IM race pace

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2008-01-27 6:58 PM

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Subject: IM race pace
This may have been covered before so if it has please send me in the right direction. I understand zone 2 is the pace generally used for IM distance. However when I see the pros running their is little doubt in my mind they are in zone 3. Does anyone have an idea how they mix race pace? Does the bike portion mix look like: one hour Z2 and 30 minutes Z3?

2008-01-27 7:20 PM
in reply to: #1178732

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Subject: RE: IM race pace

race pace is a function of how fit you are. fitter = faster. Pros can allow to go faster than AGers because they are fitter and the time they spend racing at a higher intensity in less in duration than the time an AGer spend racing at a lower intensity. If we make you and a pro run for 1 hr both at Z1 and quantify the total strain placed on your bodies, the pro will cover more distance than you but the total strain between both will be pretty similar...

anyway pros don't really mix race pace, although they might race a certain leg harder or not based on their strenghts (tactics) or how the race is developing but in general they've trained ther bodies to go as fast as possible for 140.6 miles.

2008-01-28 3:49 AM
in reply to: #1178732

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Subject: RE: IM race pace
Hi Tehtoo,

This is actually a good question. When you say "Pros" i will assume you are talking about the Top3 guys in a major IM race, apart from Ironman Hawaii, there are not many PROS who can "race" an Ironman, I went 8h50´ and have some Top10s, but I never raced anyone, all I did was do my own thing, just like an age grouper. Of course I could afford myself a few moments at higher intensity, swim start is always a 100% effort, as is the early parts of the ride.

There is basically 2 strategies the TOP pros can use to win a race (I will use Normann and McCormack in Hawaii for example):

#1: The Runner - McCormack:
-Strong Swim to make the first group out of the water.
-If you are 2-3´ down, TIME TRIAL! for the first 40k to make that group
-Sit legally in the "pack", saves mental and physical energy, drink and eat, wait for the run
-Stick to this pack no matter what
-Run like a "motherfu**** and hope that the bikers will bonk

#2: THe biker - Normann
-Do the best you can in the water
-Ride like the race is over in T2
-If you can do a decent, sub3h run, you will place well, if you bonk, you might not even finish

So, ou can see that swimming is VERY IMPORTANT in terms of strategy in an Ironman, pros are always going hard in the water.

Hope that helps a bit,

Vinnie


2008-01-28 8:08 AM
in reply to: #1179186

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Subject: RE: IM race pace
vinnieds - 2008-01-28 3:49 AM


So, ou can see that swimming is VERY IMPORTANT in terms of strategy in an Ironman, pros are always going hard in the water.




Amen! I think everyone kicks the swim under the rug as the red headed step child of the sport! The bottom line is that to get behind will require either a surge which will take it's toll at some point later on or trusting that your competition is weaker than you in the bike and or run!
2008-01-28 12:08 PM
in reply to: #1179186

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Subject: RE: IM race pace
vinnieds - 2008-01-28 3:49 AM

Hi Tehtoo,

This is actually a good question. When you say "Pros" i will assume you are talking about the Top3 guys in a major IM race, apart from Ironman Hawaii, there are not many PROS who can "race" an Ironman, I went 8h50´ and have some Top10s, but I never raced anyone, all I did was do my own thing, just like an age grouper. Of course I could afford myself a few moments at higher intensity, swim start is always a 100% effort, as is the early parts of the ride.

There is basically 2 strategies the TOP pros can use to win a race (I will use Normann and McCormack in Hawaii for example):

#1: The Runner - McCormack:
-Strong Swim to make the first group out of the water.
-If you are 2-3´ down, TIME TRIAL! for the first 40k to make that group
-Sit legally in the "pack", saves mental and physical energy, drink and eat, wait for the run
-Stick to this pack no matter what
-Run like a "motherfu**** and hope that the bikers will bonk

#2: THe biker - Normann
-Do the best you can in the water
-Ride like the race is over in T2
-If you can do a decent, sub3h run, you will place well, if you bonk, you might not even finish

So, ou can see that swimming is VERY IMPORTANT in terms of strategy in an Ironman, pros are always going hard in the water.

Hope that helps a bit,

Vinnie




great post
2008-01-28 2:28 PM
in reply to: #1178732

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Subject: RE: IM race pace
Whatever you determine that pace to be, train your a@# off at it!

2008-01-28 2:40 PM
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Subject: RE: IM race pace

bryancd - 2008-01-28 3:28 PM Whatever you determine that pace to be, train your a@# off at it!

just out of curiousity Bryan, ( I know my coach will fill me in over time but just for sh$#s and giggles) what would you say in my case where I am nowhere near the fitness level I hope to be at and I am still dropping weight. I know my z2 pace now is not near what I hope my z2 pace will be come June. And also my FTP on the bike is getting progressively better so how would you determine what pace to train at?

