General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks... Rss Feed  
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2009-06-04 9:05 AM

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Subject: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
I'm looking to buy a road bike and I'm hoping someone can give me a clear explanation of how the crank set will affect the overall ride.  (sorry if my terminology is not all right- I'm still learning!)

Specifically, I'm choosing between a bike with a 53/39 up front and 11-25 in the back, or a slightly cheaper bike with 52/42/30 up front and 12-26 in the back.

I get (from reading other forums) that the 53-11 gear will give me a faster top speed (all other things being equal)- but why?  And how much faster?

Considering I'm a girl, and live around a lot of hills- is there any reason I wouldn't want the triple?

Thanks!


2009-06-04 9:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...

I'll take a shot...

Your terminology is slightly off, you are talking chain ring (gears near the cranks/pedals) and cogs (small gears on the back wheel...  the group of which is known as the cassette, I think).  I call the parts of the front that aren't the chain rings the crank and the arms going to the pedals the crank arms...  ( I may be slightly wrong, someone will correct me though)

What you are choosing between is your gear ratios, big number up front and small number in the back mean tall gearing (aka high gear, aka slow pedal fast speed, aka 5th gear in your car) Smaller up front bigger in the back mean short gearing(aka low gear, aka fast pedal slow speed, aka first gear in your car)

So since you are a near hills and a sounds like close to a biking noob, you may want the lower gearing that the triple allows (the 30 front - 26 rear granny gear vs 39 front - 25 rear)... 

From what I understand a "compact crank" allows the use of smaller front chain rings, is probably lighter...  Not sure though...

You also want to check what model of components you are getting on each bike, other people know more about this then I do, but it may be worth getting the double even if the gearing is a little harder for you until you get some miles...

  -Andy

 

2009-06-04 9:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...

Gears are all about being able to maintain a comfortable pedalling cadence no matter how fast your bike is moving.  When it is moving fast (e.g., downhill), you want more teeth up front on the chainring and fewer on the cogs in the back.  Otherwise you will have to pedal very fast in order to move the bike any faster than gravity would do on its own.  Conversely, on a long steep climb you want fewer teeth up front and more in the back so that you can keep up a reasonable cadence without having to come up with a lot more power.  You can check out a calculator here that you can play with to see how the different combos overlap or change things.

From what little you have posted, I'm not sure there is a convincing reason for you NOT to get the triple.  Another option is to get a "compact" crank which allows smaller chainrings up front (e.g., 34/50)--giving up some "top end" for more "climbing" gears.  The reasons that might be attractive over the triple is lower weight (probably not a big deal for you) and generally less "fussy" maintainance (triples tend to require more 'tweaking' to keep them shifting to all the rings well).

2009-06-04 9:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
i have 36x50 front sprockets with 9  sprockets in the rear ranging from 12-25 teeth (as advertised).  I've only been riding for 5 months.  There are some pretty tough hills nearby, and i can honestly say that even in my lowest gear (small front sprocket, large rear sprocket), i have to get off the bike and walk with it sometimes.  I don't like my sprocket setup at all for hill climbing, but its great for straights.  At a 90 cadence in my top gear, i'm going 33+ mph.  In san antonio (and with my skill level)  the next gust of wind will make me drop down to 25mph.  At my skill level, i never feel as if i'm running out of gearing as i'm going down hills.

I would reccomend that whatever you do, try to find compact gearing in the rear chainrings. Its something you will appreciate greatly as you increase your skill level.

Edited by funkyd04 2009-06-04 9:51 AM
2009-06-04 10:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...

A compact drivetrain comes with a smaller bolt circle diameter on the cranks (the bolts that hold the chainrings on the crank.)  This allows the use of smaller chainrings than a standard double.  The 39/53 is a standard double.  A 34/50 would be more common on a compact drivetrain.  

Take the number of teeth in the front and divide by the number of teeth in the back.  Assuming both bikes have the same size wheel and the same length crank arm, this number will let you compare how easy it will be to climb a hill in that combination.  Lower numbers are easier.  The double has a low gear ratio of 1.56 while the triple has a low gear ratio of 1.15.  Much, much easier to get up long steep hills on the triple.

