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You can buy speed (Page 2)
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 2009-06-27 3:37 PM in reply to: #2247001 |
Master 2460   |  Subject: RE: You can buy speedI got over 7 mph. in one fell swoop by going from a 33lb mtn bike to a Cervelo P2C. For real. |
| 2009-06-27 5:03 PM in reply to: #2247245 |
Master 1810   Morse Lake, Noblesville, Indiana | Subject: RE: You can buy speed PennState - 2009-06-27 1:50 PM tjtryon - 2009-06-27 12:16 PM Best bang for the buck on buying speed - Hire a coach! That will give you the best improvement. Please don't take this the wrong way, as coaching is very important... but it is pretty funny when someone says "Hire a coach! That will give you the best improvement"... and then his sig line is "Coach Tryon"  I know you didn't mean it that way... just came across funny. I did that on purpose, not to offer my services, but offer another option to buying speed that will give you more of a increase in your performance. Yes, I thought it was funny myself after I saw the post as well. Out of everything you can buy for your triathlon "experience", the only thing that will actually increase your performance is to enhance the "motor". Yes, a tri bike will help you cheat the wind, a wetsuit will make you more boyant and easier to go through the water, but the best way to actually increase performance (measured by efficiency or speed) is to train correctly. Everything else is an "aid" to help you maximize the amount of effort you can do, but training is going to increase the effort you can do. Ask Bear how to get faster on the bike. He'll tell you "Ride Lots". I think his quote is 100 miles per week. Ask a runner how to get faster, they will tell you to run lots. Same thing for swimming. Can you properly train without a coach? Yes. There are many "canned" plans, great books on the subject, and lots of resources out there for a self coached individual. Most of those plans and books are developed by a coach, so you should be good as far as getting a training plan that will help you get better. The main thing they lack is accountability. A good coach will hold you accountable for all practices you do properly, for all mornings you need to get up at dark-30 to go run, for all choclate sundays you've eaten, as well as all the practices you've blown off because they are "inconvenient". Attempting to strictly follow a canned plan is pretty much setting yourself up for failure. Consider a 16 week plan to help you bridge the distance from Sprint to Olympic training - 16 weeks = 112 days. Plan for 2 days off per week, you have a plan that requires 80 days of sticking to a strict regimin of training. If you are sick on 1 day, or can't train due to family obligations, you are no longer utilizing that plan, and can be missing out on a workout that will build for something 2-3 weeks out. Can you just swap days? Sure. Is that the correct thing to do? Maybe. If you understand the principals of the training plan, and understand what each workout is to acomplish, you can make some fantastic customizations to fit your own personal training needs. If you are the average Joe, most likely you have never had the correct training on the principals necessary to adjust these plans properly. I like this quote from Coach Gordo: "Once you have committed, paid your cash, built the season up... do the program. This sounds easy, but in fact, many people second guess their coach and adjust the plan. There should be a reason behind every workout. Coaches should have the ability to create and enhance the ability of an athlete in their ability to achieve their goals. The power of belief is one of the most powerful forces in life. The best coaches, friends and training partners all share a unified belief in the ability of the athlete. People that do not serve this power of belief are best avoided. In my opinion, creating and enhancing the power of belief is the central role of the coach. It is also the most important attribute for success in ironman distance racing. Due to their experience, coaches should have the ability to provide the athlete with a structured environment that will enable them to move safely and consistently towards their goals. Structure gives the athlete a feeling of control and confidence – thereby strengthening the power of belief as well as increasing the probability of success. |
| 2009-06-27 5:13 PM in reply to: #2247378 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: You can buy speed agarose2000 - 2009-06-27 3:37 PM I got over 7 mph. in one fell swoop by going from a 33lb mtn bike to a Cervelo P2C. For real. Not quite the same as going from one road bike to another. Though I bet the difference between my MTB and my tri bike wouldn't be 7mph on the same time trial course. More like 4 or 5. Oh, and the weight isn't the deciding difference, norare the frames for that matter. It's the different riding positions. Edited by the bear 2009-06-27 5:14 PM |
