Preparing the marathon of an IM

Yes I understand this and I am always doing bricks after the long weekly ride. I will put 2 long rides soon but I don't want to fall into the trap of running and walking in the second part of the marathon as for many IM partecipants.

And since it will be my first IM, I plan to ride the 180km in zone 1 or max zone 2: I will concentrate (again) on being fast on the rinning leg.

Just to repeat what was said above (because it's important to understand), most people are not walking the 2nd half of the marathon due to inadequate run training.  It's poor pacing up to that point in the day (swim + bike + 1st half of run). 

You're a strong runner.  Focus on your swimming and biking to build your endurance there.  Then swim & ride easy and you'll have a good run.  It's really that simple.

Ok thanks for the suggestion but the main point was: should I prepare it like a standalone (slower) marathon? Using same methodology?

I am training using a standalone planning for swimming+cycling and I have a coach since several years for running only. That's why I ask. 

As long as you don't neglect swimming and biking, and given that you seem to have a strong running background, I see no problem with training in a similar manner as you would for a marathon.  I would not do any training runs slower than what you would normally do. Yes, your IM marathon pace will be slower than a stand alone, but I still think you can do your run training at your usual intensities and paces.  Conventional wisdom says you shouldn't do runs longer than 2 1/2 hours during IM training, which makes some sense, but if your training pace allows you to do 20 miles in that timeframe then I say go for it.  I probably would not do 22-24 mile runs as suggested by some advanced marathon plans.

Using myself as an example - I am doing ironman in July and have already done several 20 mile runs this year. My long run (15-20 mile) pace is somewhere around 7:15 - 7:30/mile currently, even though my goal for the IM marathon is 3:30 (8 minutes/mile). Running is my strongest sport, and I am shooting for a 3 hour standalone marathon this fall, so my training is not just focused on IM but on other goals after IM.

My advice is no.  You are not training for a marathon.  You're training for an IM.  Unless you have gobs of time to train, it will be hard to fit in as much running into your training as you would for a stand-alone.

I don't have any idea how you're training now or how you plan to train, so hard to offer much specific.  But given that running is your strength, you will get much more benefit from more/harder riding and less running than trying to fit your swimming & biking into a marathon plan.

This is the example I was searching for. Thanks for your post.

Actually I did in my last 3 years 7 marathons and 5 below 3hrs but then I realized that marathon pace is really slow since I like fast pace, emotions like in 10k or 5k races. So no more marathons since 2 years but many 10k and Half marathons: I basically race every week ends on such distances and I do a 30km training once per month, when I do not race to keep good aerobic conditions.

Looking at your experience and suggestion, I am more convinced to go for the normal marathon scheduling without caring too much on the pace on the though training sessions (like long IT or long marathon pace trainings). 

Before starting IM preparation, I was running 7 (or more) times a week. Now I reduced to 6 and I do 3 swimming sessions (one long) and 4 bike sessions (one long outdoor and 3 indoor with intervals). I am ok right now but I am very fit for Half marathons races. If i have to run a marathon today at a good pace, I would loose in the last 7km for sure but I can do it easily in 3hrs. If I have to prepare it seriously I would for a lower target but I think I will prepare a plan for something like 3h30' just to be sure... 

Emphatic NO!!

It is a waste of your training time and when you start to be really fatigued as the training wears on you will be putting a much larger risk of burnout and injury.

You should basically just go into a sort of maintenance mode.  There is really no need to do anything over 2 hours or so for a "long run" session during your IM build up.  For someone with less running experience and speed, maybe, but not for an experienced runner.

The IM marathon is absolutely NOTHING like a stand alone one.  They should not be trained for the same way.

To reiterate what JK said, it is all about the swim and bike training and pacing on race day.  3 weeks before IMFL I ran a relatively untrained 3:15 hilly marathon.  On race day I pushed the bike too hard and WALKED to a 5:45 IM marathon.  All the run fitness in the world didn't mean sh-t on race day for me because I over did the earlier parts of th race.

Since I've seen you somewhere else I have a good idea which plan you're following

I could see for a runner like you that you would think the plan is light. It seems to me if you can handle the load of the plan on the swim and bike and your variation of running I'd say you are well on your way to a successful IM marathon.

The testamonials there have shown the plan to be succesful as is. Adding in some of your extra runs I'm sure will be beneficial but I don't think training as if for a stand alone is wise.

I see your tag line but do you rest at all? That seems like some load.

Rest is something I do once a month maybe. But this is something I am aware of or, better, used to. When I was only running for racing and racing, I was doing 3 or 4 times a week a double running session and I remember 2005 resting only 4 days in the whole year. I was training with other people so the "crazy" guy was not alone. As long as you keep your weight in a good range, you can do it otherwise 1 or 2 kg more and you got injured immediately.

Anyway, since I moved to Tri, resting has a different concept (from my understanding): here is needed more as a mental rest for letting you jumping from one sport to another. It is not a matter of being tired if you train in a smart way. I am far away to train for Tri in a smart way but I am working for that. And again yes, I do sometimes rest, not once a week (as all the books and websites suggest) but per month. 

Ok another good example. If I ask you what time did you expect that day if you had push much lighter on the bike? 3:30? 3:45? Because if you say you were on 3:15 standalone it means that you were well prepared as I would like to be just around the IM period. 

Hey good for you if it works. Certainly seems that you're at a level that you can handle it. Rest is an interesting, individual topic. I'm on old MOP'er and one of things that drew me to Mike's plan was his "old school" philosophy. Even with one day a week of rest my volume seems to be on the higher end of other plans. To each his own. Good luck the rest of the way.  

I think part of our differing opinions may be based in what is meant by "usual marathon training." If you're talking about doing 100 mile weeks, with a lot of 2-a-day workouts, then no, you would not want to do that. If you're talking about key sessions focused on the marathon distance - interval sessions of 4-6 miles, tempo runs of 8-12, long runs of 12-20, then I don't see why you would want to abandon that. We all know that you need to pace the bike well to run to your full potential, but isn't your full potential determined by your run training leading up to the race?  Ironman training is a lot about balancing the load, but if a well trained, experienced runner is capable of popping out two to two 1/2 hour training runs with relative ease and good recovery, why should they not do it? 

Great reference, thanks!

I think that, beside all this thread, it should be clear that if you have a BMI higher than XX, stay away of running volume higher than 70km/week. I don't want to say how much is XX because otherwise we will open another thread

Basically this guy suggest what I am thinking...very good then. 

Interesting. My plan caps at 2 hours, usually followed by an hour ride to keep aerobic w/o being quite so punishing on the body.

Looks like the longest day is what he likes to call a sandwhich: Run 1:45, Bike :45, Run 1:00.

That looks like plenty long to me Oh and I aint so fast anyway!