General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite Rss Feed  
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2009-05-02 5:03 AM

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Subject: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite
You look at the results of almost any race and you will see the top finishers in the more competitive age groups rival the time of the Elite athletes. Not only that, the same athletes win with these times race after race. My question is this:

Why doesn't USAT enact the same rules NORBA does when it comes to upgrading athletes that continually win or place?

2.0 CATEGORY UPGRADING

  • 2.2 Beginner racers must move to their appropriate Sport categories after placing in the top five in five races (see 2.4 for specifics). Failure to do so may result in license suspension. If you participate in a state or regional series these upgrading procedures still apply. You may contact the NORBA Competition Director for a written waiver to this policy that will allow you to finish a series in your original category for a title.
    2.3 A Sport rider must advance to Expert after five top five Sport category finishes (see 2.4 for specifics). Failure to do so may result in license suspension. If you participate in a state or regional series these upgrading procedures still apply. You may contact the Competition Director for a waiver to this policy that will allow you to finish a in your original category series for a title.

    http://bicyclesusa.com/norbaup.html


    2009-05-02 5:56 AM
    in reply to: #2125231

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    Master
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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite
    your opinion makes sense, I just don't agree with it.

    if a former pro, or a former collegiate swimmer/track stud, or a AGer that busts his hump more than 95% of other AGer wants to continue to compete against me, feel free.

    Personally, I want to race against the best whenever possible...

    And chances are, the athletes that could be elite that want to stay AG, would suddenly just fall short of the standards to move up.....

    If I wanted to place in every single race, I'd spend all summer showing up to 200 field 5 ks in East Bumbleweed. 

    again, just my opinion....neither one is right or wrong.....
    2009-05-02 6:06 AM
    in reply to: #2125231

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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite

    USA Cycling does or will automatically move you up.  They did it to me (CAT III to CAT II) and it suxed.  I won a few races as CAT III but not like I won a ton of them, mentally I was not ready.

    I also don't agree even more bureaucracy is not what we need in the sport. 

    2009-05-02 6:13 AM
    in reply to: #2125231

    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite

    One of the production companies in this area did away with the Elite category for this season - don't know if they'll reinstate it.

    2009-05-02 6:45 AM
    in reply to: #2125231

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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite
    I don't think they are that close to the pros in almost every situation. They may be close behind a 2nd, or 3rd tier pro, but not the real PROs. What's the reason for them to do so? A lot of the time it takes you out of the results and pits you against, either nobody at local races.. or a lot of pros where you finish BOP. So what's the point?

    a lot of the fast guys are mid 30 year olds with familys and a job like the rest of us. They are just having fun and are realistic with how fast they really are. Of course there are some guys who grab their elite card, or race Elite if the field is right. But to get a PRO card and be forced to race as a pro at every race, to me doesn't sound as fun as you'd think.

    2009-05-02 8:07 AM
    in reply to: #2125231

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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite
    Back on 2006 I met the requirements to get an elite card and I could have raced a pro but I never did. why? well at the time I was working on getting faster and competitive but still I felt I was not in the same level of 2nd tier pros hence out of respect to them I decided to wait. My plan was to get work on get faster and by the time I was at least competing with 2nd tier pros I would make the switch, 2007 went well although I had some bumps on the road (fracture during a race) and 2008 wasn't the year I hoped for battling illness and weird injury.

    Many of the sort of fast athletes who qualify to get an elite card are IMO to quick to jump and race as elites and then get constantly beat by AGers. Yes they are elites but their results are not even on par with 2nd tier ones. I think the USAT should be more selective in their elite criteria so the guys racing as elites are really the best of the best and be recognized as such sort of like those on the ITU circuit. For me I believe I would have done a disservice to professonals trying to make a leaving, bring new sponsors into the sport etc by me racing with my elite card. 

    Anyway to the OP - Unless they would have a similar system as in cycling in which ALL racers compete based on skills and competitive level and not age or weight I don't think it would make sense what you propose. And knowing many triathletes I don't see how the USAT will move away from the AG format anytime soon. You sometimes see people debating whether to race this or that just to 'win' something and good for them, but the mentality in triathlon is different from that of cyclists or runners from what I've experienced. Another thing to consider is that it is common on USAC races for top places to receive cash prices which is never (or very rarely) the case on triathlon hence I don't see what's unfair about fast athletes winning their AGs.

    Speaking about myself, I rather go to a race with a very competitive field and get my a$$ kick and finish down the finishing places rather than go to small not competitive field and win my AG. If I get in good form as I once hoped for I might shoot to renovate my card sometime if not I'll keep having fun and shoot to kick booty against fast guys regardless of how I finish on my AG.


    2009-05-02 8:32 AM
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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite
    snowriderinfl - 2009-05-02 4:03 AM
    Why doesn't USAT enact the same rules NORBA does when it comes to upgrading athletes that continually win or place?

    When I was younger I raced elite and was eligible to turn pro but never did because there just wasn't much money in the sport. While racing AG triathlon is a lot of fun, it just doesn't compare with racing elite/pro.

    Going off in the first wave with no traffic on the course is an amazing experience. Back then (mid-90s), there weren't nearly as many races as there is now so you were racing the same guys at every race. I knew exactly who to swim draft off, who to try to catch on the bike (since that was my strength), and who I'd try to hold off on the run. On the bike, the course was so clear you could just hammer and reel the swimmers in. The coolest experience I ever had in triathlon was seeing the lead rider ahead following the cars and motorcyles that lead the race. Then catching and dropping him which I was able to do pretty often because my swim/bike combo was very strong. (I'd always get passed on the run though.)

