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2007-09-13 1:03 PM

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Subject: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?

Yes , Yes ... I know I need to just put in the miles and not worry about the pace and train in my zone and eventually I (may) will get faster .

My problem is , apart from a couple of weeks , I feel I have been putting in my time and while not averaging 30+ mpw , have been putting in at least 20 mpw with 2-3 runs in the week. However, my pace is kinda stuck at 12:00 (average). Hence , was wondering if there are any specific workouts I can do to improve my pace while still training within HR zones ?

Currently , my run training is:

Workout1/2/3: 1 hr of Z2 runs
LSD run: 2:00 - 2:30 of Z2 runs with the last 15-30 mins climbing into Z3

Was wondering if I should try and do some interval training to break the monotony and hopefully improve pace: for eg. 10/15 mins easy Z2 runs, 5 sets of 2:00 Z4 runs & 1:00 Z2 recovery followed by 10/15 easy Z2 running

Any opinions or alternative suggestions ?



2007-09-13 1:05 PM
in reply to: #963560

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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
Ummm, try a taper. You'll see results there.

Sorry, but I'm not a runner.
2007-09-13 1:08 PM
in reply to: #963560

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
sachinh - 2007-09-13 2:03 PM

have been putting in at least 20 mpw with 2-3 runs in the week.

That's it right there.

Increase mileage, and do at least 3 runs every week, then add another one. 

2007-09-13 1:33 PM
in reply to: #963560

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?

Agree with Scout.  Also, you're a candidate for Tålmodighet.

2007-09-13 1:43 PM
in reply to: #963567

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
Scout7 - 2007-09-13 11:08 AM
sachinh - 2007-09-13 2:03 PM

have been putting in at least 20 mpw with 2-3 runs in the week.

That's it right there.

Increase mileage, and do at least 3 runs every week, then add another one.

I agree I should just increase my mileage but I just feel that I'm not using my running time efficiently and of course , running the same kind of workout every time is downright monotonous .

and while I know the prevailing wisdom seems to be that I'll see benefit in a few months (years !), I was just hoping to do something to jump-start the process

so , doing intervals is not going to help the pace/HR efficiency ?

put another way, the training time for my LSD runs is really a lot . can free up 2-2.5 hrs but I don't ever get to cross 10-12 miles and I doubt I can see any chance of me doing a Marathon in early Nov. with this . 

2007-09-13 1:43 PM
in reply to: #963628

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
JohnnyKay - 2007-09-13 1:33 PM

Agree with Scout.  Also, you're a candidate for Tålmodighet.

Ha!  Was gonna point him to that article.  Good stuff!



2007-09-13 1:44 PM
in reply to: #963560

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
Maybe throw in some fartleks from time to time to mix it up with full recoveries in between and mix up your training routes.
2007-09-13 1:50 PM
in reply to: #963665

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
sachinh - 2007-09-13 2:43 PM
Scout7 - 2007-09-13 11:08 AM
sachinh - 2007-09-13 2:03 PM

have been putting in at least 20 mpw with 2-3 runs in the week.

That's it right there.

Increase mileage, and do at least 3 runs every week, then add another one.

I agree I should just increase my mileage but I just feel that I'm not using my running time efficiently and of course , running the same kind of workout every time is downright monotonous .

and while I know the prevailing wisdom seems to be that I'll see benefit in a few months (years !), I was just hoping to do something to jump-start the process

so , doing intervals is not going to help the pace/HR efficiency ?

put another way, the training time for my LSD runs is really a lot . can free up 2-2.5 hrs but I don't ever get to cross 10-12 miles and I doubt I can see any chance of me doing a Marathon in early Nov. with this .

Intervals WILL help with your speed, sure.  But you'll go flat quickly.  You can't sustain it.

There are no short cuts.  But, I think that you can easily add another run per week, and stay consistent with it.  You should try to get in 3-4 every week.  If you want to run hard on some of those days, then run hard.  If you don't want to, then don't.  You don't need to do intervals at all.  I haven't done them in a loooooooong time.  I will at some point, but for right now....  I don't fit them in.  I run some days at a harder effort, some days easier.