A double with a compact drivetrain is equivalent to a triple but without all the extra weight and complexity that comes with that middle chainring.

To determine how fast you can go in a gear you need to calculate gear inches.  This is the number of inches the bike will move per revolution of the cranks in that gear.  It is the number of teeth in the front multiplied by the diameter of the rear wheel divided by the number of teeth in the back.  For example a 53-11 on a 700x23 tire will get you 53x26.3"/11 = 126.7" per rotation of the cranks.  Using the 39-25 on the same bike you get 39x26.3"/25 = 41" per revolution of the cranks.  Multiply by the rpm you pedal at to get inches per minute.  Beyond this you have to convince Obama to go metric because my head hurts trying to convert inches per minute to miles per hour at 8am.  

Don't discount yourself for being a girl, there are some girls around here that can make many of the guys look slow.  If it's hilly and you don't have a lot of experience cycling, use the triple.  

2009-06-04 10:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
Great resource if you really want to understand gearing and speed potential

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/


2009-06-04 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
I don't really understand the gears, but I have a compact and am a girl.

I didn't really notice any problems with having a compact my first year and a half of cycling, mainly because I wasn't strong enough to be climbing (in order to descend) serious hills.

Now that I am, I notice that I spin out MUCH sooner than my friends when descending the mountain and can't physically make the bike go any faster in order to keep up with them.
2009-06-04 11:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
I have had triples and compacts and I'm a chick too. When I started triple was good for me as I sort of sucked on the bike and it gave me more gears going up hill. Downside to triples is they are finicky and drop the chain a lot. I've discussed this with probably 15 different bike mechanics and biker type folks..they agree they are finicky others say they just aren't adjusted right. I had 5-6 folks try and adjust my derailuer so it wouldn't drop the chain and never helped. Could have been I was new to cycling and wasn't shifting smart.

Now I have compact cranks on all my bikes and drop my chain maybe once a year and am considering switching my tri bike to standard crank based on my cycling style and running out of gears doing low cadence work (something you will probably never do). Compact or a standard crank is much smoother shifting. Depends on your definition of hills, but I'd say compact with 12-27 on it works best for most chicks unless you are super strong or heavier and really new to endurance type sports. Weight makes a huge difference in how easy it is to climb hills.

Most bike shops will swap out parts even money so you don't want the 53-39 and get a compact 50-34 not extra charge or only the differential between the two if compact is more. Same with the cassette get the cassette that is better for you...12-27 for either bike.

Hope this makes sense and good luck!
2009-06-07 4:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
daijoubu - 2009-06-04 10:08 AM

To determine how fast you can go in a gear you need to calculate gear inches.  This is the number of inches the bike will move per revolution of the cranks in that gear.  It is the number of teeth in the front multiplied by the diameter of the rear wheel divided by the number of teeth in the back.  For example a 53-11 on a 700x23 tire will get you 53x26.3"/11 = 126.7" per rotation of the cranks.  Using the 39-25 on the same bike you get 39x26.3"/25 = 41" per revolution of the cranks.  Multiply by the rpm you pedal at to get inches per minute.  Beyond this you have to convince Obama to go metric because my head hurts trying to convert inches per minute to miles per hour at 8am.  



Thanks for the ideas!  But now- can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong with the math here?  I tried to follow the formula above, but all in metric:

53/11= 4.82 ratio.  On a 70 cm tire, that's 337.27 cm/ rotation.  At  100 rpm (for the sake of easy math), that's 337.27 meters/ minute.  x 60/1000 to convert to km/hr, gets me 20.24 km/hr.  Huh?  So slow.  Is there another measurement to consider?
2009-06-07 9:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
Just buy the normal 53/39 and get an extra junior cassete...14-27.  Its what I use when i ride (I have to For to USAC races anyhow)  I decided to change back to my original 11-25 for kansas 70.3 and less than 5 days later i switched back.  I do Spin out but then I can find the fastest position on my bike.  And when your already going 35+ on the bike it takes a lot more power to increase  1 mph than at 20 mph... Not worth it in my opinion.  But I love high cadences on the uphills, try to keep at 95+ even on the steepest of hills (20% +).  Also, for most people if you're going 30+ mph you're going to fast and you need to slow down.
2009-06-07 10:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
In my losing battle of trying to keep from getting old, I'm trying to stay ahead of my son in computer skills.  He is trying to program in Actionscript 3.0, so I had to get into computer shape.  As a result I made this little graphic.  You drag the little blue boxes up and down to change the gears and cadence.  The little 'moons' around each circle are supposed to represent the pedals and rear wheel.

