Long run for 5:00 IM mary?? (Page 2)

The more I listen, the more I hear about people having not as long runs in their IM training.  I'm NOT talking about reducing your run volume, just that they do not prescribe to the marathon training like long run build.  Again, their emphasis on first being able to even run more than the first half of the IM marathon, which means you need to come out of the water and off the bike as fresh as possible.  You cannot do that if you do not have the volume and pace on the bike.

You can still put in a relatively easy to reach 50+ mile week without having to run more than 2 hours on 5 or 6 days a week.

But Bryan, we have to look at this from a relative MOP agers perspective, not an elites ........ how many AGers do you actually see "running" 16 miles into the marathon???  Not many ...... So the focus should be on getting the athlete to the point where they even have the opportunity to run in the first place.

After this last season and reading up on things more I understand where Aaron's coach is coming from and can dig it.  My concern for his run is not that he isn't getting enough running, but that to get to the marathon time he needs in his IM to KQ that he basically has to run a marathon PR ...... very tough to do!  If it were me, I'd say in his case maybe he should be focusing on some longer/faster stuff so that he has the ability to run a stand alone 3:10-ish.  He ran a really smart race and stayed right in his game plan at KY and had a great result because of that.  But knocking off a 1/2 hour from his run split is going to be tough, however that is what he needs to do to get his KQ.  His bike is strong and his swim gets the job done well.

That's why he's got the coach though, he knows what he's doing (we would expect)!

My other thought is how far other people [not myself] can run in that 2hr time frame. for my training runs 2 hrs is right about 11 miles. which makes me a bit nervous.  The big thing I'm seeing in this thread is the word "form" and the attention to being able to hold your form while running. I really don't know if I have good form or not, since I've always just gone out and ran.  There is a run clinic next month that I'll now be signing up for where they video you and give you feedback on this whole form thing.

 It's amazing to me that the more I learn the more I see why people speak so highly of having a good coach.

The key is to still run as much as possible.  If you're running 3x/week with a 90-120min long run, 60min med-run and 30-45min brick, you probably won't have a great running base to fall back on when things get tough in the IM.  Now add one or two more 30-45min runs to your week (bricks or not) and things change substantially.  That's another 60-90min of running, week-in and week-out during your training.  It will make a big difference and help you to hold your form longer and longer as you fatigue.

You can always do a few runs in the 120-180min range at some point in your plan if it helps your confidence and doesn't disrupt the rest of your training.

In training for my HIM, on my highest run weeks my coach had me running around 30 miles per week over 4 runs. A 6 mile med run with tempo portion, a 7-8 mile workout at the track, a 12-13 mile long run, and a 4 mile brick (actually a double brick- ride 20 run 2, ride 20 run 2)

I'm curious to talk to her about the IM run training. I'm sure I'll have some 40 mile weeks in there.

I'm not calling into question your pace ability at all Aaron.  I'm just concerned about your ability to hold that pace over time.  I know your stand alone time is not accurate, espcially with the big strides you've made over the last year and a half.

But the rule of thumb is that you will basically add about 30 minutes to your stand alone time to give a sense of what you can do with your best IM marathon.  This stands up pretty true in most instances.  What that means is that to run a 3:30 one would have to be in 3:00 - 3:10 shape.  and that's pretty hard to do.  I'm running close to 60+ a week right now and with luck will be able to hit a sub-3 stand alone.  And my 5k, 10k, and 1/2 marathon PRs are pretty significantly faster than yours.

I have no doubt that you could run a 3:30 marathon, but I would still question whether you can do that after a good swim and solid bike that you can put up.  If you look at the people on the forum that have put up 3:30 or better splits at an IM, you are looking at pretty rarified company that are all sub-3 stand alone guys! (Bryan, Joel, etc.)

Sorry for the hijack guys .......

I seriously want to see you kick azz and take names Aaron!  I see the value of the shorter runs now that your coach prescribes and the emphasis on the bike that you put in for KY.  But to get the sort of run you want (and really need to get your KQ) you should be holding low 7's in pretty much all your run of the mill training runs - including your 90+ minute ones.

