General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Running gait Rss Feed  
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2008-08-30 11:11 AM

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Subject: Running gait

Could someone take a look at this picture of me, #227 and tell me if the way my back foot is tweaked out to the side could be an efficiency issue? I run so slow, and I really haven't taken a look at my gait.

 

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Edit: Guess you cant see the number, but that is me in the front there. Not the little blond but the guy struggling behind her.



Edited by Bp74 2008-08-30 11:13 AM


2008-08-30 11:51 AM
in reply to: #1639330

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Subject: RE: Running gait
i wouldnt say that your foot being in that position would slow you down, a buddy of mine does something very similar to that and hes an FOP guy. when talking about your gait, the main thing looked at is how your foot touches the ground and which side your ankle moves to (pronation, supination). if you have a good stride, and the correct shoes for your gait, along with a good follow through (or kick as some people call it), then your foot pointing that way shoudnt be a big deal. (assuming all other things in your stride/gait are correct and in line)
2008-08-30 4:13 PM
in reply to: #1639330

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Subject: RE: Running gait
I do think odd little movements like that add to inefficiency, which causes you to slow down as you run. An efficient runner will maintain a good solid pace for the duration of the race they've trained for. As Hal Higdon said, "The winner is often the one who slows down the least".

It's really hard to tell anything from that photo. Do you have access to a treadmill and a video camera? If so, film yourself running and post to Youtube. Then post the link back here. I filmed myself running and was amazed at all the stuff I was doing wrong...odd little flick of my hand, bad posture, and heel striking (despite trying hard for two years not to heel strike)!!!

PS: film yourself from side view and frontal view.

Edited by keyone 2008-08-30 4:13 PM
2008-08-30 4:22 PM
in reply to: #1639330

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Subject: RE: Running gait
keyone, did you ever get rid of the heel striking? i made the switch from heel to midfoot striking and have been pretty happy, its been about a year now. i really had to focus on it while making the change tho.
2008-08-30 4:35 PM
in reply to: #1639587

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Subject: RE: Running gait
JonCT - 2008-08-30 5:22 PM
keyone, did you ever get rid of the heel striking? i made the switch from heel to midfoot striking and have been pretty happy, its been about a year now. i really had to focus on it while making the change tho.


I'm a real slow learner when it comes to running! I've been trying to improve my run for two years. I did the treadmill videos in the spring. I probably should redo those to compare! This season I have been focusing on the midfoot landing (still), upright posture, slight forward lean (ala pose/chi running) not hanging my head down (bad habit of looking at the ground), and higher cadence (lifting foot up as soon as it hits the ground). It's hard. My impression is that I am getting better. But, just now, I looked at the bottom of my running shoes. Lots of wear on the heel = not good :-(

Ah well, I'm great on the bike, so I really can't complain about my tri life

Carol

Edited by keyone 2008-08-30 4:36 PM
2008-08-30 9:04 PM
in reply to: #1639330

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Subject: RE: Running gait
Never thought of that, thank you for the advice.


2008-08-30 10:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Running gait

As someone else said, it is hard to tell from the picture and a video would help, but I think you would be far better off going to a coach, a physio or another professional who would tape you and analyze your gait for you.  Some of the best Tri money I spent this summer was on a gait analysis from a local coach.


2008-08-31 7:44 AM
in reply to: #1639330

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Subject: RE: Running gait

1. it is impossible to say anything about your running gait with one pic or even with several or video unless you use a high speed camera.

2. the only way to test running economy (not efficiency) is to do so at a lab to measure VO2Max, speed, etc.

3. If your run times are slow I really doubt it has to do with your gait but more with your fitness

4. Unless you have chronic injuries I would not attempt to change anything significant on your gait unless you overstride. Heel striking is NOT a bad thing, several of the best elite marathoners heel strike; I wish this nonsense labeling it as bad would stop.

2008-08-31 10:24 PM
in reply to: #1639330

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Subject: RE: Running gait

Yeah, the pic is not really helpful.  Here are a few random comments.

* Most people have better form when they run fast.  Try running fast (for a short distance) and just see what it feels like.  Try to mimic that form even on longer runs. (EXCEPT: your kick will be lower.  I've seen some video from proponents of 'chi' running and the like, and there are some pretty ridiculous looking shots of people running what appears to be 10 minute miles with super high kicks.  IMO, this is stupid, wasted, energy.  Your kick will get lower the slower you run and there's nothing wrong with this.)

* Some say that running barefoot also promotes good form.  I do find that this works for me.  YMMV.

* Volume is almost always the answer, here, in my (limited) experience.

