General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team Rss Feed  
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2008-09-05 2:13 PM

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Subject: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
Hey guys!

I hope that the end of the season is treating everyone well!

I'm probably going to post this question in the "Triathlon Talk" forum as well, but I am considering training (and maybe racing) with the cross country team here at UBC (University of British Columbia) this winter. Does anyone have any background in Cross country, and can give me any advice on this decision? I know I need to work on cycling, which I will, but I would LOVE to have structured workouts and to improve my running for my planned running races this winter (2 Half Marathons [maybe more], and MAYBE a marathon!).

Would cross country training prepare me for these distances or is it a lost cause?
Argggghhh I dont know what to do!
Apparently the coaches will be all over me, since most people who try-out for the team are completely new to running.

Thanks a ton,
D-rokk


2008-09-05 2:19 PM
in reply to: #1653374

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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team

I ran in HS, so not quite the same.

Have you asked the coach about this?  He may or may not have an issue.

Be advised that the team is mostly likely going to be running some fairly intense sessions.  If you're new to running, I wouldn't do this.  Collegiate level XC is not really a beginner's sort of thing.

I think you're much better off with your own training.  Their training is going to be geared towards peaking for their meets, and their distances.  You may be causing more harm than good.

2008-09-05 2:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
It really depends on what your coach does.
2008-09-05 3:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team

Scout7 - 2008-09-05 3:19 PM Be advised that the team is mostly likely going to be running some fairly intense sessions.  If you're new to running, I wouldn't do this.  Collegiate level XC is not really a beginner's sort of thing.

Collegiate x-country is a lot of tempo and interval work.  Not for the faint of heart or under-trained.  Even running on a Junior college team (US Naval Academy Prep. School) we had some pretty intense sessions racing at least every other week and sometimes every week.  Collegiate will do 8 or 10k as well, not 5k in most cases.  And depending on the quality of the team, you will be surrounded by some seriously fast runners.  At the Prep. school I was usually 5th or 6th on the team and when we went and ran against the Naval Academies Plebe team (think JV - freshman collegiate type team) there top 5 guys beat our number one guy ........ who was recruited by the Academy to run!!!!  Talk about humbling experience .......... I ran my best ever 8k up until that point that day and was 5th for our team .... and still came in like 20th place.  Most of them ran sub-30 easily.



Edited by Daremo 2008-09-05 3:16 PM
2008-09-05 3:30 PM
in reply to: #1653374

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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team

A gazillion years ago, I ran with my very small college's xc team and loved every minute of it (even though I was the slowest on the team). It was tough with lots of intervals, hills, plyometrics, etc., every day for 2 hours or so. I hadn't considered a marathon before that, but knew I could train for and do one after that one season (the college got rid of xc after that year) and subsequently ran 14 marathons. 

I say "go for it."

2008-09-05 3:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team

 

 



Edited by trigods 2008-09-05 3:45 PM


2008-09-05 3:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
trigods - 2008-09-05 4:43 PM

 

 

Or what he said.

2008-09-05 3:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team

For me, collegiate running was too taxing on my body to try and incorporate it into triathlons.  If you're looking to improve the running, then it may work.  But if you're planning on swimming and biking at the same time, I wouldn't recommend it.  Like Daremo said though, training for a marathon or half is much different than training for an 8k.

Bottom line:  If you want to be a better runner in general, join the team.  If you want to be a better triathlete, don't.  If you want to be a better marathoner, don't.  You'll need more miles and less speed work.

2008-09-05 3:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
I also have no collegiate experience; ran HS x-country. So FWIW here are some observations and my opinion.

(1) the season runs through the end of november. You can resume a more standard long distance triathlon training after it is over.

(2) the UBC website says regarding tryouts:
"Cross Country - Every Tuesday at 5:00 p.m. at the UBC Rugby Fields behind Osborne Gym. No experience necessary." This implies to me that they are willing to work with anyone, not just the elites.

my opinion is that you should go for it. it will add to your college experience and you will definitely learn training ideas/principles that you can sprinkle into your own training later in life. you have an entire lifetime to train alone. hopefully, you have only four or five years of college.

good luck!
2008-09-05 3:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team

Let it also be known:

College running is nothing like high school running.

