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2008-07-10 12:46 PM

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Subject: Training advice-my run bites
I had the worst run, maybe not the worst, but it was my first TT if you can call it that. My time for my 30 minute run was 12.3/mile  I'm using the sprint to oly plan and my run is not getting any better.  Should I replace a bike with a run? I'm incredibly frustrated. This is my 2nd season and I've never been a runner (never did swim either but my swim is good now)  but this is freakin ridiculous. My log is open for the world to see and  I'd appreciate any suggestions.


2008-07-10 12:50 PM
in reply to: #1520640

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Runner
Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

Firstly, relax.  It takes a while.  Years, even.

Secondly, you need more miles.  Try to run 4 times a week.  Get your weekly mileage up to around 30.  Keep the runs nice and easy, no need to get fancy.

Also keep in mind that training paces may not change much.  My easy training pace is the pretty constant, yet my race times still drop. 

2008-07-10 1:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites
denny.l - 2008-07-10 12:46 PM

I had the worst run, maybe not the worst, but it was my first TT if you can call it that. My time for my 30 minute run was 12.3/mile  I'm using the sprint to oly plan and my run is not getting any better.  Should I replace a bike with a run? I'm incredibly frustrated. This is my 2nd season and I've never been a runner (never did swim either but my swim is good now)  but this is freakin ridiculous. My log is open for the world to see and  I'd appreciate any suggestions.


I cant say it will work for you but this worked for me. I did 2 tri's last year (oly) and a 70.3 this year. Last year my run totally sucked. I was consistantly running (if you call it that) at a 12/mile pace. I hire a trainer this year to help me train for the 70.3. He started every workout with a warmup on the treadmill (level 6 = 10/mile). I ran for 10 min. before the rest of my circuit training. After about 20 min. into the circuits he put me back on the treadmill (5 min) and did that again 40 min in. I train with him twice a week. After about a month he pushed me to train at level 7 = 8:34/mile . About 3 months in he wanted me to run a mile at Level 8 = 7:30/mile. I thought he was crazy but he stood there for 7 1/2 min while I ran. To my suprise I made it. Now keep in mind when I go out and run for 3-4 miles there is no way I could keep that pace but what was a 12 min/mile is now an 8:30-9 min/mile.
2008-07-10 1:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

As Scout said, patience, consistency and volume (without getting hurt).  I started a couple yers back and hated running, never did it, was never good at it.  It's taken me a while, and I was very frustrated at first as well.  But the more you do it, the more consistent you are, the changes will come.

And it's funny, when I was running 11 minute miles I was in awe of people running 9 minute miles (in a race).  When I ran 9 (in a race), i was in awe of people running 8.... and so it goes

And my training runs are nowhere near 8, much much slower.

2008-07-10 1:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites
Scout7 - 2008-07-10 1:50 PM

Firstly, relax.  It takes a while.  Years, even.

Secondly, you need more miles.  Try to run 4 times a week.  Get your weekly mileage up to around 30.  Keep the runs nice and easy, no need to get fancy.

Also keep in mind that training paces may not change much.  My easy training pace is the pretty constant, yet my race times still drop. 



^^Very good advice. I would add to slowly build up your mileage per week - so 11 this week, 12 the next, 13 or 14 the next, etc. As Scout7 says, it takes time and patience. Keep the runs easy and steadily increase your miles per week and you will get faster.
2008-07-10 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

Just to echo what ChrisM said.  Build the miles slowly and no need to run fast during training.  The majority of my running miles are at a 9:00/mi pace.  Yet, I run a 7:22 open 1/2-marathon. 

Edited to add:  Use the off-season to focus on running.  It's tough to build running miles while you're also swimming and biking.  I used Dec-Mar this past winter to train for and race a 1/2-marathon.