    IMO, if you're a fast rider in AG, it's just a constant "on-your-left" dodgefest so you can never really get into the true time trial groove. Plus you can't tell who you're racing because there's so many people on the course. IMO, because of all that the guys in that pro/elite wave have a huge time advantage over the AGers.

    I said all that to qualify myself to say this: Anyone who is qualified to race elite/pro and chooses to race AG instead just to win an award is, IMO, a fool. I'd take DFL in elite/pro over first in AG any day, purely for the experience.

    Edited by breckview 2009-05-02 8:43 AM
    2009-05-02 8:42 AM
    in reply to: #2125343

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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite
    xx

    Edited by breckview 2009-05-02 8:43 AM
    2009-05-02 9:16 AM
    in reply to: #2125231

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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite

    I am also a proponent of the Cat system instead of AG system. Simply because I would rather race against others based on my ability instead of AG.

     

    There are a few reasons why those that are young, fast, and broke go pro quick. Free entry to races, homestays, and better sponsorship deals. In this industry most sponsorhips are in the form of highly discounted or 'pro pricing' on items. Which is normally at wholesale price or below. When you are already buying the same or similar products the discounts can add up over a year. The mojority of pros receive these types of deals. Outside of appearance fees, and money a free bike(s) is the holy grail of sponsorship.

    So there are other benefits outside of just racing against 'better' competition.

    2009-05-02 9:29 AM
    in reply to: #2125231

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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite

    I disagree with the idea for the very simple reason that you can't control who shows up.  I race the MBAA (mountain bike series) here in AZ.  Same as the Norba rules, you place in the Top 5 x times and you have to move up.  One of the girls I race with, I'm not sure there has been a race where more than 6 people showed up in her AG.  So it really isn't that difficult for her to place.  Now my husband has placed twice, but has 20 plus people in his AG sometimes.  Even I managed to get 5th at a race where there was only 6 people in my AG - and 1 was a DNF.  I am in no way, shape or form ready to be a sport rider.  Thankfully I will have probably saved myself from moving up next year just due to the people that will likely show up to the last 2 races. 

    Last years result showed that most races had 5 or less people in my AG.  So do you get automatically screwed because you showed up to race and no one else did even though you may not be anywhere close to the caliber of racer it takes to be in the next category?

    2009-05-02 10:03 AM
    in reply to: #2125400

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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite
    kmanus - 2009-05-02 8:29 AM
    One of the girls I race with, I'm not sure there has been a race where more than 6 people showed up in her AG.  So it really isn't that difficult for her to place. 


    That's a good point and it also messes things up nationally. There's only 24,000 people in my entire country but in our local weekly mountain bike series I think there's a minimum of 50 people racing in every level of both male and female. (I don't race it but I do check the results to see how my friends are doing). So if someone was sport in your races and then came here and raced sport, it would be a totally different experience.


    2009-05-02 10:12 AM
    in reply to: #2125343

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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite

    breckview - 2009-05-02 8:32 AM I'd take DFL in elite/pro over first in AG any day, purely for the experience.

    I do this in most of my local races and we often have a couple pros racing every race around here - including David Thompson (one of the best cyclists in the sport).  Not bragging, but if I race AG locally I usually either win or podium.  If there is an elite wave for registration I register elite every time.  I still place top 20 overall usually so I don't think its unreasonable for me to race in the elite wave.  I like races (like Spirit of Racine) that have an elite master division.  Being 48 years old, I don't pose any danger to someone's attempt to make a living out of tris if I race in the elite wave.

    In fact, USAT actually "penalizes" me (functionally, not outright) for racing elite instead of AG because they won't allow points from a race in which I race elite to count to my seasonal point standings.  That's why my national and regional rankings at the end of the season are meaningless - some of my best races don't get included in the rankings.  I'm making the conscious decision to race elite and give up the points and live with.  I'd still rather race elite and go toe to toe with the local fast guys.  The only local race I register AG is the Apple Duathlon because its a World Duathlon Championship qualifier and I can't qualify for Team USA/Worlds if I race elite.

    So, unless USAT changes their rule about not letting elite races count to your point standing there will be a lot of fast AG'ers who will continue to race AG because they essentially will be penalized if they don't.

    2009-05-02 10:21 AM
    in reply to: #2125231

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    Subject: RE: Age groupers that should compete as novice or Elite
    As a BOP'er, I'm not sure my opinion matters, since it is a purely theoretical issue for me.  But I guess I don't see what the advantage would be to race in the elite/pro status as opposed to AG, and so the incentive to make people change would not be there.  Is there better prize money? A comp'd race fee?  It seems to me that if the winner of the AG and the pro groups get the exact same thing, and you know you would likely place 4-5 in the pro group, you would not want to race in that group.  If there is money at stake (either upfront in the race fee or at the back end in prize money or sponserships), then top AG'ers would want to move up, leaving more room for those "next in line". And at what point is the AG'er cut off from having to make a switch?  I'd hate to be in my 60's or 70's, having outlived my AG enough to place, and then be forced to race against a bunch of young bulls.

    But like I said, I'm a BOP'er.  I may be missing something here.
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