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2007-11-12 12:41 PM

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Melon Presser
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Subject: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

Thoughts on the following from the nutrition gurus or just your own experience? Thanks! 

While conventional wisdom says 4:1 carbs/protein ideally within 30min. of an ENDURANCE workout, I heard differently at a seminar this weekend regarding HIGH INTENSITY (not endurance) workouts.

Given that after a true high-intensity effort, most people will not be able tolerate anything but simple sugars, here was the suggestion:

Immediately to 15 min. post-workout: simple sugars (energy drink, Gu, blocks, anything sugary)

30-60 min. post-workout: complex carb with high-quality, low-fat protein, some good fat if tolerable (small meal)

2-4 hours post-workout: well-balanced meal.



2007-11-12 1:44 PM
in reply to: #1049373

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Master
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

I can understand why that might be suggested, simple carbs to restore lost glycogen during the intense workout, but for true MUSCLE RECOVERY (i.e. building broken down muscle) you need protein within the first 20-30 minutes.  You SHOULD however, listen to the simple carbs thing, but if you can handle protein, definitely do that too.  Whey protein is VERY easily digested. 

My post-intense-workout meal...40g protein, 20-25g simple carbs.  An hour later, about 20g protein, 10-15g complex carb.  Works for me as I've gone from 13.3% bodyfat to 10.9% in 10 weeks using endurance AND intensity.  I've increased my speed and endurance as I've been able to run a 3:30 marathon and acheive a 14minute PR at the HIM level.



Edited by Q 2007-11-12 1:45 PM
2007-11-13 8:54 PM
in reply to: #1049373

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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating
One thing I don't understand about the protein argument is this: if the highest levels of HGH are secreted when you fall asleep, why would it matter if you have large amounts of protein after training (for "true muscle recovery")? As long as you have the proper amount (1.7-1.8 g/kg) of whole proteins in a day, why would it matter when you had it, since most repair will happen when you sleep?
Please educate me on this matter.
2007-12-17 2:34 PM
in reply to: #1052055

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Master
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

sharp4850 - 2007-11-14 2:54 AM One thing I don't understand about the protein argument is this: if the highest levels of HGH are secreted when you fall asleep, why would it matter if you have large amounts of protein after training (for "true muscle recovery"? As long as you have the proper amount (1.7-1.8 g/kg) of whole proteins in a day, why would it matter when you had it, since most repair will happen when you sleep? Please educate me on this matter.

My understanding is that in the minutes immediately after exercise your body is more efficient at absorbing stuff (proteins/carbs) and delivering it to the muscles than times of the day when you have not just exercised.

2007-12-17 2:42 PM
in reply to: #1106461

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating
tridantri - 2007-12-17 2:34 PM

sharp4850 - 2007-11-14 2:54 AM One thing I don't understand about the protein argument is this: if the highest levels of HGH are secreted when you fall asleep, why would it matter if you have large amounts of protein after training (for "true muscle recovery"? As long as you have the proper amount (1.7-1.8 g/kg) of whole proteins in a day, why would it matter when you had it, since most repair will happen when you sleep? Please educate me on this matter.

My understanding is that in the minutes immediately after exercise your body is more efficient at absorbing stuff (proteins/carbs) and delivering it to the muscles than times of the day when you have not just exercised.

True. Marni Rakes has a good article and video on post-workout eating here on BT.

I'm still wondering about my original question though ... I probably need to dig deeper into the sci journals to find an answer on this one. I am aware of the basics and evidence of post-workout recovery eating; I just hadn't heard of this one, with its very specific application. My understanding is that it came out of Herman Falsetti's lab in Orange County, CA.

2007-12-17 3:13 PM
in reply to: #1049373

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Champion
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

This seems to be consistent with normal post-workout recovery but modified slightly to account for the "hurl" factor you can commonly feel after a HIIT.

After a long run, I no problem slamming a Gatorade / Protein Powder shake (poor man's smoothie).  But after running intervals to the point of exhaustion - no way could I fathom getting (and keeping) this down.