2007-09-13 2:27 PM
in reply to: #963560

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
There are NO magic protocols that will get you there. Forget about intervals or any other fancy stuff. What you need to do is run more. But you already know that. Just get out the door more often and don't even think about doing any fancy stuff until you are running at least 30 miles per week for several months. Then MAYBE you can start to think about adding some fartlek stuff. No intervals until you are up over 40 miles per week. There is no easy way.

Let your pace be what it is. Whatever pace allows you to increase your mileage steadily and still complete all of your workouts. Have faith (and patience) and you will improve. It takes time and work. Just run....

Mike
2007-09-13 2:32 PM
in reply to: #963560

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
sachinh - 2007-09-13 1:03 PM

Yes , Yes ... I know I need to just put in the miles and not worry about the pace and train in my zone and eventually I (may) will get faster .

My problem is , apart from a couple of weeks , I feel I have been putting in my time and while not averaging 30+ mpw , have been putting in at least 20 mpw with 2-3 runs in the week. However, my pace is kinda stuck at 12:00 (average). Hence , was wondering if there are any specific workouts I can do to improve my pace while still training within HR zones ?

Currently , my run training is:

Workout1/2/3: 1 hr of Z2 runs
LSD run: 2:00 - 2:30 of Z2 runs with the last 15-30 mins climbing into Z3

Was wondering if I should try and do some interval training to break the monotony and hopefully improve pace: for eg. 10/15 mins easy Z2 runs, 5 sets of 2:00 Z4 runs & 1:00 Z2 recovery followed by 10/15 easy Z2 running

Any opinions or alternative suggestions ?



Oh...another thing...2-3 runs per week is not going to do it. Check out some running forums to get a realistic picture of what average (or even below average) mileage is like. Even middle of the pack runners are running 5 times per week minimum. Triathletes often have a distorted view of how much training they need, especially on the run. You are not going to get substantially faster running only 2-3 times per week....period. I guarantee if you work up to at least 4 runs per week consistently, you will get faster. 5 times per week is even better.

Mike
2007-09-13 3:07 PM
in reply to: #963777

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
mprevost - 2007-09-13 2:32 PM
sachinh - 2007-09-13 1:03 PM

Yes , Yes ... I know I need to just put in the miles and not worry about the pace and train in my zone and eventually I (may) will get faster .

My problem is , apart from a couple of weeks , I feel I have been putting in my time and while not averaging 30+ mpw , have been putting in at least 20 mpw with 2-3 runs in the week. However, my pace is kinda stuck at 12:00 (average). Hence , was wondering if there are any specific workouts I can do to improve my pace while still training within HR zones ?

Currently , my run training is:

Workout1/2/3: 1 hr of Z2 runs
LSD run: 2:00 - 2:30 of Z2 runs with the last 15-30 mins climbing into Z3

Was wondering if I should try and do some interval training to break the monotony and hopefully improve pace: for eg. 10/15 mins easy Z2 runs, 5 sets of 2:00 Z4 runs & 1:00 Z2 recovery followed by 10/15 easy Z2 running

Any opinions or alternative suggestions ?

Oh...another thing...2-3 runs per week is not going to do it. Check out some running forums to get a realistic picture of what average (or even below average) mileage is like. Even middle of the pack runners are running 5 times per week minimum. Triathletes often have a distorted view of how much training they need, especially on the run. You are not going to get substantially faster running only 2-3 times per week....period. I guarantee if you work up to at least 4 runs per week consistently, you will get faster. 5 times per week is even better. Mike

Thats all well and good for a pure runner but with tris, you have to work on your other sports.  The cardio benefits of cycling and swimming also plays into this and make it unnecessary to pump out 5 days a week on the run.  3-4 days has worked wonders for me with at least one LSD, two moderate pace and one middle distance with tempo worked in.  Even so, you shouldnt touch much of the tempo stuff until you have a solid base.  The numbers are iffy, but you can see progress in the 25+ range depending on your distances.  And FWIW, I have used this to work into generally top 5-15% in most of my tris on the run. 



