Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking?
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2009-04-21 1:17 PM |
Subject: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? So I know we have the heel/fore/mid foot strike fight all the time here. And we know where the BT running experts stand on this. The barefoot running article has now made its way onto my triathlon team's yahoo group. They are all quite enamored with the "heel striking is bad" mentality. While we've discussed here that some of the same basic ideas behind a lot of these schools of though are consistent and good, we know that many of them say heel striking is BAD and that's not necessarily true (for various reasons, we don't need to rehash the argument again). So my question is, who are the folks "in the biz" out there who make a good, well-supported case for the fact that heel striking isn't necessarily WRONG, and that footstrike doesn't HAVE to be changed? I am just curious. Thanks Edited by wurkit_gurl 2009-04-21 1:18 PM |
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2009-04-21 1:21 PM in reply to: #2100281 |
Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? Doesn't seem to hurt Kara |
2009-04-21 1:23 PM in reply to: #2100281 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? Just about every professional running coach (not piddly level like me ... I'm talking world class/olympic level). This "mid-foot" striking phenomenon is really more of a triathlete thing. It is not something you see discussed as much in pure running arenas. Their concern is more the landing POSITION of the foot, not the actual part of the foot that lands first. Especially when you do look at the elites (which of course is not the way to judge what is best, only shows what the best are actually doing) and the studies done on them ...... where 90%+ of the top finishers contact their heel first in their stride. In fact one referenced around here often demonstrated that those who forefoot or midfoot struck usually did not finish in the top 20 or some unbelievable number like that. |
2009-04-21 1:26 PM in reply to: #2100294 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? ChrisM - 2009-04-21 11:21 AM Doesn't seem to hurt Kara It shouldn't hurt her, as she isn't heel striking. The heel may may be touching first, but that is not the same as heel striking. The "strike" portion is where the majority of the weight is on the foot, and hers is mid-fore foot. Edited to add - It might also be more indicative to get some shots from the beginning of the race. I believe the above photo is in the last mile or so at the end of the race, almost everyone runs "heavier" at the end of a race than at the beginning. John Edited by tkd.teacher 2009-04-21 1:30 PM |
2009-04-21 1:28 PM in reply to: #2100316 |
Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? tkd.teacher - 2009-04-21 11:26 AM ChrisM - 2009-04-21 11:21 AM Doesn't seem to hurt Kara It shouldn't hurt her, as she isn't heel striking. The heel may may be touching first, but that is not the same as heel striking. The "strike" portion is where the majority of the weight is on the foot, and hers is mid-fore foot. John i just wanted to post her picture, spoilsport |
2009-04-21 1:29 PM in reply to: #2100305 |
Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? Daremo - 2009-04-21 2:23 PM Just about every professional running coach (not piddly level like me ... I'm talking world class/olympic level). This "mid-foot" striking phenomenon is really more of a triathlete thing. It is not something you see discussed as much in pure running arenas. Their concern is more the landing POSITION of the foot, not the actual part of the foot that lands first. Especially when you do look at the elites (which of course is not the way to judge what is best, only shows what the best are actually doing) and the studies done on them ...... where 90%+ of the top finishers contact their heel first in their stride. In fact one referenced around here often demonstrated that those who forefoot or midfoot struck usually did not finish in the top 20 or some unbelievable number like that. Ah, makes sense. Just wondering if there were any sources to be cited in contrast to the barefoot running posts. So basically anyone who's NOT trying to make money off of us silly triathletes ChrisM - I wasn't doubting the validity of heel striking. We just see all of these books - Chi Running, Pose, Evolution Running - that tout that heel striking is BAD, so I was wondering who we could cite to say that it's not necessarily bad. Obviously, it's not - we've all see the picture or video footage of Craig McCormick - he's got the weirdest run ever, but it clearly works for him Oh, never mind, now I see you just wanted to post her pic She IS super-cute, I have to agree
Edited by wurkit_gurl 2009-04-21 1:31 PM |