And it seems that the simple sugars is all about immediate glycogen to stablize your system - so that you don't feel light headed right away and sluggish later.

Just a guess though because this Michelin Man hasn't done his doctor-recommended HIIT workouts in far too long...



2007-12-17 3:24 PM
in reply to: #1049373

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Master
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating
It never ceases to amaze me all these different variations on how someone should eat to optimize recovery.  What it boils down to is essentially eating a healthy and varied diet, drinking enough water, and rest.  I am not going to sweat the details.
2007-12-17 11:34 PM
in reply to: #1049373

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Master
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating
I usually just finish up whatever I had in my bottle(s) for the run or ride. That's mostly carbs for short, high-intensity workouts. Then, while I stretch or undress or pet the dog or whatever I'll have a protein recovery drink, then the balanced meal within the next 1-2 hours. That has worked really well for me all year.

I agree, the protein stuff right afterwards would make me gag too. I thought most of the research said that the protein recovery drink/food needs to happen within the first 30 minutes after stopping to make a difference...not within 30 seconds.

A lot of the research averages the results. I think trying things out and coming to a practical and effective balance for you is crucial. For me, a smoothie with all natural real food would be best but it's totally impractical because I have to drive to my rides. So, the recovery drinks are the next best thing. Same with the carbs/protein: If it makes you hurl it's not very practical, so adjust accordingly.

And: a lot of the research in sports is still done on man only. I wonder what the formula for women would be? Would it change? I know Clif makes the Luna bars for women (which I don't like at all, way too sweet) but few sports drinks and recovery mixes are geared towards women. None of the major ones are.


2007-12-18 7:24 AM
in reply to: #1107164

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Champion
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

I'm not sure what this means exactly.  Sports/recovery drinks aren't targetted toward one gender of the other.  In fact, I can't think of how they could be.  There's no physiologic difference between the two that would make that an issue.

I didn't answer on this thread originally because people tend to believe whatever they want regardless of what's posted.  Just take in some protein and carbs pretty soon after your workout.

SauseEnte - 2007-12-17 11:34 PM And: a lot of the research in sports is still done on man only. I wonder what the formula for women would be? Would it change? I know Clif makes the Luna bars for women (which I don't like at all, way too sweet) but few sports drinks and recovery mixes are geared towards women. None of the major ones are.

2007-12-18 12:39 PM
in reply to: #1107468

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Coach
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating
DerekL - 2007-12-18 7:24 AM

I'm not sure what this means exactly.  Sports/recovery drinks aren't targetted toward one gender of the other.  In fact, I can't think of how they could be.  There's no physiologic difference between the two that would make that an issue.

I didn't answer on this thread originally because people tend to believe whatever they want regardless of what's posted.  Just take in some protein and carbs pretty soon after your workout.

SauseEnte - 2007-12-17 11:34 PM And: a lot of the research in sports is still done on man only. I wonder what the formula for women would be? Would it change? I know Clif makes the Luna bars for women (which I don't like at all, way too sweet) but few sports drinks and recovery mixes are geared towards women. None of the major ones are.

I have nothing to add other than this is a funny thread and I think I am going to still the bolded part as my new signature cuz is true!
2007-12-18 2:35 PM
in reply to: #1049373

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Master
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating
Well, what does this have to do with "believing?" Show me the research that says women's bodies do NOT have different nutritional needs than men's. No, I don't have any links handy to studies that show the difference, I'm not a scientist. But until the difference is either proven or unproven I'd rather assume there is one. For one, women need more folic acid and calcium, especially as we get older--both are depleted when exercising. So it would make sense to design a study that investigates if it makes sense to replenish those with the help of recovery drinks or if it can wait for later in the day when we have time to eat real food.