So in many ways I agree with your coaches approach now, but I also (from a runners perspective) think that you might need to have a little more run focused training to hit your goal.

My longest training run last year was 2 hours, and that was 11 weeks out from IM race day. Between then and race day I did 2 runs of 1:30 and one 1:42 at a HIM 7 weeks out. I was able to run 3:56 at IMWI.

That's not the plan I'd prescribe, and it wasn't even according to my plan. But that's the way last year went.

There should be no reason you HAVE to go longer than 2:45 in training to manage a 5 hr IM run. An IM run is all about continuing to run, even if running pretty slowly, rather than mile after mile of walking. And that, I think, has more to do with bike fitness and bike pacing than it has to do with run training.

edit:  Oh, and all that said, THIS year will be a HUGE contrast from last for me.  This year I'm venturing into ultrarunning.  I'll be doing a 50K in April, and 50 mile in May and a 100K in June.  I'm actually planning to build up to a max of a 6 hour training run prior to my 100K.  Then I'll switch back into triathlon mode, with a HIM in July and IMWI in September.  And yet, with all of that running, I don't expect my IM run to improve over past run PRs.  In fact it may suffer due to some sacrifices in the volume of my bike training. 

ChrisM - 2008-02-05 2:57 PM hijack all you guys want now.  Went down this morning on the bike ended up with an AC Separation with ligament tears.  Looks like I might not have to worry about that IM run after all.....

Ugh!  I hope it heals up fast enough for you to toe the start line.  But remember there will always be other opportunities to attack that IM run.  Heal up!

Chris,

All the best with your recovery - hope you are able to toe the line!

Shane

That sucks.

Heal up well and take it easy so you can see what you can salvage out of it.  Good mojo vibes coming your way to get better!!!

I'm sorry for your accident and hope you heal up quickly.... 

I had similar results from my crash AC seperation last June plus a concussion. I was riding next week on a trainer and about 2 weeks out on the road very cautiously, could run about 2.5-3 weeks later and swam about 4-5 weeks later and was able to do my HIM just short of 4 months post crash..did an Oly 2.5 months after. I actually did a sprint relay with my daughter about 19 days after I crashed..I only biked.

Bummer Chris~ 

Sorry to hear about your crash Chris.  How'd it happen?  Are you out of your race for sure?  10 weeks is long time....maybe you can heal up?

~Mike

thanks everyone, after an ortho visit, some reaserch on the web, hearing others' stories of AC seps and broken this and that and still making it to the starting line, I am going to try to make it to IMAZ.  I can alrteady see an improvement in my range of motion, I actually brushed my teeth with my right hand today, could barely lift it yesterday.

I'll be out of the pool at least 3 weeks, biking I will be on a trainer (which I am off to buy today) and running as soon as I can manage the pain.  I guess the good news is that I have done all the damage I can do (complete grade III AC separation), cannot do any more harm.  Ortho knows of IM, plan is to do PT focusing on swimming and being in aero for extended time periods.  Surgery not being considered by me.

I know I can make the 2:20 cutoff even with 4 weeks out of the pool.  Trainer will hopefully maintain bike fitness during that time period.  And I can walk the run if I have to.

If you want to see what it looks like, take a look at yesterday's blog

As for how it happened, early am ride, I have a light but it isn't bright enough.  there's a section of the bike path that goes down into an unlit section, is backit by some buildings, and curves.  It's hard to negotiate anyway, but add lots of extra sand on the path, and it's impossible to tell when sand ends and concret e begins.  Figures, it was an easy 60 minute ride, and I was thinking "this is about our turn around point" right before it happened.

At any rate, should be an interesting 2 months

Just as a quick update so as not to end my own hijack on a bummer note.  I was on the trainer crash plus 4 days, and I ran yesterday and today, crash plus 7 days.  I consider myself lucky as I am mostly pain free.  Pool is still up in the air, although I've been in it, working on kicking and swimming one armed on my weak side, might as well use this as an opportunity to balance out my stroke

So I've lost a little bit of fitness, but not much.  Certainly much better than I expected a week ago.