2007-09-13 4:54 PM
in reply to: #963628

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
JohnnyKay - 2007-09-13 11:33 AM

Agree with Scout. Also, you're a candidate for Tålmodighet.

thanks for pointing me at that article definitely an inspiring read !
heck , makes one think (gasp!) of run-training without the handicap of a HRM  

2007-09-13 5:12 PM
in reply to: #963681

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
Scout7 - 2007-09-13 11:50 AM

Intervals WILL help with your speed, sure. But you'll go flat quickly. You can't sustain it.

There are no short cuts. But, I think that you can easily add another run per week, and stay consistent with it. You should try to get in 3-4 every week. If you want to run hard on some of those days, then run hard. If you don't want to, then don't. You don't need to do intervals at all. I haven't done them in a loooooooong time. I will at some point, but for right now.... I don't fit them in. I run some days at a harder effort, some days easier.

Scout, thanks for your feedback .

if you don't run intervals and can run a 3:22 Marathon (awesome!) , then I sure as hell don't need to ! sure , you probably have an awesome base but if there's anything I can do to come remotely-close ... heck i'm still in the 12:00 pace cycle

To clarify, when you mean run hard , do you mean run hard in Z4 or do you run RPE-based ?

Agree with the part about getting 3-4 runs a week ... so many sports to improve and so little workout-time does a 30-min run count or does it have to be a 45min+ run to have any cardio benefit ?
2007-09-13 5:21 PM
in reply to: #963560

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?

While I agree that running more often will help, I think one can get better on 3 days per week if you're also biking and swimming to build aerobic fitness.

I'm relatively new to running and triathlons (<2 years).  I cut my half-marathon time from 1:52 to 1:40 between March and September and never got above 80 miles per month.  The majority of my miles from Jan-July were basically Z1/Z2 with the occasional tempo run - similar to you.  I've recently started mixing in harder tempo runs, 1mi repeats and 800m intervals.  I feel like its helping, but a big reason is for the mental benefits.  It's more fun to mix it up than to do the same thing over and over again.

To be fair, I've also learned to push harder in races and admittingly the 1:40 was much harder on me than the 1:52.  Race experience will give you pacing experience and the confidence to push yourself more in the later stages of your race.

Just be careful.  Add volume slowly and mix in intesity sparingly.  Consistent, injury-free running is the best way to make gains.

Good luck!

2007-09-13 5:24 PM
in reply to: #963777

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
mprevost - 2007-09-13 12:32 PM


Oh...another thing...2-3 runs per week is not going to do it. Check out some running forums to get a realistic picture of what average (or even below average) mileage is like. Even middle of the pack runners are running 5 times per week minimum. Triathletes often have a distorted view of how much training they need, especially on the run. You are not going to get substantially faster running only 2-3 times per week....period. I guarantee if you work up to at least 4 runs per week consistently, you will get faster. 5 times per week is even better.

Mike


I don't agree. My tri plan has me running three times a week and I am faster now than I ever have been and I just turned in a PR for a 10k. I am faster now than when I was strictly into running back in Colorado and going out for 35 to 50 miles a week running 5 to 6 times a week.

Tri training has let me improve my aerobic capacity significantly with the addition of biking and swimming, but reduce the amount of impact and potential injury due to miles and miles of running. I am able to get more total time in training in three different sports than I could just running.

For the OP - I have one long run on the weekends (90min - 2 hr) that are at a slower pace, but my other two shorter runs (around 45 min) are more speed and tempo runs. Fartlek, intervals, etc. They make the time running more enjoyable. It has worked for me.
2007-09-13 5:43 PM
in reply to: #964103

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
sachinh - 2007-09-13 5:12 PM
Scout7 - 2007-09-13 11:50 AM

Intervals WILL help with your speed, sure. But you'll go flat quickly. You can't sustain it.

