General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Long rides / runs on consecutive days? Rss Feed  
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2008-06-16 2:47 PM
in reply to: #1468873

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

During my Florida build up last year I started by attempting to do a long ride, long run weekend because of time constraints.  But more often than not I was bagging my long run because I was too wiped from the rest of the week.  So I moved my long run to Tuesday and either made Sunday a full on rest day or a shorter run.

Worked wonders for me and I was not over-cooked anymore.

As has been mentioned numerous times, with 2 or 3 days of recovery in between your key quality workouts you gain more from them over the long run.  You don't really need to show your level of HTFUpness and suffer through the "brutal weekends" that were a thing of the past .... UNLESS you are truly time constrained.

Everyone used to run 200 mile weeks because that was the way to win marathons .......... until a couple people said, "WTF??" and researched what the body does and then guess what ........ they got faster from having quality sessions with proper recovery on 125 - 150 mile weeks.

I do tend to put a little bit of credence in what the top coaches have done and researched even if I don't necessarily follow one myself.



2008-06-16 5:19 PM
in reply to: #1469676

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
Well, I'm nowhere near 200 mile run weeks or 125-150 so I do not believe this would be an issue with me. I tend to do a ten mile run during the week and a 13-18 mile run on the weekend. In addition I continue to be able to both bike and run over the weekend without bagging the next days activity so that does not appear to be an issue. I'm pretty sure I'm not overcooked. I do not consider these 15-18 mile runs and 65-80 mile rides brutal when they occur in the same weekend - in fact they are nice and slow. They take a lot of time (for me) but not brutal.

I am not trying to show that I train harder than anyone else - in fact quite the opposite. I train less than others. I've overtrained for events in the past and this current plan does not have me overtraining.

I am training to "complete" and not "compete" in a half iron this year. YMMV if you are attempting to get much faster in a short amount of time (calendar days). If you are looking to be efficient in terms of hours training my plan might not be so bad... Oh, and like others have mentioned I take Mondays off. If I were trying to get significantly faster in shorter calendar day time I would train more often with varying intensities with lower per workout miles. That, currently, is simply not my goal. I do follow a periodization schedule and I do taper before races of consequence (others simply get folded into the plan).

I do get faster over time at the same HR with this training plan. But I'm not "fast" by most standards and I'm certainly not "fast" when I do short distances. I believe this training is effective for half-iron events and not short distance events. I think I would have to add more days if I were training for iron - but I'm not training for iron.

And, I may not be competing at or near my potential for what it's worth.

I do not believe I lose "form" over the weekend in my running or biking because I do these activities one day after the other. In other words, I do not believe I will get injured because I am using this training plan. I may get injured but I do not believe the cause would be this plan.

In short, I don't believe I'm risking very much.
2008-06-16 5:29 PM
in reply to: #1469520

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
JohnnyKay - 2008-06-16 12:56 PM

csibona - 2008-06-16 2:39 PM

I do not understand what "risk" I would be taking by doing these activities on the same weekend. Are you concerned about overtraining? I think the HRM keeps me in check.

[SNIP] But perhaps your training would be more effective with a more consistent training load versus big weekends and long recoveries. [SNIP]




I am not quite sure what you mean when you say "more effective?" Do you mean I could run/bike faster with the same HR? Less injury prone?
2008-06-16 5:39 PM
in reply to: #1469645

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
amiine - 2008-06-16 1:36 PM

There is nor risk per say unless an athletes is indeed doing too much training (20+ hrs) but let me explain it this way: do you taper for big races? Why do we taper? Well, because we want to make sure that after we have stressed our bodies as much as possibly to adapt and become as fit as possible we can be recovered from that and the combination will allows us to achieve peak performance. Well, take the same principle to every day sessions; if you get to perform a given session as rested as possible (or less fatigued) then you will be able to produce better training adaptations. That’s why most training plans suggest alternate hard/long days with easy days so your body can get to recover from sessions to session and the sum of all will optimize your training gains.

Chronic fatigue accumulates overtime, that’s why at certain weeks during a training cycle we feel spent, tired, lethargic and like our paces are dropping instead of improving because our body is overloaded. Once we back off and recover we grow fitter and faster, and that's the principle behind splitting quality sessions on different days… Again there are times when tough training weekends/cycles and race rehearsals are important, but those occasions are the exception not the rule.