Bicycle gears


2009-06-07 11:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
chayes - 2009-06-07 4:08 AM
daijoubu - 2009-06-04 10:08 AM

To determine how fast you can go in a gear you need to calculate gear inches.  This is the number of inches the bike will move per revolution of the cranks in that gear.  It is the number of teeth in the front multiplied by the diameter of the rear wheel divided by the number of teeth in the back.  For example a 53-11 on a 700x23 tire will get you 53x26.3"/11 = 126.7" per rotation of the cranks.  Using the 39-25 on the same bike you get 39x26.3"/25 = 41" per revolution of the cranks.  Multiply by the rpm you pedal at to get inches per minute.  Beyond this you have to convince Obama to go metric because my head hurts trying to convert inches per minute to miles per hour at 8am.  



Thanks for the ideas!  But now- can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong with the math here?  I tried to follow the formula above, but all in metric:

53/11= 4.82 ratio.  On a 70 cm tire, that's 337.27 cm/ rotation.  At  100 rpm (for the sake of easy math), that's 337.27 meters/ minute.  x 60/1000 to convert to km/hr, gets me 20.24 km/hr.  Huh?  So slow.  Is there another measurement to consider?

Gear inches is a system that assigns numerical measurements to bicycle gear ratios, to indicate how low or high a gear is.  Gear inches has no current physical significance; it corresponds to the diameter in inches of the main wheel.

To get your speed you need to consider the circumference of the wheel.  In your case just multiply the result by Π (pi ~ 3.14).

20.24 x 3.14 = 63.55 km/hr or ~39.49 mph.

2009-06-07 11:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
NeilsWheel - 2009-06-07 11:43 AM In my losing battle of trying to keep from getting old, I'm trying to stay ahead of my son in computer skills.  He is trying to program in Actionscript 3.0, so I had to get into computer shape.  As a result I made this little graphic.  You drag the little blue boxes up and down to change the gears and cadence.  The little 'moons' around each circle are supposed to represent the pedals and rear wheel.

Bicycle gears


I am a very visual person and while I understood the basics of the chain ring and cog ratios, it wasn't clear.  That graphic helped so much!  Thanks for sharing.
2009-06-07 8:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
NeilsWheel - 2009-06-07 10:43 AM In my losing battle of trying to keep from getting old, I'm trying to stay ahead of my son in computer skills.  He is trying to program in Actionscript 3.0, so I had to get into computer shape.  As a result I made this little graphic.  You drag the little blue boxes up and down to change the gears and cadence.  The little 'moons' around each circle are supposed to represent the pedals and rear wheel.

Bicycle gears


Very cool! THANKS!
2009-06-07 9:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
KathyG - 2009-06-04 10:49 AM I have had triples and compacts and I'm a chick too. When I started triple was good for me as I sort of sucked on the bike and it gave me more gears going up hill. Downside to triples is they are finicky and drop the chain a lot. I've discussed this with probably 15 different bike mechanics and biker type folks..they agree they are finicky others say they just aren't adjusted right. I had 5-6 folks try and adjust my derailuer so it wouldn't drop the chain and never helped. Could have been I was new to cycling and wasn't shifting smart.


Hmmm, I have a triple and have been riding it for a year (hand me down bike, wasn't necessarily my choice and I don't use the the smallest chain ring except for really bad days) and have only dropped my chain twice.  Albeit both at inopportune times but still only twice.

That being said, when I can finally afford a new bike I will be going with a compact double.  I often top out on down hills and can't get as much speed as I'd like. 
2009-06-07 9:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
[
To get your speed you need to consider the circumference of the wheel.  In your case just multiply the result by Π (pi ~ 3.14).

20.24 x 3.14 = 63.55 km/hr or ~39.49 mph.



Ah, OK, that really helps!  Does the length of the chain or the crank arm make any difference?  My instinct is no, but high school physics was a long time ago...