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2009-04-21 1:34 PM in reply to: #2100320 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? wurkit_gurl - 2009-04-21 11:29 AM Daremo - 2009-04-21 2:23 PM Just about every professional running coach (not piddly level like me ... I'm talking world class/olympic level). This "mid-foot" striking phenomenon is really more of a triathlete thing. It is not something you see discussed as much in pure running arenas. Their concern is more the landing POSITION of the foot, not the actual part of the foot that lands first. Especially when you do look at the elites (which of course is not the way to judge what is best, only shows what the best are actually doing) and the studies done on them ...... where 90%+ of the top finishers contact their heel first in their stride. In fact one referenced around here often demonstrated that those who forefoot or midfoot struck usually did not finish in the top 20 or some unbelievable number like that. Ah, makes sense. Just wondering if there were any sources to be cited in contrast to the barefoot running posts. So basically anyone who's NOT trying to make money off of us silly triathletes ChrisM - I wasn't doubting the validity of heel striking. We just see all of these books - Chi Running, Pose, Evolution Running - that tout that heel striking is BAD, so I was wondering who we could cite to say that it's not necessarily bad. Obviously, it's not - we've all see the picture or video footage of Craig McCormick - he's got the weirdest run ever, but it clearly works for him
Heel striking, if you are actually heel striking (Landing with most of your weight on your heel while it is still out in front of you) IS bad. It's hard on the knees, it slows you down, it's just nasty. If you want to really feel heel striking, run down a NON rocky trail. Find one that is wide, smooth, no tree branches, etc. Run gently down it, letting your heels "brake" you as you run down. That is what heel striking is, and if you do that on the level street, you're gonna tear your legs up. Most of the time (at least for me) I almost have to land straight legged to even demonstrate it, and it hurts. A lot. John |
2009-04-21 1:34 PM in reply to: #2100318 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? ChrisM - 2009-04-21 11:28 AM tkd.teacher - 2009-04-21 11:26 AM ChrisM - 2009-04-21 11:21 AM Doesn't seem to hurt Kara It shouldn't hurt her, as she isn't heel striking. The heel may may be touching first, but that is not the same as heel striking. The "strike" portion is where the majority of the weight is on the foot, and hers is mid-fore foot. John i just wanted to post her picture, spoilsport Oh. Oops. Well, ehrm, carry on... John |
2009-04-21 1:35 PM in reply to: #2100281 |
Expert 1168 | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? Here is an interesting read on the subject: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/04/running-technique-footstrik... |
2009-04-21 1:37 PM in reply to: #2100320 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? The distinction that needs to be understood in ALL the various running programs (to include barefoot, CHI, POSE) is that the terms flying around are used either interchangeably or "incorrectly." By my definition and how I approach discussions "strike" is the part of the foot that hits the ground first. Plain and simple. And it is almost unnatural to land while running/walking any other way then heel first. "Position" or "location" of the strike is the CRITICAL thing in the discussion and is where everyone gets confused. As tkd mentioned, while Goucher (and almost all professional runners) make their first contact with their heel, the actual landing and push off is more with the entire foot flat underneath their body line. The reason to land underneath yourself and not in front (or behind) is because you apply the most force in a plane perpendicular to your landing - i.e. 90 degrees. If you land in front of your center line, a component of the force is pushing you backward (overstriding). If you land behind your centerline you are decreasing the amount of push that you get and will lean forward to compensate (think falling over). I could care less if someone I'm working with lands on their heel, arch or toe ....... as long as they are landing underneath their center of gravity and not in front of behind. Edited by Daremo 2009-04-21 1:41 PM |
2009-04-21 1:38 PM in reply to: #2100294 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? ChrisM - 2009-04-21 2:21 PM Doesn't seem to hurt Kara Well...she did totally get chicked in that last mile... |
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2009-04-21 1:40 PM in reply to: #2100337 |
Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? tkd.teacher - 2009-04-21 2:34 PM [ Heel striking, if you are actually heel striking (Landing with most of your weight on your heel while it is still out in front of you) IS bad. It's hard on the knees, it slows you down, it's just nasty. If you want to really feel heel striking, run down a NON rocky trail. Find one that is wide, smooth, no tree branches, etc. Run gently down it, letting your heels "brake" you as you run down. That is what heel striking is, and if you do that on the level street, you're gonna tear your legs up. Most of the time (at least for me) I almost have to land straight legged to even demonstrate it, and it hurts. A lot. John Sorry, should have left a caveat - I understand that landing in front of your body with your heel is bad, for the reasons that you listed. But as others have explained here, that's wrong no matter what - but that doesn't mean your heel can't hit the ground first without it being detrimental. Sorry - I know what you all mean when you refer to the 'okay' kind of heel striking. But apparently, most folks on my tri team don't. Or rather, it's not being explained well enough. |
2009-04-21 1:42 PM in reply to: #2100320 |
Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? ChrisM - I wasn't doubting the validity of heel striking. We just see all of these books - Chi Running, Pose, Evolution Running - that tout that heel striking is BAD, so I was wondering who we could cite to say that it's not necessarily bad. Obviously, it's not - we've all see the picture or video footage of Craig McCormick - he's got the weirdest run ever, but it clearly works for him Oh, never mind, now I see you just wanted to post her pic She IS super-cute, I have to agree