Edited by mbmoran2 2008-07-10 1:57 PM


2008-07-10 6:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

I'm terrible on the run too.  Don't know about Sprint to Oly but earlier this year I used the 12 week Heart Rate Oly plan and the varied run workouts really made a difference, track workouts at 10K pace, etc.  Now the 10 week Oly "speed" plan I'm using incorporates sprints, etc., interesting workouts like 1:30 total - 20 min warmup, 20 at 10K, 5 min easy, 20 min @ 10K, 5 easy, 10 min at sprint tri then cool down. I really liked that workout.....

I was so used to "just logging miles" that it seemed counterintuitive to spend, say, 40 minutes and not cover a lot of ground.

BUT that said, in my first tri of the season I saw a really nice improvement from lsat year, so I'm guessing there must be something to it

Good luck!

2008-07-10 7:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

As others have said, you're not doing enough running to see much of an improvement. Your log indicates you ran about 10 miles per week last month. That is nowhere near enough to have solid improvements. It's really not even enough to be able to do any speedwork.

So basically, if you want to improve your run, you've got to run. 10 miles/week isn't going to do anything. It will take some time, but build up to the 30 miles/week as already suggested just through easy running. Keep that going for several months, then introduce some speedwork. If all goes well, by next year you should have some decent numbers to talk about.

2008-07-10 7:55 PM
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Fishers, IN
Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites
I agree with Scout, frequency is a key-I've heard three to sustain and four to gain. For awhile I would not worry at all about pace, just get the runs in. 4 times per week running four miles is better than 3 times a week running 5 miles. Personally I would run 5-6 times a week short distance (4-5 miles) and not worry about pace. At this point the pace will come naturally without you thinking much about it at all. Trust me on this, not too many years back (8 years ago) I could not even run - weighed 236 lbs. Had to use the elliptical till I could get on the treadmill, then the roads. Now down to 165 lbs and running marathons at 6:40 pace. Focus on building frequency, then mileage, then speed. But for a year or so, don't worry about the speed it will progress without any focus whatsoever . The biggest mistake new runners make is running too fast too often, let the body adapt and it will come. If you must, here and there pick it up a bit but overall consistency (frequency) is key.
2008-07-10 8:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

Frequency is key. Here are my 2 cents.  Have you ever tried interval training?  It sucks....I mean this type of training sucks for various reasons.  However, I must say that interval training has worked wonders for my run.  Basically intervals are short sprints coupled with a rest period.  I will post some articles from mens health, love that magazine!  I hope this helps.  I know it did for me.  The more I use this type of training the more I notice my results.  I am not as tired and can run for longer times!  Luck!

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=weight.loss&category=abs.diet&conitem=265a99edbbbd201099edbbbd2010cfe793cd____

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=cardio.activities&conitem=3d812c4d88ee9110VgnVCM10000013281eac____

The second article is better and if you look at the message board you will find a table that you can use for training purposes. 

2008-07-11 7:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

I would not recommend incorporating intervals for a new runner.  In fact, I would state that the primary method of making gains while running is total weekly volume.  Mixture of runs, intensity, those are secondary.

Intervals are great, and they have their place in the training schedule.  But you shouldn't do them too often, and you should keep the period relatively short.  Throwing yourself into intervals too soon is a good way to get injured. 



2008-07-11 7:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites
Don't mean to hijack but I've got another question re improving your run: how do you know if you can safely start to add speedwork? I have been running for only 15 months and can manage a 17k long run well. I have built up to a weekly total of 25k (sorry, thats 15.5 miles). I know this is not a lot of mileage, do I have to wait before I attempt speedwork or hills? Should I work on increasing the overall mileage for now??
2008-07-11 8:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

Thanks everyone. The cool thing about triathlon (besides the awesome people) is that you have three things to work on.  I couldn't swim 25M in the pool Jan 07, but I swam 3000M in the river last week and liked it, a lot.   I've always liked to ride bikes, but was told the other day by a guy I've been training with (an IM) that I'm as good or better rider than most of the guys he usually rides with. SO I have two sports that are going REALLY well. 

