General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Getting comfortable going downhill in the rain... Rss Feed  
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2008-07-22 7:53 AM

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Subject: Getting comfortable going downhill in the rain...

So the fact that it rained all freaking day long on Sunday for Ironman Lake Placid, combined with the fact that I hate the big downhill stretch to Keene, where one is basically going down a mountain pass, led to my downfall and thus DNF at IMLP that day.  I was absolutely terrified going down hill, braking way to much, going all of about 8 miles an hour, legs shaking.  Just bad. 

I've crashed after my rear tire lost contact with the road going down a little hill in the rain before (I knew I was going down before I did, but couldn't do anything about it).  I've raced the Columbia tri the last two years when it rained on the bike.  Then 5 weeks before raceday, I went over a curb and hurt my shoulder (not fully healed for raceday) when riding on a flat road in the middle of a sudden downpour. 

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I could get more comfortable going downhill, in particular, in the rain?  At this point, I need to find a way that actually makes me get through the race and actually make the bike cut-off that I wasn't making on Sunday. 



2008-07-22 8:11 AM
in reply to: #1548068

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Subject: RE: Getting comfortable going downhill in the rain...

Sorry about your DNF, I heard the conditions were brutual.   

I love going down hills.  And at a little over 200#s, I can get going fast, quick. 

First you HAVE to get over the fear of falling.  If you have that fear, you will tense up and the chance of falling is more likely.  How you get over that fear I don't know.  I guess just keep riding down hills, going faster and faster each time.  Sounds like a great work-out!

When I'm flying down a hill, I like to think that my wheels are gyroscopes and the faster gyroscopes turn, the more stable they are. 

If you don't know how to ride down a hill, here is how i do it:

I ride with my weight a little off my saddle and back.  Weight of the front end of bike.  Feet level with the ground(if I'm not pedaling), and pull my knees against my top tube.  I don't ride "aero" over 35ish(depending on road; condition, stoping needed, turns, etc)  If I don't know the hill I'll ride with my hands on my brakes ready to apply. 

 

2008-07-22 6:44 PM
in reply to: #1548068

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Subject: RE: Getting comfortable going downhill in the rain...
First, I think you're going to need to have to let some time pass. As it goes on you won't remember it being as bad or as scary as it was. Second, you have to remember all the times you rode in the rain and didn't have a problem. You're no more or less likely to crash now, you don't have more or less traction now in the rain than you did before the accident, you don't have any more or less control than you did before the accident.

Also, you need to get your confidence back. If it were me I would do 3 things. I would read everything I can online about riding in the rain. How to brake, how to steer, how to accelerate, how to coast, uphill, downhill, everything. Find stuff about riding motorcycles in the rain too since the physics are exactly the same with the exception of motorcycles being able to accelerate much faster obviously. Get as much knowledge as you can. Read about other people's accidents and what they did wrong or try to figure out what they did wrong.

The next thing I would do is do buy myself a good pair of tires that are specifically made for rain. Research those as much as you can so you feel 110% confident in them when you buy them. There's obviously no guarantee that you won't lose traction, but having tires that are designed for the rain will lessen the likelyhood.

Finally, go out and ride in the rain. Ride flats at first, even if it's back and forth. Ride on wet grass. Then start riding slight uphills and downhills that you know you only have to go straight on - no high speed turns. Remember, you're more likely to lose the rear wheel in a turn. A little at a time and you'll be more comfortable in the rain than ever before.

Also, remember than you can crash any time. My girlfriend, her uncle and I took a leisurely ride this past friday, 12 mph, on a bike path with almost no one else there. She turned her head to look at her uncle behind her, turned forward and was started by a branch that she probably could have just let hit her, swerved hard left then right and then up and over. 4 hours, 6 stitches and 1 ambulance ride (yes an ambulance ride from a 12mph crash!) we left the hospital. 

BTW, she walked out of the ER and got on her bike and rode back to the ferry about 2 miles so we could go home. It's all mental.

2008-07-22 11:09 PM
in reply to: #1548068

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Subject: RE: Getting comfortable going downhill in the rain...
Your tense. Tense people crash going downhill. It's a simple as that. Doesn't matter if it is wet or dry.

How to get over that, I don't know.

Here are a few tips on technique.

Brake before the turn, not in it. You shouldn't even be touching the brakes during a turn when it's wet.

A very relaxed grip on the bar is critical. Use your core to hold up your upper body. You should basically have your hands around the bars but be putting very little pressure on them. Let the front of the bike float within your grip as it encounters changes in road surface.

Even when it is wet, most people underestimate how much grip their tires have. You can turn much sharper then you think, but if you grab the brake, you break that traction. But back to the beginning, it you can't get over the mental hold up, you won't be able to go fast. I spent a lot of time getting thrown to the dirt learning to trust tires. I don't think you want to go that route, but I don't know of a better way. I'm just glad I did it in my teens.

Just because I am a mountain biker and I think it helps tremendously with my ability to deal with adverse conditions on the road I'm going to say, pick up a mountain bike, go ride in the dirt. Crashing doesn't involve road rash and you can learn a lot and gain a lot of confidence.

2008-07-22 11:21 PM
in reply to: #1550496

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Subject: RE: Getting comfortable going downhill in the rain...
chriselam - 2008-07-22 6:44 PM

Find stuff about riding motorcycles in the rain too since the physics are exactly the same with the exception of motorcycles being able to accelerate much faster obviously.


