder session than riding outside. You could benefit a lot by learning how to take advantage of it and do specific sessions to increase your functional threshold power for sure. And you don’t have to wait until the winter; you could start that ASAP
2007-08-24 12:01 PM
in reply to: #937723

Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power

I can't believe I am reading this postfrom you Jorge!  Actually, I was going to talk to you this weekend about adding some days of ST to my plan in the off season.  It's mostly because I can tell I've gotten some muscle imbalances in the past year and I think some strength training will help keep me more injury-proof.  And it's also kind of for vanity reasons, because if I'm working out 9-10 hours a week, I feel that I should LOOK like it.

Anyway, I was just looking at this book today.  Strength Training for Triathletes.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1932549374/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-5443315-4483967?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

The Triathlete's Training Bible also has some info on strength training in relation to periodization, and I've used Mike Ricci's resources in the past:  http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/weights2003.html

 

 



2007-08-24 12:16 PM
in reply to: #939161

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power

amiine - 2007-08-24 11:51 AM jszat - if you have a computrainer you could enhance your bike training a LOT! Even though you can’t benefit with training and racing with a power meter all the time you could get very specific sessions in particular during the winter. I ride my trainer year around because it enables me to do hard sessions in a control environment, plus it is a harder session than riding outside. You could benefit a lot by learning how to take advantage of it and do specific sessions to increase your functional threshold power for sure. And you don’t have to wait until the winter; you could start that ASAP

Well, I will wait a lil bit cuz I got my first IM coming up   I did pick up a book on training with power late in the game late last winter but then it got nice in relative terms here early so headed outside.  With the rain in the midwest been revisiting the CT and forgot how evil that thing can be.  I will be embracing power training more this winter for sure.  I did one FTP test but think it read wrong cuz I was able to do some rides above that for 60 mins.  What kind of FTP gains do you think are reasonable over a 6 month period?

2007-08-24 12:28 PM
in reply to: #937723

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
depending on your training, fitness, base, etc but a solid goal would be around 10%
2007-08-24 1:38 PM
in reply to: #938763

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
Daremo - 2007-08-24 8:19 AM

Just an FYI Stuart ...... amiine is a burgeoning coach and soon-to-be professional triathlete as he has qualified for his pro card through his home country.  So he has a bit of KnoWl3dGe.

(And I was right .... hehehe ... he was playing Mr. Pot Stirrer .......)

This is just my opinion, but if I were looking to build a coaching business and to set an example for others as a pro triathlete, I'd be showing a little more class than this.

My response was: 

For weight room only work, do lunges or squats for 10 reps, then immediately after that put the weights down and jump up and down for 10-15 reps.

I probably should have written that "If all you have access to is a weight room..." You would fit in this category if you can't make it outside, or if you live in a flat area without many hills. This is a valid training method using weights to develop power. It may not be as sports specific as bike training, but it's an option.

2007-08-24 2:13 PM
in reply to: #939394

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
MikeTheBear - 2007-08-24 1:38 PM
Daremo - 2007-08-24 8:19 AM

Just an FYI Stuart ...... amiine is a burgeoning coach and soon-to-be professional triathlete as he has qualified for his pro card through his home country.  So he has a bit of KnoWl3dGe.

(And I was right .... hehehe ... he was playing Mr. Pot Stirrer .......)

This is just my opinion, but if I were looking to build a coaching business and to set an example for others as a pro triathlete, I'd be showing a little more class than this.

My response was: 

For weight room only work, do lunges or squats for 10 reps, then immediately after that put the weights down and jump up and down for 10-15 reps.

I probably should have written that "If all you have access to is a weight room..." You would fit in this category if you can't make it outside, or if you live in a flat area without many hills. This is a valid training method using weights to develop power. It may not be as sports specific as bike training, but it's an option.

is this directed to me? if so, please explain your above statement...
2007-08-24 2:59 PM
in reply to: #937723

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.

Edited by PennState 2007-08-24 2:59 PM


2007-08-24 3:04 PM
in reply to: #939464

Elite
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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
amiine - 2007-08-24 2:13 PM
MikeTheBear - 2007-08-24 1:38 PM
Daremo - 2007-08-24 8:19 AM

Just an FYI Stuart ...... amiine is a burgeoning coach and soon-to-be professional triathlete as he has qualified for his pro card through his home country.  So he has a bit of KnoWl3dGe.