2008-09-06 6:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
If you have the conditioning, I suspect running with a cross-country team will improve your speed.  When I ran cross-country, we did mostly marathon training (in the off season) and during the season did 440, 880, and mile repeats.  I don't know what the philosophy of the cross-country coach you will have, so I can't say how training with his team will help you.  In any case, I have found that speed work definitely helps longer distances.


2008-09-06 6:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
It depends on the team.  If the team is a true college XC team I don't think I would do it.  They are going to expect you to train hard everytime and probably race.  If you are doing it for the structure and are going to take it easy on race day might not be fair to everyone else.  If it is run more like a masters swim team where they work with all levels I would say go for it.  Bottom line is talk to the coach and ask what he expects.  Is he going to yell and scream at you when your intervals get slower one day and you did it on purpose because you had different plans that day.
2008-09-06 6:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team

IME with university varsity cross country in Canada (not sure specifically when it comes to UBC) it would probably work with your goals to have structured training, gain some experience racing and prepare for your half marathons.  As others mentioned, talk to the coach but most of the programs in Canada are going to have a wide range of athletes (from 31' 10k'ers to 40+ 10k'ers) so you would probably be able to fit in with one of the groups.

As the men's distance is 10k, the training should work well (with some minor tweaks) as you prepare for half marys but if you are really considering a marathon I would probably not pursue the x-country team as the intensity will probably prevent you from getting the volume you require.  

Also, if you are going to run x-country, there will probably be an expectation that you run middle distance during the indoor track season, especially if you have some speed.

Shane

2008-09-07 11:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
steveseer - 2008-09-05 4:57 PM

Let it also be known:

College running is nothing like high school running.



No joke.

With a good coach, it'll beat you sideways, kick you while you're done and either a)break your body or b) break your soul.

If you survive, you'll be wicked fast. I generally discourage most of my non-workhorse runners from running at top notch XC college. I want them to continue running and not totally be turned off. There are many much more casual programs and it looks like that may be the on your looking at.

However, don't expect anything like HS milage or intensity. I've got a guy from last year (complete workhorse (60-80 mpw in season) who's running at a D3 school in Michigan. They put in about 60 miles at an EASY 6:20 pace and then some long (10-14) mile tempo runs underneath 6.

Not for the faint of heart.
2008-09-07 2:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
Words of advice from a former college cross country runner and current college cross country coach (that would be me):

In the States, "Varsity" is typically the top 7 runners on the team (number you are allowed to run in championship meets). All runners can be on the college team, but the top 7 fastest are the Varsity squad. At small meets, most teams can run an unlimited number of runners. At larger invitationals they often have two separate races, an 8k Varsity race and a 5k sub varsity for runners not in the top 7. 10k is only raced at Championship level races (again, this is the way it is in the States). If the team needs you as one of their top 7 runners, you may have less flexibility in your training (since your racing directly impacts the team result). If you are not fighting for a spot in the top 7, then you can take a little more control in your training, as at that point you are not scoring points for the team in meets so you can pretty much race for yourself.

Most men's teams run a minimum of 55 miles per week, some teams average higher, some peak out closer to 90-100 for their very top runners. Double workouts are common (morning and afternoon runs) and speed/lactate threshold workouts or hill workouts or fartleks or tempo runs are done 2x per week, usually M/W or Tue/Th with a double or long run on the days in between. Long runs range from 10miles for less experienced runners to 15-18 for top varsity guys.

The number of races varies - smaller D3 schools here can race upwards of 8-12 times per season, whereas larger D2 and D1 programs may race only 4 or 5 times a season (but most of their meets are larger races against their top regional competitors).

If the team at your school has a strong program in place and already has their top 7 guys established, there will be less pressure on you to perform and you can have more flexibility in your training. The structure and mileage and workouts will make you run faster for all distances from 5k to 1/2 marathon. You can easily and successfully train for a 1/2marathon with a good 5k-10k program. Keep in mind that the best 5k training program for a beginner level runner or triathlete is not going to be the same as a 5k or 10k training program for an experienced runner. The intervals you do for a successful cross country season are similar enough to the necessary intervals to race a 13.1mile race that you will not see any problems in your 1/2marathon training.

Also, regarding track: very few colleges with flexible programs will force a runner to do a track season. If you explain to the coach that you race tris in the spring/summer and don't want to be committed to an indoor or outdoor season, he/she should respect your decision. The hardcore XC guys will need to use the track seasons to maintain their fitness for XC, but you will do the same thing with your tri training.