There are no short cuts. But, I think that you can easily add another run per week, and stay consistent with it. You should try to get in 3-4 every week. If you want to run hard on some of those days, then run hard. If you don't want to, then don't. You don't need to do intervals at all. I haven't done them in a loooooooong time. I will at some point, but for right now.... I don't fit them in. I run some days at a harder effort, some days easier.

Scout, thanks for your feedback .

if you don't run intervals and can run a 3:22 Marathon (awesome!) , then I sure as hell don't need to ! sure , you probably have an awesome base but if there's anything I can do to come remotely-close ... heck i'm still in the 12:00 pace cycle

To clarify, when you mean run hard , do you mean run hard in Z4 or do you run RPE-based ?

Agree with the part about getting 3-4 runs a week ... so many sports to improve and so little workout-time does a 30-min run count or does it have to be a 45min+ run to have any cardio benefit ?

 
Every run "counts".



2007-09-13 6:07 PM
in reply to: #964115

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?

Aikidoman - 2007-09-13 5:24 PM I don't agree. My tri plan has me running three times a week and I am faster now than I ever have been and I just turned in a PR for a 10k. I am faster now than when I was strictly into running back in Colorado and going out for 35 to 50 miles a week running 5 to 6 times a week.

You're clearly not coming from a similar background as the OP are you?  Don't you think that 35-50 miles and 5-6x/wk have had some positive impact on your running base?

2007-09-13 6:17 PM
in reply to: #963560

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?

I'm glad to read the above comment that every run "counts".

Like the OP, I often run just 30 mins on my midweek runs and longer on one weekend run.  It doesn't feel like enough, and because I'm building base now for a marathon plan, I know it'll just take time to build.  But also like the OP, I had to wonder "should I structure my runs more, or is simple time on the run going to do the trick?"  Having trained for half-mary and completed (barely) a 20 miler, I know that time running does help and there's nothing fancy to it, but DANG it gets boring.  Plus it's nowhere near as functional as cycling for transportation purposes.  I can bike to work and take the long way to get more biking miles, and still arrive looking presentable.   But I certainly can't RUN to work and not stink up the place (or at least leave sweat marks all over everything).  Ugh. 

Practically speaking, do you all suggest adding run miles in the morning, in the evening, or on weekends?  Assume that my workday might allow for a 30 min run at lunch, but not often.

 

2007-09-13 6:24 PM
in reply to: #963560

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
Take a look at some running training plans, Hal Higdon has a few on his site.
2007-09-13 8:19 PM
in reply to: #964146

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
JohnnyKay - 2007-09-13 4:07 PM

Aikidoman - 2007-09-13 5:24 PM I don't agree. My tri plan has me running three times a week and I am faster now than I ever have been and I just turned in a PR for a 10k. I am faster now than when I was strictly into running back in Colorado and going out for 35 to 50 miles a week running 5 to 6 times a week.

You're clearly not coming from a similar background as the OP are you?  Don't you think that 35-50 miles and 5-6x/wk have had some positive impact on your running base?



"Clearly" you didn't read my post well enough. I was responding to the previous post (which I quoted) that states that 2 - 3 runs a week is not enough to improve run times. I disagree (assuming that the original post is tri training), and by personal experience, have improved my run times significantly with exactly that, 3 runs a week (plus all the tri training which I mentioned) and doing about 20 - 25 mpw (similar to the OP).

Of course 35-50 miles and 5-6x/wk had some positive impact on my running base, but does change the fact that that I improved my times (the orginal question) based on 2 to 3 run a week and set a new PR for 10k? Nope.....
2007-09-13 8:29 PM
in reply to: #964173

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?

what others have said.  Run 5 days a week  3 is enough to maintain, you need at least 4 to see progress.

If you are having problems getting bored on your runs, then you need to find some different routes or some people to run with.  If running is really so boring that you can barely stand to run three times a week, then why do it?

That being said, as you increase your base mileage and start doing long runs, feel free to up the tempo on the shorter runs into solid zone three.  Unless i'm in a build phase before a race, I'm doing all my runs at zone 2, but I will do a shorter run (3 to 5 miles) right now right on the edge of zone2/3 into mid zone 3.  That's part of the 'to learn to run fast, you have to run fast' philosophy.  It's not speed work, just harder LSD.