yes, I am the last person to be offering running advice to anyone. apologies for the hijack Edited by ChrisM 2009-04-21 1:43 PM |
2009-04-21 1:43 PM in reply to: #2100351 |
Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? Daremo - 2009-04-21 2:37 PM The distinction that needs to be understood in ALL the various running programs (to include barefoot, CHI, POSE) is that the terms flying around are used either interchangably or "incorrectly." By my definition and how I approach discussions "strike" is the part of the foot that hits the ground first. Plain and simple. And it is almost unnatural to land while running/walking any other way then heel first. "Position" or "location" of the strike is the CRITICAL thing in the discussion and is where everyone gets confused. As tkd mentioned, while Goucher (and almost all professional runners) make their first contact with their heel, the actual landing and push off is more with the entire foot flat underneath their body line. The reason to land underneath yourself and not in front (or behind) is because you apply the most force in a plan perpendicular to your landing. If you land in front of your center line, a component of the force is pushing you backwards (overstriding). If you land behind your centerline you are decreasing the amount of push that you get and will lean forward to compensate (think falling over). I could care less if someone I'm working with lands on their heel, arch or toe ....... as long as they are landing underneath their center of gravity and not in front of behind. Right. I guess in the limited experience OUTSIDE of BT that I've had this stuff explained, there seems to be a disconnect between these ideas - and it seems as though all of these books have the same disconnect. I understand what is said here by all of you. Just wondering if there were sources out there that pull it together, in order to counteract these misconceptions. |
2009-04-21 1:44 PM in reply to: #2100345 |
Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? pseudoyams - 2009-04-21 2:35 PM Here is an interesting read on the subject: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/04/running-technique-footstrike.html [/QUOTE] Thanks |
2009-04-21 8:14 PM in reply to: #2100281 |
Member 40 | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? wurkit_gurl - 2009-04-21 2:17 PM So I know we have the heel/fore/mid foot strike fight all the time here. And we know where the BT running experts stand on this. The barefoot running article has now made its way onto my triathlon team's yahoo group. They are all quite enamored with the "heel striking is bad" mentality. While we've discussed here that some of the same basic ideas behind a lot of these schools of though are consistent and good, we know that many of them say heel striking is BAD and that's not necessarily true (for various reasons, we don't need to rehash the argument again). So my question is, who are the folks "in the biz" out there who make a good, well-supported case for the fact that heel striking isn't necessarily WRONG, and that footstrike doesn't HAVE to be changed? I am just curious. Thanks :) Having done a couple hundred run/gait analysis assessments with a couple DPT's and technology such as the EMEDx, I can tell you from our lit review on this very subject is that footstrike doesn't mean all that much, other than an area or location from which the assessor can begin to piece together information for the best fit when viewed from a pressure platform or video analysis. |
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2009-04-21 8:24 PM in reply to: #2100281 |
Extreme Veteran 344 | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? lol chicked in the last mile.... But seriously, can we at least go like a week without seeing this topic?!?!? Not like an hour.... |
2009-04-21 8:30 PM in reply to: #2100281 |
Pro 5169 Burbs | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? I totally have a girl crush on her. |
2009-04-21 9:16 PM in reply to: #2100281 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? some sources: 1. Foot Strike Patterns of Runners at the 15-km Point During an Elite-Level Half Marathon - Hiroshi Hasegawa J. Strength Cond. Res. 21(3):888–893. 2007 2. The Biomechanics of running, Gait & Posture, Volume 7, Issue 1, Pages 77-95, T.Novacheck 3. Biomechanics in Sport - By Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky, IOC Medical Commission, International Federation of Sports Medicine Also check out the articles by The Science of Sport from Ross and Jonathan - http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/01/running-technique.html One thing you will notice the more you read studies and available literature is that there isn't really one single source suggesting heel striking is the best way to run. What you'll find is that in general most elite runners heel strike and it is not the evil some people might want you to believe. Also the article you mentioned is rather intriguing and its concepts is something worth considering IMO, however I think it would be rather naive and actually dangerous to go out and ditch your sneakers for minimalistic ones or start barefoot running out of the blue. The takeaway IMO is: 1) there is NO one way for proper running 2) if it isn't broke don't fix it 3) do changes to your training gradually and over time (read years) and be wise managing your load 