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2007-11-04 11:20 AM

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2007-11-04 11:46 AM
in reply to: #1037124

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2007-11-04 1:51 PM
in reply to: #1037124

Champion
9600
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Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
I don't know but there sure are a lot of 4:XX:XX in the age group ranks! It is the easiest course going and I heard it didn't get windy till later, but really?
2007-11-04 2:35 PM
in reply to: #1037124

Master
2006
2000
Portland, ME
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

ST has a thread every big race about rampant drafting. I usually read it for mindless comic relief.

On a flat course with a bunch of competitive athletes there is going to be drafting...period. I just do not get why people are so surprised or really even care. It is impossible to monitor and marshal the entire course the entire race with todays technology. It is also unrealistic  to expect most athletes to police themselves or feel guilty pushing the boundries of the rules. It isn't a friendly game of lawn darts out there....it a race for Kona spots.

 

 



Edited by Jackemy 2007-11-04 2:37 PM
2007-11-04 2:57 PM
in reply to: #1037124

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
And, as I mentioned in my RR, the trip out to Hawi looks like he Tour de Kona.
2007-11-04 3:03 PM
in reply to: #1037326

Champion
8936
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Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

Here, I fixed that for you.

Jackemy - 2007-11-04 2:35 PM

It is also unrealistic  to expect most athletes to police themselves or feel guilty pushing the boundries off for breaking the rules.



2007-11-04 3:12 PM
in reply to: #1037124

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
The problem with a course like IMFL with no hills to blow up the packs orKona where everyone can ride 4:55-5:15 is that no one get's away and no one is willing to drop back 10 meters when overtaken. If you are riding along and are passed, you start to drop back and suddenly see that 6 guy's are all in a row drafting off that first wheel that past yours. So you now have to decide do I sit up as 7 people drafting pass by, hope there's not another train coming, and just try and hang of the back? Do you respond and try and pass them all back? Good luck with that yoo-yooing. I always think it's funny to read RR from draft heavy races and everyone writes the same thing, "The pack riding was so bad, so I just hung 10 meters off the back.." LOL!
I was caught up in one pack at Kona. Sometimes I was in the front, sometimes I was in the back, but often, I was stuck right there in the middle not knowing what to do. I don't think it's always an issue of people don't care, fred, it's a tough, in the race reality everyone has to manage. Do some people look to take advantage? Sure. But more often than not, it's simply a question similar abilities all trying to race their own race, the problem is that they all race the SAME race in terms of pace.
I was straight up about what went on in Kona in my RR, I hope we read similar things from the IMFL crowd and not the usual "everyone was drafting...but me!" It is possible to be the beneficiary of a pack while trying to avoid it and race true.

Edited by bryancd 2007-11-04 3:18 PM
2007-11-04 3:24 PM
in reply to: #1037345

Master
2006
2000
Portland, ME
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
DerekL - 2007-11-04 3:03 PM

Here, I fixed that for you.

Jackemy - 2007-11-04 2:35 PM

It is also unrealistic  to expect most athletes to police themselves or feel guilty pushing the boundries off for breaking the rules.

Thanks, watching football while typing drops my poor English writing skills to new lows. 

2007-11-04 4:19 PM
in reply to: #1037355

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2007-11-04 4:23 PM
in reply to: #1037124

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
The way it was handeled at Kona was as follows. The packs formed once everyone was out by the ariport on the Queen K. Marshalls wouyld ride up, the packs would self police and break apart, the marshall would move on, the packs would reform. It wasn't always intentional, there are a lot of rolling hills where the pack would get strung put, only to refom on the flats. Aid stations helped to break it up as well. The Marshalls gave a lot of slack to riders for the first 40 miles, trying to see if their presence alone would keep everyone in check. By the climb to Hawi, that's when they busted out the red card in earnest. I saw 4 dudes binged in front of me in a row.