One of the triathletes who I coached ran D3 XC her freshman year of college, then indoor track, then switched to tri training at the end of indoor season in March. She was running 45-55miles per week for XC, less for Indoor, and had no trouble adjusting back to swimming and cycling after she was done racing track.

If you want to improve your running, the XC team will do it for you far better than you will on your own.

I'm not just saying this because I coach college cross country, I also ran all 4 years of college (D2 and D3) and that was made me a stronger athlete all around. If I never ran XC in college, I never would have taken up cycling, crossed back into running, then crossed into multisport. As a result, my running is my strongest part of my triathlon races, despite the fact that I am primarily a cyclist and spend many, many more hours training on the bike than running.

The college cross country experience can be the most rewarding and beneficial in building a strong endurance base for triathlon. Remember, our races end with a run.
2008-09-07 3:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
Thanks so much for all the replies guys and gals!

This seems like a pretty contentious issue, since the eventual goal is for me to do a marathon. At the same time, I am still going to be doing purely Half-Ironman and shorter distances next year, so anything that can help lower my Half-Marathon time is greatly desired by moi!

That said, it's going to be difficult to manage cycling and swimming compared to the amount of running I'll be doing. The training schedule for the XC team is as follows:
Tuesday 5:00 p.m.
Thursday 12:30 p.m.
Saturday/Sunday mornings

What the coach told me in the e-mail was that Mondays and Wednesdays were for cross training and Fridays were a rest day. Now that said, Tuesdays/Thursdays will be my swimming days as well, with the UBC triathlon club which I am the swim liaison for. I am going to end up having swim practice before X-C training, but I have already relayed this information to the X-C coach. Cycling is the one thing I'm worrying about, as I will definitely be able to train Monday/Wednesdays, but I'm going to have to fit in my long ride on either Saturday/Sunday AFTER X-C training.

Now, with regards to the Varsity question, the system is a little different in Canada, but I was wrong to say "varsity". What I should have said was, is that if I qualify for the "travel team" I will travel to meets with full expenses paid, and most likely attend CIS (NCAA champs equivalent). This is what I should have said initially.

I'm quite excited about the opportunity to train with a team (just like the ol' swimmin' days) and hopefully race! Again, it's the worries about the cycling training that are making me uneasy about the whole thing!

Thanks again for the replies everyone!
Derek


2008-09-07 8:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
At my school, cross country is a club sport rather than one of the college's official sports.  The team is pretty new, and this will be the first year they actually have a coach.  You can join at either a competitive or recreational level.  I'm planning on joining up recreationally, so I can get some good runs in when it fits my tri training schedule without having to overdo it.  I think I'll run competitively next year, once I've got a good running base built up and can handle all the speedwork.
2008-09-08 10:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
You will never get as fit, as you will training and racing with a team. You also will never have this opportunity again.
2008-09-08 12:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team
I would go for it. You will definately get a lot faster.

I ran two years Junior College and two years D2, I improved by leaps and bounds and did not run the track seasons in D2. I think we ran about 40-45 miles a week but I may not be remembering correctly. I tried to do the volunteer morning runs my senior year but ended up getting hurt because my legs weren't ready for it. I was still getting faster and wished I would have continued hard training after my senior year.

My grades were always better during the fall quarters and semesters when I was busy with CC.

Being able to run fairly fast has also stayed with me even though I only started run training again in November of 06. 10k has dropped from 37:14 to 35:03 this year on 460 miles of running at age 43.

So life-long you'll stay faster and probably get better grades at college because having more structure.
2008-09-10 11:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Running on a Varsity Cross Country Team

First, thanks for all the advice!

So I had my first practice!

One: There are TONS of fast guys!  I mean I wasn't at the back, but I was solid MOP with some guys WAY out front

Two: Intervals HURT!  1200m intervals on 60 seconds rest, went 4:09/4:06 for 2 intervals before the coach told me to stop since it was my first workout!

Three: Some guys dont like to warm-up easy!   I especially noticed it with the other rookies, since they were huffing and puffing after our 25 min. warm-up and they definitely had trouble with 10 min. "steady" (pace faster then warm-up pace), not to mention the intervals

Four: I LOVED it!  Great bunch of people, even some triathletes in there!  Felt like I pushed reasonably hard on the intervals, but not TOO hard, since Sooke (Half-Iron) is this weekend!

 

Anyways, it was a great experience!  Can't wait for the next practice!

I'll keep you updated!

Derek
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