2009-06-07 9:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
chayes - 2009-06-07 9:15 PM

Does the length of the chain or the crank arm make any difference?  My instinct is no, but high school physics was a long time ago...


For the purposes of the above formula, the crank arm length doesn't make a difference.  Your speed won't change based on the length of the crank arms.

Now, the length WILL make a small difference in how much power is needed to rotate the cranks.  Think Archimedes and his lever.  A longer lever (crank arm) exerts more force.  Without doing the math I think that the difference from a 170mm crank arm and a 175mm would be ~3%-5%.  Changing crank lengths also needs adjustment to your bike fit.

Physics was a long time ago for me, too, so I apologize if my logic is not quite up to speed.
2009-06-10 7:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
OK, final question (I think)- am I right in saying that climbing a hill in 39/25 (with the double ring in the front) will be 35% harder than climbing in the 30/26?  That's the difference in their ratios.  I know the math is right, but are there any other factors to consider in how hard it will be to climb (bike weights are about equal).  
And that either one will be around twice as hard as the mountain bike I currently have, which in its lowest gear has a ratio under 1?
2009-06-10 7:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
chayes - 2009-06-04 10:05 AM
I'm looking to buy a road bike and I'm hoping someone can give me a clear explanation of how the crank set will affect the overall ride.  (sorry if my terminology is not all right- I'm still learning!)



Your terminology is fine; you used "affect" here appropriately. Thanks for that!
2009-06-10 8:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...

tmueller - 2009-06-07 9:40 PM
chayes - 2009-06-07 9:15 PM

Does the length of the chain or the crank arm make any difference?  My instinct is no, but high school physics was a long time ago...


For the purposes of the above formula, the crank arm length doesn't make a difference.  Your speed won't change based on the length of the crank arms.

Now, the length WILL make a small difference in how much power is needed to rotate the cranks.  Think Archimedes and his lever.  A longer lever (crank arm) exerts more force.  Without doing the math I think that the difference from a 170mm crank arm and a 175mm would be ~3%-5%.  Changing crank lengths also needs adjustment to your bike fit.

Physics was a long time ago for me, too, so I apologize if my logic is not quite up to speed.

I'm sorry but this answer is incorrect.  Generally your mixing up power and force.  For a given bike/rider/position you need exactly the same amount of power to go a given speed whether your cank arms are 150mm or  180mm.  What canges is the amount of instantanious force you need to apply to the pedal to achieve that power.  Essentially to achieve a given power at a given gear ratio with a longer crank arm you will be applying a lesser force over a longer pedal circumference.

2009-06-10 11:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
The first nomograph chart on this website can also be used to estimated Speed (mph) with a RPM, using known GI.

FWIW, I have a 53/39 with a 13-25 cassette.  I had a 12-23 but hardly ever used the 53/12 combo and shifted everything down one.  39/25 was OK for a good hilly ride, but barely adequate for two shortish 8 to 10% grades. If it was something I had to ride every week I'd probably go with a compact crank and 12/25. 


2009-06-10 12:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...
2009-06-10 12:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Can someone explain chain ring/ compact cranks...

COSkiGirl - 2009-06-07 7:12 PM
KathyG - 2009-06-04 10:49 AM I have had triples and compacts and I'm a chick too. When I started triple was good for me as I sort of sucked on the bike and it gave me more gears going up hill. Downside to triples is they are finicky and drop the chain a lot. I've discussed this with probably 15 different bike mechanics and biker type folks..they agree they are finicky others say they just aren't adjusted right. I had 5-6 folks try and adjust my derailuer so it wouldn't drop the chain and never helped. Could have been I was new to cycling and wasn't shifting smart.


Hmmm, I have a triple and have been riding it for a year (hand me down bike, wasn't necessarily my choice and I don't use the the smallest chain ring except for really bad days) and have only dropped my chain twice.  Albeit both at inopportune times but still only twice.

That being said, when I can finally afford a new bike I will be going with a compact double.  I often top out on down hills and can't get as much speed as I'd like. 

I've got to go with Kathy on this one. My triple is finicky and has never really worked right. Glad yours works, but for others they are definitely finicky.

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