IMHO, riding motorcycles has very little in common with bicycles unless we start talking about 40-50 pound downhill bikes, and even then it is only when you get them going really fast (think over 40mph) and it is still minimal. The rotational weight of motorcycle wheels is much larger and the ratio of rider weight to vehicle makes it so that there is very little in common between the two. You can't manhandle a motorcycle, understanding the physics and using it to your advantage are crucial to riding a motorcycle fast. Most motorcycles are either equal to my weight (light MX bikes) or much heavier. A heavy downhill bike is only 1/5th of my weight and I can tell it what to do. The gyroscopic effect of the front wheel isn't noticeable, even at speeds over 50mpg.

And before I get told I don't know what I am talking about in regards to motorcycles, I have ridden motorcycles, everything from MX to a trip around a track on a Ducati Superbike, I've raced downhill mountain bikes and spent the better part of the last 16 years trying to go as fast as possible down hills on bicycles. There is very little in common with the two and telling someone who is afraid to go over 8mph to read up on motorcycle technique is just going to confuse them and do nothing to help them get over the mental hurtle that is the root cause of the issue.

Sorry if I am coming off as being harsh, but I've seen this same tip posted before. Triathletes tend to get very technical, but at the level of the OP, in regards to the question at had, simple is better. Go out and ride in the rain as often as possible. There is no secret trick to get yourself to relax, the more you do it without crashing the more relaxed you will be. If you do crash, you have to expect to be tentative when you are out in the rain again, but you have to get out and do it again.

One more tip I just thought of. Remember to smile. It's just like talking on the phone, if you smile while talking on the phone the person on the other end will pick up on the tone in your voice. Riding bikes is supposed to be fun, smile while your going downhills with water spraying in your face and remember that your having fun. There's nothing better then a poo-eating grin full of road grit.

Edited by graceful_dave 2008-07-22 11:29 PM
2008-07-22 11:24 PM
in reply to: #1548068

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Subject: RE: Getting comfortable going downhill in the rain...

I don't expect that you'll ever be completely comfortable going downhill in the rain, given your history. Hell, the TDF riders today admitted to being scared on the way down today, and if they're scared, I am too.  And it's completely an anomoly that you had a blowout downhill in the rain, I'm not sure I'd store that in my brain as bad stuff - it's a one-off.

That being said, the things I'd encourage include: 1) train with confident people, where you can follow their line and speed, and bring you through it,  2) make sure your equipment is rock-solid (good tires, skewers well tightened, good brakes, etc),  3) avoid and manage the major pitfalls in the rain (riding on the paint / road stripes, or oily corners), 4) and this one is mental, but know it's OK to go fast - lots of folks do, and 5) come to grips that not everything is in your control.  Even if you're perfect, you may have an accident....that's gotta be OK, or you will be in fear of the whole ride.   

No one can make you go downhill faster than you want to. It's just a question of you wanting to. And being prepared to do so.  



2008-07-22 11:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Getting comfortable going downhill in the rain...

I'm sorry about how your race ended Sunday.  

Best thing to do is practice. I'd start with hills without the rain. That is adding two factors together when really you need to feel confident and comfortable descending long hills in good weather first. Find some metric or regular century rides that are hilly and do them for practice and gaining confidence.

We all have a I'm afraid speed on down hills on the bike. It is different for everyone. It can change with confidence.  To some degree how we feel about descending is something we just have.

You will think I'm insane but I hit almost 39 on that descent in the pouring rain..only reason I braked is my eyes were blinking so much I couldn't see much and figured I needed to slow down so I could see and manage the best I could. I love descending which is why I picked doing a hard hilly course for my first IM. I think it is how I'm wired.

The pro man that finished 10th told me a guy on our tri team tops out at 55 mph on that hill and the pro thought that was insane and he is a good cyclists. Clearly that is above his I'm comfortable descending speed.

I rode with my daughter Emily one day and she can climb faster than I do so she went up this hill and straight down a hill (I would have gone down a different street but she proceeded without me) with a sharp 90 degree turn on a narrow road at the bottom..she couldn't brake in time, missed a basketball net pole, electric pole and a mailbox and fell in a driveway. She is still fearful and rides her brakes down hills. We ride together and I pick hilly routes, encourage her and let her work it out.  If she isn't comfortable I don't want to push her.

You may want to find a good cyclist from your tri team to ride with and have them give you some pointers on descending. You may gain confidence with some skill changes. I ride hills with my seat slightly off my saddle, squeezing my saddle slightly with my thighs, feet at 3 and 9 o'clock with stronger leg in back, when turning change feet position so outer foot is down and inner foot is up, in aero or out depending on speed and road ahead. I find that having my feet and arms/hands have all my weight I feel more in control of my bike as I can lean to turn or make slight adjustments easier than sitting on my saddle.

I should tell you all winter I wondered and worried a little what doing that Keene hill would be like the rain. I was not looking forward to it when I was doing a training ride up there and it rained. But it was a huge confidence builder and come race day I knew I could handle it and how I would do it. So rain and long steep downhills for all of us are challenging.

Other thing is you know you..if desending isn't your cup of tea pick a flatter IM might be an option as you work on the descending issue.



Edited by KathyG 2008-07-22 11:39 PM
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