* If you think that weird-looking sideways motion makes you slow, watch Paula Radcliffe run some time.

* And yes, don't worry about heel striking.  I think that's another myth from 'chi' running and the other 'revolutionary' running 'systems'.  DO worry about overstriding.  Your foot should strike more or less directly below your center of gravity.  If it strikes heel first, but is under your center of gravity, don't worry about it.

2008-09-01 6:16 AM
in reply to: #1641129

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Subject: RE: Running gait
mdickson68 - 2008-08-31 11:24 PM

* Some say that running barefoot also promotes good form. I do find that this works for me. YMMV.



I do this as well, but only do it on a soft surface like grass. Once I did it on a soft surface track (those orange tracks) on a hot day. That workout was good for proper landing and getting foot up FAST.

* And yes, don't worry about heel striking. I think that's another myth from 'chi' running and the other 'revolutionary' running 'systems'. DO worry about overstriding. Your foot should strike more or less directly below your center of gravity. If it strikes heel first, but is under your center of gravity, don't worry about it.



I think it's physically impossible to land with your foot under your center of gravity AND heel strike. If you are landing under your hips properly, you will be landing midfoot. :-P
2008-09-01 7:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Running gait
So you did the run at Hines Park this week end ... Did you have a good itme?


2008-09-01 8:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Running gait
keyone - 2008-09-01 7:16 AM
mdickson68 - 2008-08-31 11:24 PM

* Some say that running barefoot also promotes good form. I do find that this works for me. YMMV.

I do this as well, but only do it on a soft surface like grass. Once I did it on a soft surface track (those orange tracks) on a hot day. That workout was good for proper landing and getting foot up FAST.

Advanced workout:  barefoot running on hot asphalt. 

 

* And yes, don't worry about heel striking. I think that's another myth from 'chi' running and the other 'revolutionary' running 'systems'. DO worry about overstriding. Your foot should strike more or less directly below your center of gravity. If it strikes heel first, but is under your center of gravity, don't worry about it.

 

I think it's physically impossible to land with your foot under your center of gravity AND heel strike. If you are landing under your hips properly, you will be landing midfoot. :-P

It might seem so, but it's not physically impossible.  I do it.  If you absolutely cannot do it, you might be leaning forward too much (either bending at the waist, or rotating your body forward), or you might be cutting your stride too short.  I'm not talking about landing with your toes pointing up in the air; just a very slight heel first, then immediately roll to mid foot and on around.  It's barely noticeable, but the first thing to hit the ground is definitely the heel (for me).  And the strike doesn't have to be EXACTLY under the c.o.g..  For most, it will probably be just slightly out front.  Check out some video of elite runners and I bet you'll see lots of them running more or less that way.  (Anyway, that's what I think I see when I watch them slowed down.)

 

2008-09-01 8:50 AM
in reply to: #1639330

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Subject: RE: Running gait

I know volume is why I run so slow, but I thought (wished) maybe that image would show something glaringly wrong.

 

I finally figured out what heel striking ment. I will check for that for sure.

2008-09-01 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Running gait
mdickson68 - 2008-09-01 8:42 AM
keyone - 2008-09-01 7:16 AM
mdickson68 - 2008-08-31 11:24 PM

I think it's physically impossible to land with your foot under your center of gravity AND heel strike. If you are landing under your hips properly, you will be landing midfoot. :-P

It might seem so, but it's not physically impossible.  I do it.  If you absolutely cannot do it, you might be leaning forward too much (either bending at the waist, or rotating your body forward), or you might be cutting your stride too short.  I'm not talking about landing with your toes pointing up in the air; just a very slight heel first, then immediately roll to mid foot and on around.  It's barely noticeable, but the first thing to hit the ground is definitely the heel (for me).  And the strike doesn't have to be EXACTLY under the c.o.g..  For most, it will probably be just slightly out front.  Check out some video of elite runners and I bet you'll see lots of them running more or less that way.  (Anyway, that's what I think I see when I watch them slowed down.)

You're right - it is possible to heel strike and land correctly under the body (e.g., without overstriding).  There have been studies (not many but at least one that I know of) that demonstrate this. 

And to all of us who do look at video of runners' gaits, keep in mind that video like youtube and analog TV is mostly useless and will allow only very crude observations about obvious differences in footstrikes. In other words, even a trained researcher is going to find it difficult to tell between heel and midfoot strikes from the video alone unless they are using special high speed cameras (at about 120 pictures a second).

 

2008-09-01 9:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Running gait
Bp74 - 2008-09-01 8:50 AM

I know volume is why I run so slow, but I thought (wished) maybe that image would show something glaringly wrong.