2008-01-28 2:43 PM
in reply to: #1180214

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Subject: RE: IM race pace
Shermbelle - 2008-01-28 2:40 PM

bryancd - 2008-01-28 3:28 PM Whatever you determine that pace to be, train your a@# off at it!

just out of curiousity Bryan, ( I know my coach will fill me in over time but just for sh$#s and giggles) what would you say in my case where I am nowhere near the fitness level I hope to be at and I am still dropping weight. I know my z2 pace now is not near what I hope my z2 pace will be come June. And also my FTP on the bike is getting progressively better so how would you determine what pace to train at?

Train based on current fitness.  Not on 'hoped for' fitness.

But I'm sure your coach will let you know. 

2008-01-28 2:46 PM
in reply to: #1179306

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Subject: RE: IM race pace

katimomma - 2008-01-28 6:08 AM
vinnieds - 2008-01-28 3:49 AM So, ou can see that swimming is VERY IMPORTANT in terms of strategy in an Ironman, pros are always going hard in the water.
Amen! I think everyone kicks the swim under the rug as the red headed step child of the sport! The bottom line is that to get behind will require either a surge which will take it's toll at some point later on or trusting that your competition is weaker than you in the bike and or run!

Having never done an IM (IMAZ 4/08), maybe talking out of my a$$, but that won't stop me   Yes, swim is important for the pros.  For AGers? unless you're trying to get a slot (and even then), I'd say much less important.  Coach Kevin Purcell did a 4 x 1000 HR and pace analysis on his site.  Won't bore with the details but gist was that by going "hard" on the swim, as opposed to "easy", he gained all of 5 minutes at the cost of 10-15 increased BPM (numbers aren't exact, but were as dramatic, IMHO).   What's the saying, you can't win it on the swim, but you sure can lose it.

I have no idea what pace to go, but for the first one I am going easier than I think I should on the swim, and easier than I think I should on the bike.   I have no misconceptions that the run will be hard no matter what pace I go

2008-01-28 3:00 PM
in reply to: #1178732

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Subject: RE: IM race pace
Swim fitness (training) will help you be less fatigued out of the water which can make a huge difference, but you are right unless you are looking for a KQ or a pro to go all out on the swim is not nearly as important as pacing yourself for the day. Thanks for helping me clarify what I was trying to say.
2008-01-28 3:11 PM
in reply to: #1180214

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Subject: RE: IM race pace
Shermbelle - 2008-01-28 2:40 PM

bryancd - 2008-01-28 3:28 PM Whatever you determine that pace to be, train your a@# off at it!

just out of curiousity Bryan, ( I know my coach will fill me in over time but just for sh$#s and giggles) what would you say in my case where I am nowhere near the fitness level I hope to be at and I am still dropping weight. I know my z2 pace now is not near what I hope my z2 pace will be come June. And also my FTP on the bike is getting progressively better so how would you determine what pace to train at?

As JK said, you train at the pace/power that your current fitness allows you to train. If your cycling FTP is 200 watts then you set your training based off that and same if it is 300 watts. What you want to achieve is to progressively load your training to bump that power (or pace for the run) as high as possible, but you do so in cycles so you can work one or two things at the time without building too much fatigue. To adjust your training you do testing every 6-8 weeks (btw, remember you have a power test coming up )

Once you bring your FTP is as high as you can get it within your time available for training during the general phase, then you focus on specific IM training, and that is developing the endurance to be able to race as close to your FTP as possible (although close is a relative term). 8-6 weeks out of your IM is the time you can start getting a better idea of what your fitness level will be on race day and how fast you will be able to race it at. Of course your fitness should improve some in those last 8-6 weeks but you’ll have a good idea of your race pace.



Edited by amiine 2008-01-28 3:29 PM

2008-01-28 6:11 PM
in reply to: #1180221

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Subject: RE: IM race pace
JohnnyKay - 2008-01-28 2:43 PM

Shermbelle - 2008-01-28 2:40 PM

bryancd - 2008-01-28 3:28 PM Whatever you determine that pace to be, train your a@# off at it!

just out of curiousity Bryan, ( I know my coach will fill me in over time but just for sh$#s and giggles) what would you say in my case where I am nowhere near the fitness level I hope to be at and I am still dropping weight. I know my z2 pace now is not near what I hope my z2 pace will be come June. And also my FTP on the bike is getting progressively better so how would you determine what pace to train at?

Train based on current fitness.  Not on 'hoped for' fitness.

But I'm sure your coach will let you know. 



Exactly right.

It took a number of months of training and getting in a few Olympic races for my coach to identify a training HR zone which he felt confident that I could hold for say 10 hours. Once identified, I worked it almost exclusively for MANY months leading into IMAZ. It had nothing to do with pace, pace improved over time accordingly.
2008-01-28 8:20 PM
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Subject: RE: IM race pace
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2008-01-28 11:16 PM
in reply to: #1178732

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Subject: RE: IM race pace
I knew I would get great responses from this group! Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. It just hammers home a very good point... train progressively (preferably with the right coach), have patience, build a rock solid foundation of cardiovascular fitness, and an athlete can perform to their potential if they know how to apply the correct amount of stress at the right time. Thanks again!
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