(And I was right .... hehehe ... he was playing Mr. Pot Stirrer .......)

This is just my opinion, but if I were looking to build a coaching business and to set an example for others as a pro triathlete, I'd be showing a little more class than this.

My response was: 

For weight room only work, do lunges or squats for 10 reps, then immediately after that put the weights down and jump up and down for 10-15 reps.

I probably should have written that "If all you have access to is a weight room..." You would fit in this category if you can't make it outside, or if you live in a flat area without many hills. This is a valid training method using weights to develop power. It may not be as sports specific as bike training, but it's an option.

is this directed to me? if so, please explain your above statement...

Yes, it was directed at you. I just don't see the point of stirring the pot on this issue any further. The point you made is a valid one: you can do strength training without going into a weight room. Why not just leave it at that? What is the point of trawling for answers to a question to which you know the response?

2007-08-24 3:21 PM
in reply to: #939547

Elite
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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
PennState - 2007-08-24 2:59 PM

"This is just my opinion, but if I were looking to build a coaching business and to set an example for others as a pro triathlete, I'd be showing a little more class than this."

This is a completely idiotic statement. Jorge is an extremely classy guy who helps many of us on BT (including myself). He almost singlehandedly is the reason I will be getting a coach for my next tri season. I used to feel that coaches were not necessary in my case, but I have learned enough from him to pull a complete 180 deg on that.

I believe he sets an ideal example for an elite triathlete and coach!

I've also learned something from Jorge and I sent him a PM thanking him for it. I just get the impression that Jorge seems to look down on those of us who like to hit the gym as not being serious about improving our triathlon performance which is not true. It's just taking a different path.

I've learned a lot from BT as well, both the regular guys and the coaches. I often visit your log, Fred, just to see what it takes to do an Iron distance. I've tried to respond in kind by sharing my knowledge of strength training with weights to those who are interested in hitting th gym. For those who don't like to lift, that's fine. I don't pressure anyone into pursuing it. And when I have time I try to search for information and weight training and endurance performance. It may be that it provides no benefits at all. However, I am not convinced of that just yet, so I continue to research and to experiment on myself.



Edited by MikeTheBear 2007-08-24 3:29 PM
2007-08-24 11:27 PM
in reply to: #937723

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Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power

Yes, it was directed at you. I just don't see the point of stirring the pot on this issue any further. The point you made is a valid one: you can do strength training without going into a weight room. Why not just leave it at that? What is the point of trawling for answers to a question to which you know the response?

>>> Maybe you missed my 2nd post (or chose to ignore it) where I posted:
“Many of the strength training debates around here arise from the assumption that strength training equal to weight lifting and I think that’s what causes a lot of misinformation in particular among beginners. Hence the reason of my post, to clear up a bit that confusion and help those seeking to improve their specific bike power by doing specific bike work. Of course, the endless debate weather weight lifting will benefit our tri performance or not will continue, but if we make the distinction and clarify this for beginners then each can choose whether to do sport specific strength training or weight lifting based on their specific goals

You might not agree with my training views, the tone of my posts which many times are blunt or sarcastic, but to consider me classless after I went to state the why of my post and add training info for those interested in learning specific ways to improve cycling beyond the classic “ride lots” advice that we use so often, is beyond me. Yes I chose to state my post in certain way but I did it to make a point, which is how some automatically equate ST with weight lifting and that is incorrect.

Furthermore, by attempting to clarify how someone can ST via sport specific sport will allow newbies to avoid misconceptions and hopefully help them to better train by making their own choice of what they want to accomplish and either do sport specific ST, weight lifting or both. At least that is my goal because when I came here as a beginner I got a lot of good info but also followed some not so good advice (which I am sure was well intentioned) which made my experience sometimes a bit more difficult.

And just so you know, I have not real responsibility with anyone but my clients, still I enjoy to post and help others in many occasions cuz I like the sport, the lifestyle and I enjoy doing so. Yes sometimes I reply with wise a$$ remarks but what do you expect when you get to see the same question asked for the 1000000 time! I get many PMs about training on a regular basis and always try reply cuz I enjoy it even when it would be easy for me not to do so.

I've also learned something from Jorge and I sent him a PM thanking him for it. I just get the impression that Jorge seems to look down on those of us who like to hit the gym as not being serious about improving our triathlon performance which is not true. It's just taking a different path.’