Anyway, for those who currenlty do the long ride/run over the weekend and if your schedule allows you, then try moving the long run mid week for a training cycle/phase and see if you notice any difference or not.



I do taper before races to recover for the reasons stated above. I do monitor my efforts (through HRM) and paces to ensure that I'm not overtraining. I have had the occasional "bad day" where I see that my training pace is significantly slower than the my average training pace (at the same HR) so I tend to choose a shorter distance for my long distance run over the weekend. If my HR and pace were off on the long distance run I would stop early and recover (so far this has not happened - that is I have not had two bad running days in subsequent training efforts). I can not really tell if the reason I have a "bad day" is through training/illness/season/mood/etc.

I train a maximum of 15 hours per week so far. I do periodize my schedule so it varies week by week. I plan to taper for about three weeks before the half-iron.
2008-06-16 6:26 PM
in reply to: #1469676

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
Daremo - 2008-06-16 2:47 PM

As has been mentioned numerous times, with 2 or 3 days of recovery in between your key quality workouts you gain more from them over the long run.



Again, like all things, this is not an absolute truth and there are contrary opinions on that subject.
2008-06-16 6:38 PM
in reply to: #1470241

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

For some elites that may be the case, but for the average joe/jane triathlete there have been more than enough coaches/physiologists that would land on the take-time-between side of the fence.

I think you should reserve your judgement on the topic until after Vineman as you mentioned, then you can give a solid first hand take on what you felt worked better.

From a purely physiological standpoint it does more harm then good though.



2008-06-16 6:44 PM
in reply to: #1470259

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
Daremo - 2008-06-16 6:38 PM

For some elites that may be the case, but for the average joe/jane triathlete there have been more than enough coaches/physiologists that would land on the take-time-between side of the fence.

I think you should reserve your judgement on the topic until after Vineman as you mentioned, then you can give a solid first hand take on what you felt worked better.

From a purely physiological standpoint it does more harm then good though.



Why not just take my IMAZ or Kona times as a for example as I trained the same way then. You are drawing a conclusion and you shouldn't.
Now that I have debunked that....
I do agree that for many the utility of breaking up the long stuff can be of benefit, and for others they can handle volume/load and still improve. It all depends on the person.

Edited by bryancd 2008-06-16 6:51 PM
2008-06-16 6:48 PM
in reply to: #1470269

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
I said the average joe/jane ... everyone knows you're a genetic freak .... Tongue out
2008-06-16 6:52 PM
in reply to: #1470289

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
Daremo - 2008-06-16 6:48 PM

I said the average joe/jane ... everyone knows you're a genetic freak .... Tongue out


I agree, but it's usually that same average Joe/Jane that has those same time constraints. It' stough, as we all know too well.
2008-06-16 8:05 PM
in reply to: #1470241

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
bryancd - 2008-06-16 6:26 PM
Daremo - 2008-06-16 2:47 PM

As has been mentioned numerous times, with 2 or 3 days of recovery in between your key quality workouts you gain more from them over the long run.

Again, like all things, this is not an absolute truth and there are contrary opinions on that subject.
to Rick's defense he stated this from a physiological prespective and he is correct. There might be others with different opinions as to how structured training (and that's fine) but that doesn't change the fact that training adaptations are maximized when proper recovery (easy, active recovery or days off) is scheduled between quality sessions . Train your body without enough recovery and eventually you'll hit a wall.  Anyway, athletes are free to follow the approach that works for them, what they believe in and what fit their schedule/needs. I just think it is wise to test/try some of this things so you can make sure you are getting the best ROI that's all.
2008-06-16 8:06 PM
in reply to: #1470117

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
csibona - 2008-06-16 6:29 PM
JohnnyKay - 2008-06-16 12:56 PM

csibona - 2008-06-16 2:39 PM

I do not understand what "risk" I would be taking by doing these activities on the same weekend. Are you concerned about overtraining? I think the HRM keeps me in check.

[SNIP] But perhaps your training would be more effective with a more consistent training load versus big weekends and long recoveries. [SNIP]

I am not quite sure what you mean when you say "more effective?" Do you mean I could run/bike faster with the same HR? Less injury prone?

I mean you could have your training produce better results come race day.