 

I finally figured out what heel striking ment. I will check for that for sure.

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Good luck with everything.  If you eventually feel a need to change and you want to do this by yourself, go really slow and make any changes methodically and carefully.This will help your muscles get used to the changes without injuries.  A few years ago when I bought into the whole "heel strike" myth without understanding more of the issues, I shortened my stride length, increaased my cadence, began to land more mid foot and, in trying to keep my mileage up, I ended up with very sore calf muscles eventually leading to an Achilles injury. I changed too fast for my body to adjust.

I will stick with my first post to your thread - go get a gait analysis from a professional.  Besides technique, you also need to consider shoes, stretching, and strength when making changes (like trying to correct overstriding - if that is even a problem for you).  I am all for going it alone and figuring it out by ourselves, but a good running coach can help you quickly and with fewer injuries if you are willing to pay for it.

 

 

2008-09-01 9:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Running gait
Gritty - 2008-09-01 10:07 AM

You're right - it is possible to heel strike and land correctly under the body (e.g. i.e., without overstriding). There have been studies (not many but at least one that I know of) that demonstrate this.

I'm guessing you mean this study , well publicized by the science of sport guys (here -- they give a nice analysis of it as well, but you can find a dissenting view here ).

There are a few others. But there are also lots of studies designed to measure other things that involve (as a side effect of the study, not its central concern) high-speed images of runner's gaits. This one , for example.

There are, of course, many elite runners who do appear to strike mid sole. But we should be wary of trying to emulate elites directly anyway. One thing to keep in mind is that almost everybody starts running on their forefoot as they approach sprinting speeds. And keep in mind that elite marathoners are running at a pace that most recreational runners would consider nearly sprinting. (A 4 minute mile is about a 15 second 100m.)

And to all of us who do look at video of runners' gaits, keep in mind that video like youtube and analog TV is mostly useless and will allow only very crude observations about obvious differences in footstrikes. In other words, even a trained researcher is going to find it difficult to tell between heel and midfoot strikes from the video alone unless they are using special high speed cameras (at about 120 pictures a second).

I think that a lot depends on what you are looking for. Sure, if you want to know the precise angle at which the foot hits the ground, you need fancy equipment. (And once you find it out, what are you going to do with that information??) But a lot can be learned by just watching. One of the best 'video analysis' tools in the world is the human brain.



Edited by mdickson68 2008-09-01 9:45 AM


2008-09-01 10:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Running gait
mdickson68 - 2008-09-01 9:42 AM

keyone - 2008-09-01 7:16 AM I think it's physically impossible to land with your foot under your center of gravity AND heel strike. If you are landing under your hips properly, you will be landing midfoot. :-P

It might seem so, but it's not physically impossible. I do it. If you absolutely cannot do it, you might be leaning forward too much (either bending at the waist, or rotating your body forward), or you might be cutting your stride too short. I'm not talking about landing with your toes pointing up in the air; just a very slight heel first, then immediately roll to mid foot and on around. It's barely noticeable, but the first thing to hit the ground is definitely the heel (for me). And the strike doesn't have to be EXACTLY under the c.o.g.. For most, it will probably be just slightly out front. Check out some video of elite runners and I bet you'll see lots of them running more or less that way. (Anyway, that's what I think I see when I watch them slowed down.)



Thanks for the insight. Maybe I won't worry so much about the wear on the heel of my running shoes. There is alot of wear on the forefoot too. (time for new shoes!).

2008-09-01 11:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Running gait
mdickson68 - 2008-09-01 9:45 AM

I'm guessing you mean this study , well publicized by the science of sport guys (here -- they give a nice analysis of it as well, but you can find a dissenting view here ).

There are a few others. But there are also lots of studies designed to measure other things that involve (as a side effect of the study, not its central concern) high-speed images of runner's gaits. This one , for example.

That's the study and thanks for the other references 

mdickson68 - 2008-09-01 9:45 AM

I think that a lot depends on what you are looking for. Sure, if you want to know the precise angle at which the foot hits the ground, you need fancy equipment. (And once you find it out, what are you going to do with that information??) But a lot can be learned by just watching. One of the best 'video analysis' tools in the world is the human brain.

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I do believe that even poor quality video can help a runner see some of their own bigger inefficiencies and that they can learn from them -if they know what to look for or its pointed out to them in review. 

As for watching other runner's footstrikes, though, I'll hold with my original statement that only very crude observations about obvious differences in footstrikes can be found with poor video quality. It can differentiate the extremes in footstrikes with runners over a brief period in a race, but I suggest that's not too useful to watch.

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