>>> Again, I just don’t see how you can make such assumption but feel free to think what ever you want. I already explained in many posts why IMO based on the research of many smart people and my limited knowledge about sports physiology why weight lifting won’t necessarily help an endurance athlete to improve performance or avoid injury. If you understand the physiology behind it and you still believe that stressing your muscles and causing specific adaptations via completely different energy system, muscle fibers, etc, will help improve your performance, well what can I say? Go nuts?

I have athletes who like ST for many reasons, and guess what; we find ways to include that in their training. But many of them with limited training time (like most of us) and with the goal to improve PR their next race, BQ, or complete their 1st tri ever many times end up asking me to add more S/B/R and get rid of ST. Still others like to keep it in their routine year round and that is ok.

2007-08-25 1:34 PM
in reply to: #939946

Elite
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Denver, Colorado
Subject: RE: Strenght Training to increase bike power
amiine - 2007-08-24 11:27 PM

Maybe you missed my 2nd post (or chose to ignore it) where I posted:
“Many of the strength training debates around here arise from the assumption that strength training equal to weight lifting and I think that’s what causes a lot of misinformation in particular among beginners. Hence the reason of my post, to clear up a bit that confusion and help those seeking to improve their specific bike power by doing specific bike work. Of course, the endless debate weather weight lifting will benefit our tri performance or not will continue, but if we make the distinction and clarify this for beginners then each can choose whether to do sport specific strength training or weight lifting based on their specific goals

You might not agree with my training views, the tone of my posts which many times are blunt or sarcastic, but to consider me classless after I went to state the why of my post and add training info for those interested in learning specific ways to improve cycling beyond the classic “ride lots” advice that we use so often, is beyond me. Yes I chose to state my post in certain way but I did it to make a point, which is how some automatically equate ST with weight lifting and that is incorrect.

Furthermore, by attempting to clarify how someone can ST via sport specific sport will allow newbies to avoid misconceptions and hopefully help them to better train by making their own choice of what they want to accomplish and either do sport specific ST, weight lifting or both. At least that is my goal because when I came here as a beginner I got a lot of good info but also followed some not so good advice (which I am sure was well intentioned) which made my experience sometimes a bit more difficult.

Fair enough, I probably didn't read your post as carefully as I should have. But as I said, your point is well taken. I myself associate "strength training" with the weights because that's what I'm used to. I what just call riding hills "hill training," but no need to argue semantics. If triathlon lingo calls hill training strength training, I have no problem with that. And I certainly don't disagree with all of your training views; you know your stuff. We just seem to not get along when it comes down to talking about weight training.

amiine - 2007-08-24 11:27 PM And just so you know, I have not real responsibility with anyone but my clients, still I enjoy to post and help others in many occasions cuz I like the sport, the lifestyle and I enjoy doing so. Yes sometimes I reply with wise a$$ remarks but what do you expect when you get to see the same question asked for the 1000000 time! I get many PMs about training on a regular basis and always try reply cuz I enjoy it even when it would be easy for me not to do so.

I can sympathize about making wise a$$ comments.  

amiine - 2007-08-24 11:27 PM I've also learned something from Jorge and I sent him a PM thanking him for it. I just get the impression that Jorge seems to look down on those of us who like to hit the gym as not being serious about improving our triathlon performance which is not true. It's just taking a different path.’

>>> Again, I just don’t see how you can make such assumption but feel free to think what ever you want. I already explained in many posts why IMO based on the research of many smart people and my limited knowledge about sports physiology why weight lifting won’t necessarily help an endurance athlete to improve performance or avoid injury. If you understand the physiology behind it and you still believe that stressing your muscles and causing specific adaptations via completely different energy system, muscle fibers, etc, will help improve your performance, well what can I say? Go nuts?

I have athletes who like ST for many reasons, and guess what; we find ways to include that in their training. But many of them with limited training time (like most of us) and with the goal to improve PR their next race, BQ, or complete their 1st tri ever many times end up asking me to add more S/B/R and get rid of ST. Still others like to keep it in their routine year round and that is ok.

Yes, I understand the physiology and I have changed the way I train with weights accordingly. I certainly wouldn't recommend training a triathlete the same as a powerlifter - we have no disagreement there.  However, I think there are still some unanswered questions, and I'm trying to make an effort in finding the answers.

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