To assume that we're all the same just because there's no evidence to the contrary seems a bit short-sighted or even dangerous. Consider heart disease. Until the 1990s most recommendations for a healthy heart, research on heart attack recovery, etc. were based on men's bodies. Then it was discovered that not only is heart disease the number one killer for women but often goes undiagnosed because the risk factors and red flags are different. So, proportionately, a lot more women over 65 have died of heart disease than men. As far as I know (from my casual readings of science articles in the NYT) there is still no consensus about what exactly it is that is different in a woman's response to heart disease (apart from the usual factors that lead to it). What scientists seem to agree on though is that there is a difference and that more research is needed.





2007-12-18 3:26 PM
in reply to: #1049373

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

To me, just experientially, there is a big difference in recovery (and recovery eating) between even, say, doing a 20-mile training run, or doing 1-2 hrs of high intensity intervals. As for eating, no, I really can't put anything but sugar in my stomach for at least a half-hour after the intensity. But the next day or two I feel like I'm starving. The prescription I mentioned works for me, and I was just curious whether anyone else had heard of or tried this variation.  

What originally interested me about this variation on the "4:1 carb/prot w/in 30 min." specifically for high-intensity work was that it encouraged (as opposed to simply allowingthe protein part to be pushed to 30-60 min. While in part this helps preclude puking, where's the evidence that it is preferable (even if the protein can be tolerated) to delay the initial protein intake after HI?

Furthermore--I didn't include this in the original post because it just complicated things, but at this point ...

It was stated that to maximize weight loss, again, specifically after high intensity training (plenty was said about other types of training and eating), the third food intake (the normal-sized, balanced meal) should be made smaller than usual.

I was fascinated by all of this because the original source was from Falsetti's 4 Zone Training. You figure the MD and his group that trained/consulted U.S. Postal, Kona, etc. ad infinitum might know a thing or two about this stuff, AND that (for all I know) it, and its bases, might even be common knowledge among experienced athletes.

2007-12-18 3:44 PM
in reply to: #1108150

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

SauseEnte - 2007-12-18 2:35 PM To assume that we're all the same just because there's no evidence to the contrary seems a bit short-sighted or even dangerous.

It's a logical fallacy. It's true that there are a huge amount of data regarding recovery, and hey, it seems there are some basic guidelines by which most athletes recover well, and similarly. But there are very few studies regarding recovery differences in sex (women make notoriously poor subjects for many of the very same reasons they ought to be further investigated!).

What scientists seem to agree on though, is that there is a difference and that more research is needed.

On the cardiovascular disease issue, of course. On the recovery issue? Who knows? Definitely more research is needed!

2007-12-19 6:32 AM
in reply to: #1108150

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Champion
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

So it's ok to assume that something exists without evidence (actually contrary to evidence), but it's not ok to assume that something doesn't exist?

I would think that that's a far more "dangerous" approach to things than the contrary.

The evidence I'm referring to is basic physiology that's been well documented and understood for quite some time.  Your heart disease example that you read from the newspaper isn't remotely the same thing.  You state that there's "agreement by scientists" when no such thing exists.  The basic mechanism of heart disease is identical in men and women.

Now, show me a study that says that you DON'T have to eat 48 carrots, a gallon of ice cream, and a shoe everyday because you're a woman.

SauseEnte - 2007-12-18 2:35 PM Well, what does this have to do with "believing?" Show me the research that says women's bodies do NOT have different nutritional needs than men's.

2007-12-19 9:09 AM
in reply to: #1049373

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Master
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

It's pretty simplistic to say that women and men are the same physiologically.  If this is true Derek, then why does the RDA differ on nutritional recommendations for both sexes?Sause is correct to assume that there may be benefits to formulating products that meet the requirements of nutritional differences.

Personally, I think nutrition is highly individual as no two people are going to have identical nutritional needs.  That is why I mentioned previously that the focus should be on a healthy and balanced diet, getting enough fluids, and rest.