Not sure how it was in FL, but again, hopefully we will get an honest assesment, unlike the BS on ST where everyone is a hero and everyone ealse a cheater.
2007-11-04 5:59 PM
in reply to: #1037326

Pro
3673
200010005001002525
MAC-opolis
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
Jackemy - 2007-11-04 3:35 PM

...it a race for Kona spots.

 

 

Only 4% of the field will earn a Kona slot.  I doubt more than 20% of the field started the race with a Kona slot as their goal for the day. 



2007-11-04 6:43 PM
in reply to: #1037557

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
Big Sexy - 2007-11-04 5:59 PM

Jackemy - 2007-11-04 3:35 PM

...it a race for Kona spots.

 

 

Only 4% of the field will earn a Kona slot.  I doubt more than 20% of the field started the race with a Kona slot as their goal for the day. 



Sorry, but wrong.
2007-11-04 7:15 PM
in reply to: #1037355

Champion
10154
500050001002525
Alabama
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

bryancd - 2007-11-04 3:12 PM The problem with a course like IMFL with no hills to blow up the packs orKona where everyone can ride 4:55-5:15 is that no one get's away and no one is willing to drop back 10 meters when overtaken. If you are riding along and are passed, you start to drop back and suddenly see that 6 guy's are all in a row drafting off that first wheel that past yours. So you now have to decide do I sit up as 7 people drafting pass by, hope there's not another train coming, and just try and hang of the back? Do you respond and try and pass them all back? Good luck with that yoo-yooing. I always think it's funny to read RR from draft heavy races and everyone writes the same thing, "The pack riding was so bad, so I just hung 10 meters off the back.." LOL! I was caught up in one pack at Kona. Sometimes I was in the front, sometimes I was in the back, but often, I was stuck right there in the middle not knowing what to do. I don't think it's always an issue of people don't care, fred, it's a tough, in the race reality everyone has to manage. Do some people look to take advantage? Sure. But more often than not, it's simply a question similar abilities all trying to race their own race, the problem is that they all race the SAME race in terms of pace. I was straight up about what went on in Kona in my RR, I hope we read similar things from the IMFL crowd and not the usual "everyone was drafting...but me!" It is possible to be the beneficiary of a pack while trying to avoid it and race true.

 

Nice post.  I hadn't thought about the hills breaking up the pack.  IMKY had plenty of pack-busting hills and I saw very little drafting there. 

~Mike

2007-11-04 7:37 PM
in reply to: #1037124

Champion
6627
5000100050010025
Rochester Hills, Michigan
Gold member
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

And I'm with Bryan. Drafting is rampant in almost all tris, Kona, FL, and even the local events. Almost drove me away from the sport.  I don't believe it's people WANTING to cheat, I think it's just opportunistic.  

In case anyone was wondering, there was a Zipp study 2 years ago...done in Hawaii and a wind tunnel.....which USAT / NAS took their time to figure out...which showed that drafting was effective, like 10% effective, up to 10 bike lengths back. So now...the moneymaking organization has to choose between allowing some kinda drafting and number of people in an event. Tough choice.

If it were up to me, I'd make drafting a DQ penalty. How else can you gain a 30% advantage in an IM, on the bike? I just don't know how to police it, nor how to handle the cost to police it.

2007-11-04 7:54 PM
in reply to: #1037124

Champion
10154
500050001002525
Alabama
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

Good question about how to police it.  I've been thinking....what if they put a small sensor on each bike that also emitted a small RF signal with say about a 20 ft range.  If the sensor picked up someone else's RF signal continuoualy for more than say xx seconds, it logs an error.

O wait, that wouldn't work as your alarm would also go off if someone was drafting on you.

Never mind.....

~Mike

2007-11-04 9:09 PM
in reply to: #1037124

Champion
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No excuses!
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

I agree with Bryan, plenty of cheaters and not many that admit it. I try to stay within the rules but like at Steelhead there were packs of 50-60 and no way of not drafting when passing people riding 5-10mph slower than you. But also there were times when hills would break it up and 6 dudes come by blatenly in a line cheating plain as day.