4) if you want to improve your running overall (LT, VO2, economy, injury resistance, etc) you need to run more 5) by running more with adequate gear (sneakers) your body naturally will select the best striking pattern and cadence for you based on that equipment, terrain, fitness, etc. 6) *IF* injuries are a problem for you and your training load is NOT the root of the problem then is could worth considering trying out less supportive/cushion shoes, start from scratch and build up slowly. Still, triathletes tend to jump into any new wagon they come across to whether the apprach/gear is adequate for them or not and whether the approach/gear is nothing more than a fad or a sound one. so no matter how much evidence you presente to them (both anecdotal and scientific), in the end they will believe whatever ther perceive as the "best". (i.e. fads like CFE) |
2009-04-21 9:28 PM in reply to: #2101446 |
Regular 86 West Chicago | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? trishie - 2009-04-21 8:30 PM I totally have a girl crush on her. I totally have a boy crush on her!! BTW Trishie, is this what you mean by "dicking around on the computer"? RE: I. am. EXHAUSTED. |
2009-04-21 10:29 PM in reply to: #2101430 |
Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? Jon311024 - 2009-04-21 9:24 PM lol chicked in the last mile.... But seriously, can we at least go like a week without seeing this topic?!?!? Not like an hour.... Actually, I was asking something the OPPOSITE of the topic that usually comes up. I already said that we've rehashed this issue several times. My question was an off-shoot of that topic, but slightly different. Thanks to those who have provided links and such. Edited by wurkit_gurl 2009-04-21 10:29 PM |
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2009-04-21 10:31 PM in reply to: #2101559 |
Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? JorgeM - 2009-04-21 10:16 PM some sources: 1Also the article you mentioned is rather intriguing and its concepts is something worth considering IMO, however I think it would be rather naive and actually dangerous to go out and ditch your sneakers for minimalistic ones or start barefoot running out of the blue. Oh, no worries - I don't plan to And I thought the article that was posted yesterday should be taken with a very large grain of salt. I just thought it was humorous that it was brought up today on my tri team's yahoo group. |
2009-04-22 12:46 AM in reply to: #2101559 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? JorgeM - 2009-04-21 7:16 PM some sources: 1. Foot Strike Patterns of Runners at the 15-km Point During an Elite-Level Half Marathon - Hiroshi Hasegawa J. Strength Cond. Res. 21(3):888–893. 2007 2. The Biomechanics of running, Gait & Posture, Volume 7, Issue 1, Pages 77-95, T.Novacheck 3. Biomechanics in Sport - By Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky, IOC Medical Commission, International Federation of Sports Medicine Also check out the articles by The Science of Sport from Ross and Jonathan - http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/01/running-technique.html One thing you will notice the more you read studies and available literature is that there isn't really one single source suggesting heel striking is the best way to run. What you'll find is that in general most elite runners heel strike and it is not the evil some people might want you to believe. Also the article you mentioned is rather intriguing and its concepts is something worth considering IMO, however I think it would be rather naive and actually dangerous to go out and ditch your sneakers for minimalistic ones or start barefoot running out of the blue. The takeaway IMO is: 1) there is NO one way for proper running 2) if it isn't broke don't fix it 3) do changes to your training gradually and over time (read years) and be wise managing your load 4) if you want to improve your running overall (LT, VO2, economy, injury resistance, etc) you need to run more 5) by running more with adequate gear (sneakers) your body naturally will select the best striking pattern and cadence for you based on that equipment, terrain, fitness, etc. 6) *IF* injuries are a problem for you and your training load is NOT the root of the problem then is could worth considering trying out less supportive/cushion shoes, start from scratch and build up slowly. Still, triathletes tend to jump into any new wagon they come across to whether the apprach/gear is adequate for them or not and whether the approach/gear is nothing more than a fad or a sound one. so no matter how much evidence you presente to them (both anecdotal and scientific), in the end they will believe whatever ther perceive as the "best". (i.e. fads like CFE) This post ought to be tattooed on the insides of any number of peoples' eyelids. Thanks, Jorge. Great post. |
2009-04-22 6:30 AM in reply to: #2101559 |
Regular 77 Manassas, VA | Subject: RE: Any reliable resources in SUPPORT of heel striking? If it aint broke don't fix it. To someone who is not a lifelong runner, the popular training articles and books do not seem to differentiate between heel striking and overstriding. Since much of the prevailing wisdom that I saw was to forefoot strike I began to change my stride a couple years ago. I went from comfortably progressing through 20 miles a week and 5k times falling below 24 min in training to hip pain and plantar fasciitis leaving me at 9min miles when I can run. I'm now working with a sports chiro and podiatrist to fix all this. Tread very carefully when changing your mechanics. |