Edited by pinktrigal 2007-12-19 9:10 AM
2007-12-19 11:56 AM
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

I honestly have no idea how to respond to things like this without sounding like an arse, so here goes.  My formal education is on the human body with the physiology of it being at the root of everything.  I'm well aware of basic physiology, and what you're saying is simply wrong.  If you can back up your assertions with anything substantial, please do so.  The example given is a complete non sequitur.

I'm sure I'm wasting my time here, but I'm apparently a glutton for punishment.

pinktrigal - 2007-12-19 9:09 AM

It's pretty simplistic to say that women and men are the same physiologically.  If this is true Derek, then why does the RDA differ on nutritional recommendations for both sexes?Sause is correct to assume that there may be benefits to formulating products that meet the requirements of nutritional differences.

Personally, I think nutrition is highly individual as no two people are going to have identical nutritional needs.  That is why I mentioned previously that the focus should be on a healthy and balanced diet, getting enough fluids, and rest.



2007-12-19 1:22 PM
in reply to: #1109788

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Master
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating
DerekL - 2007-12-19 12:56 PM

I honestly have no idea how to respond to things like this without sounding like an arse, so here goes.  My formal education is on the human body with the physiology of it being at the root of everything.  I'm well aware of basic physiology, and what you're saying is simply wrong.  If you can back up your assertions with anything substantial, please do so.  The example given is a complete non sequitur.

I'm sure I'm wasting my time here, but I'm apparently a glutton for punishment.

pinktrigal - 2007-12-19 9:09 AM

It's pretty simplistic to say that women and men are the same physiologically.  If this is true Derek, then why does the RDA differ on nutritional recommendations for both sexes?Sause is correct to assume that there may be benefits to formulating products that meet the requirements of nutritional differences.

Personally, I think nutrition is highly individual as no two people are going to have identical nutritional needs.  That is why I mentioned previously that the focus should be on a healthy and balanced diet, getting enough fluids, and rest.

I guess not only am I wrong, but the RDAs are wrong.  Hmmmmmmm, as usual your vast knowledge seems to evade me.  I guess that's why we have nutritionists



Edited by pinktrigal 2007-12-19 1:25 PM
2007-12-19 4:47 PM
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating

I'm not sure what's worse.  Putting words in my mouth that I didn't say or imply or just missing the point completely.

It's not about vast knowledge.  It's about basic knowledge.  Again, if you have something to contribute to back up your claims, feel free to post it.

pinktrigal - 2007-12-19 1:22 PM I guess not only am I wrong, but the RDAs are wrong.  Hmmmmmmm, as usual your vast knowledge seems to evade me.  I guess that's why we have nutritionists

2007-12-19 6:08 PM
in reply to: #1110535

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Master
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Subject: RE: High-Intensity Workout Recovery Eating
DerekL - 2007-12-19 5:47 PM

I'm not sure what's worse.  Putting words in my mouth that I didn't say or imply or just missing the point completely.

It's not about vast knowledge.  It's about basic knowledge.  Again, if you have something to contribute to back up your claims, feel free to post it.

pinktrigal - 2007-12-19 1:22 PM I guess not only am I wrong, but the RDAs are wrong.  Hmmmmmmm, as usual your vast knowledge seems to evade me.  I guess that's why we have nutritionists

I am definitely going to call you out on your misleading statements.  If you want to believe that the RDAs (or DRIs as they are now called) are incorrect, you should be providing us with some evidence. Obviously the Institute of Medicine does support the idea of specific male and female nutritional requirements, and does show the differences in these tables:

http://www.iom.edu/Object.File/Master/21/372/0.pdf

The Dietary Reference Intake is a system of nutrition recommendations from the Institute of Medicine of the USA National Academy (IOM). The DRI system is used by both the United States and Canada. It is intended for the general public and health professionals. Applications include:

  • Food labels in the United States and Canada
  • Composition of diets for schools, prisons, hospitals or nursing homes
  • Industries developing new food stuffs
  • Healthcare policy makers and public health officials

In 1997, at the suggestion of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy, the RDA became one part of a broader, more detailed set of dietary guidelines, called the Dietary Reference Intake.

 

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