2008-06-16 9:49 PM
in reply to: #1470457

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
JohnnyKay - 2008-06-16 7:06 PM

csibona - 2008-06-16 6:29 PM
JohnnyKay - 2008-06-16 12:56 PM

csibona - 2008-06-16 2:39 PM

I do not understand what "risk" I would be taking by doing these activities on the same weekend. Are you concerned about overtraining? I think the HRM keeps me in check.

[SNIP] But perhaps your training would be more effective with a more consistent training load versus big weekends and long recoveries. [SNIP]

I am not quite sure what you mean when you say "more effective?" Do you mean I could run/bike faster with the same HR? Less injury prone?

I mean you could have your training produce better results come race day.



And, I am still not clear, do these better "results" on race day mean speed? There are only a few things that are objectively measured on race day - swim, bike, run, t1, and t2 all measured in time. So are these better "results" that I will spend less time performing one or more of these activities? And, specifically, which ones? I suppose I understand one thing from the above comment, my HR does not mean squat on race day. I think I knew that already.

"Results" and "more effective" are terms that are a little too squishy.
2008-06-17 12:31 AM
in reply to: #1468873

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
I think there is some great advice in here for both sides. I have been doing my long rides Sat and long runs Sunday. I just did a HIM 2 weeks ago and ran a 1:25 so I know that even though my run fitness may not be suffering too much, I just feel that it may not be at it's best.

I will definitely post back after a few cycles and let you all know how it works for me.
2008-06-17 7:04 AM
in reply to: #1470661

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
csibona - 2008-06-16 9:49 PM And, I am still not clear, do these better "results" on race day mean speed? There are only a few things that are objectively measured on race day - swim, bike, run, t1, and t2 all measured in time. So are these better "results" that I will spend less time performing one or more of these activities? And, specifically, which ones? I suppose I understand one thing from the above comment, my HR does not mean squat on race day. I think I knew that already. "Results" and "more effective" are terms that are a little too squishy.
I thought I explained in detail above why it could be beneficial to move your long run mid week and do long rides over the weekend, but if you still believe your way is the best way then by all means keep on training the way you prefer. The OP asked the question and we provided him with different opinions and it seems he at least will try splitting long sessions apart a go then he will be able to judge by himself whether it benefits his training and racing results.

By the way, even when a HRM can be a good training tool to gauge training efforts I wouldn't rely so heavily on it *try* to tell when you are overtraining, tired, etc. because that can be misleading at best and unreliable at worst. I am sure you won't believe this but at least now you know Enjoy your training

2008-06-17 7:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

csibona - 2008-06-16 10:49 PM

And, I am still not clear, do these better "results" on race day mean speed? There are only a few things that are objectively measured on race day - swim, bike, run, t1, and t2 all measured in time. So are these better "results" that I will spend less time performing one or more of these activities? And, specifically, which ones? I suppose I understand one thing from the above comment, my HR does not mean squat on race day. I think I knew that already.

"Results" and "more effective" are terms that are a little too squishy.

"Results", as in finish time.  Sorry, I was unaware there was some other kind of result that was a major concern for you on race day.  Nothing "squishy" about it from my view.

To try to be clear, IF you wanted to maximize your performance on race day then a 'big' weekend with a light volume mid-week is unlikely to produce the best results.  But if that training balance works well with the rest of your life and produces satiosfactory results for you in races, then you shouldn't worry about it.

2008-06-17 7:49 AM
in reply to: #1468873

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

Maybe we are beating a dead horse here, I don't know, but here's one other thought.

I totally agree that time between quality sessions is physiologically a good idea, for the sake of recovery, and thus better training sessions.  The point I'd like to suggest is that which training session is one's 'quality' session could be different at different stages of the training cycle, and could depend on one's goals at the time.

(Disclaimer:  (my training has included running only until this year -- so I'm totally experimenting when it comes to multi-sport -- and anyway I'm recovering from injury right now.)

For example, at some times in my training my hardest session by far is an intervals session that I run typically on Tuesdays, and the rest of my training was more or less designed around that session -- so I'd 'pad' it either side with easier/recovery days.  So if I were to do a long bike, long run, and intervals, I'd probably prefer to pad the interval session rather than the long run session.  Of course, logistics can get in the way, but I'd consider something like Fri long bike, Sun long run, Wed intervals, or some such thing.

Anyway, my point, for what its worth, is just that the sessions that require the most R&R might not necessarily be your longest sessions. 



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