You seriously just need to forget about speed and pace and go back to the roots.   Make running fun, so you want to go out and do it.  Once you want to go out and do it, and it's ahrd to only go out 5 days a week, then you will get faster.



2007-09-13 9:18 PM
in reply to: #964255

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
N=1

It worked for you but 2-3 runs per week is not working for the OP as he has stated. He has a choice, run more frequently, run longer, or run harder. Clearly (and this is backed up by every credible coach out there and the research literature) running more frequently is the more beneficial choice.

Frequency first, then volume and only then, intensity. Gordo Byrn has run sub 2:50 for several IMs now and he has built that speed with very little interval work. Just a steady diet of frequent running at a steady pace. Read his 4 pillars article at www.coachgordo.com

Running 2-3 times per week is a good way to limit your development. Yes, you can improve from that frequency but you will eventually plateau and will require more mileage to get faster. Especially if you are going to race long (IM).

Mike
2007-09-14 6:20 AM
in reply to: #963560

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?
As others have mentioned, you will probably need to run more than 2-3x/week in order to improve at running and frequency is probably the way to get there. Your biggest run week in the past few weeks was around 3.5 hours, which gives you a fair amount of time to play with to run more often and set yourself up for a greater chance of improvment. You know your body best, but if you can handle building up to running 4-6x/week, you should start to see some of the improvements you are looking for.

Also, I haven't noticed if anyone has mentioned that your long run is probably too long for your overall volume - IMO, long runs should never be more than 50% of your overall weekly run volume and if possible (for triathletes) under 40%. If you are simply planning on running, I would say that this should be held under 30%.

Additionally, your other workouts are all the same; for adaptation you want to vary your workouts, like you have been thinking, but I don't think that you need to consider true intervals at this time. I would try to build (adding no more than one workout per week, following the 10% rule, etc) to include the following in your weekly run routine:

1 long run (1.5 hours)
1 tempo run (40-50' start with 10' at 10k pace and build to 20')
1 medium run (45' - zone 2)
2 short runs (30' - zone 2 and include strides or accels)

That would put you around 4 hours running per week but provide a wider range of paces and training stresses and should help you improve.

Hope this helps,

Shane
2007-09-14 7:26 AM
in reply to: #964129

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?

As was mentioned, every run counts.  There's always a debate going on somewhere about "junk" miles, but the definition can be vague, and varies depending on who you talk to or read.  But that's another issue altogether.  Suffice it to say that every time you step out that door to go for a run, it counts.  At the very least, you will learn something about yourself that day (sometimes you learn that you're tired or injured, but you learn something).

We've already seen the debate about exactly how many days to run.  Best suggestion that can be given: As many days as you can, within the limits of your time constraints, and what your body, and mind, can handle.  Do you need to run 100+ mi weeks?  Doubtful.  But I would say that a good goal to strive for (depending on what your current training goals are) would be anywhere from about 30-50 at the peak.  If you don't, you don't and it's not the end of the world.  What that mix is, I think Shane gave a real good example of how to mix things up.  And that's pretty similar to what most plans will suggest, too.    In terms of the percentages, I generally agree with Shane on that as well, but there are a few instances where you'll see a reason to have a long run at a higher percentage.  But that's only a couple times, and that's for a lower-mileage marathon plan.

2007-09-14 7:58 AM
in reply to: #964488

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Subject: RE: HR Training: How can I get fast faster ?

gsmacleod - 2007-09-14 6:20 AM  IMO, long runs should never be more than 50% of your overall weekly run volume and if possible (for triathletes) under 40%.

To follow up on this, if you get a kick out of setting new distance PR's (like I do) stick to this rule.  Don't let yourself "enjoy" a new long PR on the weekend if you haven't put in the work during the week leading up to it to justify the distance.  This will help motivate you to get in those weekday runs.

There ain't no magic.  Just run, baby.

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