Now it's time to get focused on the run. I appreciate the clear and simple advice.  My TP has me running 4 days a week, but since I'm so slow, the time in the plan doesn't give me the mile volume. If I focus on distance instead of time then I can make sure to get the distance volume that I need. Makes so much sense. Thanks guys.

I know running will be like swimming (next year); I'll do a 10k next summer and like it, a lot. Thanks!

2008-07-11 8:55 AM
in reply to: #1522197

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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

aquagirl - 2008-07-11 8:46 AM Don't mean to hijack but I've got another question re improving your run: how do you know if you can safely start to add speedwork? I have been running for only 15 months and can manage a 17k long run well. I have built up to a weekly total of 25k (sorry, thats 15.5 miles). I know this is not a lot of mileage, do I have to wait before I attempt speedwork or hills? Should I work on increasing the overall mileage for now??

Here's my take on the whole speedwork issue:

You should primarily focus on building weekly total mileage.  The focus should be on frequency, volume, and consistency.  There is no exact number here.

Speedwork is used for a period of time, not year-round.  There are no exact amounts, and different people respond better to different types of workouts.  If you're someone who has some talent for speed, shorter intervals work better.  If you're someone who has the ability to go forever, but not real fast, then tempo runs are probably going to be your key speed workout.

When do you start to focus on speed?  I would say about 8-12 weeks out from the race you want to peak for.  If you've never done speedwork before, I suggest learning as much about it as you can, and not creating your own schedule to incorporate it.  Go off a plan from somewhere.

I've seen people be able to jump into interval training with no problem.  I've seen people get injured just by running past the track.  It's all an experiment of one.  That being said, I think the majority of people (myself included) are better served by not worrying about doing much more than a tempo run once a week, especially for the first few years.  I also think that most triathletes should probably not worry about getting fancy, as run volume tends to be low, and just getting miles in is a better way to spend time.

2008-07-11 11:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites
denny.l - 2008-07-11 9:25 AM

Now it's time to get focused on the run. I appreciate the clear and simple advice.  My TP has me running 4 days a week, but since I'm so slow, the time in the plan doesn't give me the mile volume. If I focus on distance instead of time then I can make sure to get the distance volume that I need. Makes so much sense. Thanks guys.

I know running will be like swimming (next year); I'll do a 10k next summer and like it, a lot. Thanks!



Scout has good advice.

The only thing I would add is I always find that the long run is key for me. If my average daily run is 4-6 miles, then when I can get my long run up to 8-12 miles the shorter one get lots easier.
2008-07-11 11:44 AM
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Tyler,
Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites

ever done strides after your runs? You can do them after EVERY run if you wish they will not hurt you.

start off with like 4x20s or 100m strides the first few weeks and build up from there to about 10. Yeah and it wouldn't hurt to run 4-5x a week.



2008-07-11 1:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Training advice-my run bites
Tons of good advice in this thread...don't want to beat a dead horse, but these are the things I'd want to emphasize:

--More volume. You really aren't running enough miles a week to improve in the way you'd like. As is often said: Train your limiter. If the run is your limiter--and assuming you have constraints on training time--then you need to start shifting time to the run. I do three runs a week and make progress...but up until Jan 2007, I was running seven days a week and 35-42 miles a week...i.e., I'd gotten the base-building out of the way before I switched to triathlon. You should aim (as others have said) for four runs a week minimum at this point in time.

--Don't sweat the speed (yet). You are still building a base. I think I noticed in your logs that you have a run course with hills...that's fine. You can build some strength that way, but you shouldn't worry much at this stage about speedwork. Concentrate on going longer at your current pace.

--Speaking of longer: Make the commitment to doing one significantly long run (at a relaxed pace) every week. Try to increase that incrementally...no more than 10% at any one increase. Doesn't have to happen absolutely every week and plateaus in distance are natural. But commit to the long run session.

--Using the (tri) offseason for run focus was mentioned: Great idea. Even here in SoCal where we can bike year round, I shift to a run focus over the winter. I have a marathon I do in late winter largely because it's a great time to train for that.

Good luck!
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