I did Redman Iron in Sept. and it was farm roads out in the sticks on the back half. A farm truck came by at about 25mph or so and 1 dude tucked in right behind him for as long as I could see the truck go by. That I think is complete BS. Its one thing to be caught up in it but to say F the rules and everyone else should be immediate DQ



2007-11-05 6:04 AM
in reply to: #1037808

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2007-11-05 6:59 AM
in reply to: #1037124

Master
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Red Sox Nation
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

I hate to even be in here, pathetic Oly Triathlete that I am, but ... I am USAT and I'll be at MiamiMan next weekend.

I've called a lot of drafting penalty's at the races I've done so far, mostly because I try and listen to the athletes, and everyone seems to want a fair race. 

I'd love some input ... call them or let it pass?  I'm kinda a rules girl.

2007-11-05 8:09 AM
in reply to: #1037124

Master
1728
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Pulaski TN
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
I was working the transition area and as the riders came in there were alot in the penalty box so they were getting alot of the top racers. But of course as the AGers came in later in the day less were getting put there.And yes they had great conditions up until later in the day.
2007-11-05 8:26 AM
in reply to: #1037124

Master
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Red Sox Nation
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
Good thread.  I'm gonna call 'em all next weekend. 
2007-11-05 8:31 AM
in reply to: #1038061

Champion
9600
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Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
foolproof - 2007-11-05 8:26 AM

Good thread.  I'm gonna call 'em all next weekend. 


You could also intially try enforcing the rule through real time education. If you see a group of riders, go up to them and make them all seperate to the proper distance as a warning. If you see someone overtake another rider and the passed rider fails to fall back, make them. In a rave like MiamiMan, you are going to have a lot of early packs, so go blow them up over the first 30 miles. If it presist, red card them.


2007-11-05 8:50 AM
in reply to: #1037124

Coach
10487
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

whaaaa? WTC/NAS/USAT races aren't draft legal? and to think I've been training to ride in packs for this weekend!

Drafting sucks but it is what it is. Between big fields, not enough marshals, some RDs not caring, crazy wave orders, flat courses and us not policing ourselves this will continue at most races. 

2007-11-05 9:04 AM
in reply to: #1038071

Master
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Red Sox Nation
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

bryancd - 2007-11-05 9:31 AM  You could also intially try enforcing the rule through real time education. If you see a group of riders, go up to them and make them all seperate to the proper distance as a warning. If you see someone overtake another rider and the passed rider fails to fall back, make them. In a rave like MiamiMan, you are going to have a lot of early packs, so go blow them up over the first 30 miles. If it presist, red card them.

Hmmm ... my training says "Ya'll know the rules!"  Not my job to instruct on the course.  Finger pointing only goes so far.  If you're RACING, are you going to care that I've given you the nod?

The only thing I can offer is, I've been in the mix, so, honest effort on the part of an athlete counts towards consideration. 

I hear you on the 'pass and fall back.'  My training partner lost out on podium on a race b/c of that. 

Red card is interesting.  But, it's hard to figure ... who's hard core and who's the weekend Warrior? 

I hope I get a Harley this weekend! 

And, I'm sorry for the hyjack.  I think I need my own thread on this ... . 

2007-11-05 9:06 AM
in reply to: #1038101

Master
1573
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Red Sox Nation
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL

amiine - 2007-11-05 9:50 AM

Drafting sucks but it is what it is. Between big fields, not enough marshals, some RDs not caring, crazy wave orders, flat courses and us not policing ourselves this will continue at most races. 

I wish there were more people like Jorge.

2007-11-05 9:09 AM
in reply to: #1037124

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Drafting at IMFL
No, you are right, maybe zero tolerance is the only answer and it's good to hear that USAT officials do make an effort to identify a clean rider trying to escape a pack vs. a suspect rider just sitting off soemone's wheel.
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