| 2009-06-27 5:24 PM in reply to: #2247001 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: You can buy speed I submit that you bought all that improvement with the new bike. Aside from the obvious physic improvements, less drag, better aero position, lighter weight, smoother shifting, tighter components, you bought a powerful motivational tool! Nothing is quite as fun as getting to know a new bike! During the early courtship, you take her out at every opportunity you can! You keep her finely tuned and address her every squeak and creak. And then there is this, you EXPECT you are going to be faster on your new bike and this becomes a self-fulfiling prophecy. Whether you realize it or not, you will push just a little harder and probably not even realize you are pushing harder becuase of the euphoria of your new relationship. :-) So don't listen to the pedantic posts telling you why you didn't buy speed. You DID buy speed! Good job! ~Mike |
| 2009-06-27 5:31 PM in reply to: #2247001 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: You can buy speed Sorry if this is been suggested but I am too lazy to read the entire thread OP - yes you can buy some speed, but most gains will come from 1) fitness, 2) better CdA (mainly position which add to the bike+wheels+helmet eqaution) lower Crr (good tire choice) and 3) weather conditions (low pressure, wind, etc). Unless you have a powermeter and know the coniditions on the time trial (from last Nov and today) to compare, it is very difficult to quantify what made you faster. The new bike probably helped but who knows how much, prob not as much as you think... |
 2009-06-27 5:36 PM in reply to: #2247469 |
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| 2009-06-27 5:37 PM in reply to: #2247478 |
| Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: You can buy speed the bear - 2009-06-27 5:13 PM agarose2000 - 2009-06-27 3:37 PM I got over 7 mph. in one fell swoop by going from a 33lb mtn bike to a Cervelo P2C. For real. Not quite the same as going from one road bike to another. Though I bet the difference between my MTB and my tri bike wouldn't be 7mph on the same time trial course. More like 4 or 5. Oh, and the weight isn't the deciding difference, norare the frames for that matter. It's the different riding positions.
I don't agree with this at all. I'd guess 75% of the gain from a mtn bike to a tri bike is the wheels/tires. I think dropping 15 lbs is significant too.
~Mike |
| 2009-06-27 5:48 PM in reply to: #2247506 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: You can buy speed PennState - 2009-06-27 5:36 PM You may see may as 'anti-coaching' as I have not agreed with everything you have said. But that is not the truth. I have used and will again hire a coach. I think they CAN be a good investment. I agree, coaching is not for everyone, not every athlete needs one and many can be succeed with self-coached or even with general plans if they know their bodies and understand what they need to doand are consistent. Like with everything a coach will help if it suits your needs/personality and if you get a good coach of course But... I see personal commitment (time in the saddle, running or swimming) as the first priority. I feel it trumps everything else... including aero bikes, wheels, coaches, wetsuits etc. OP - Sorry for the hijack... |
| 2009-06-27 6:39 PM in reply to: #2247490 |
| Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: You can buy speed Rogillio - 2009-06-27 5:24 PM I submit that you bought all that improvement with the new bike. Aside from the obvious physic improvements, less drag, better aero position, lighter weight, smoother shifting, tighter components, you bought a powerful motivational tool! Nothing is quite as fun as getting to know a new bike! During the early courtship, you take her out at every opportunity you can! You keep her finely tuned and address her every squeak and creak. And then there is this, you EXPECT you are going to be faster on your new bike and this becomes a self-fulfiling prophecy. Whether you realize it or not, you will push just a little harder and probably not even realize you are pushing harder becuase of the euphoria of your new relationship. :-) So don't listen to the pedantic posts telling you why you didn't buy speed. You DID buy speed! Good job! ~Mike Be careful of the folks that push their opinion as fact, as well, as they've been very wrong before. Next they'll be telling you about 80-mile starvation rides, and insisting it trains the body's ability to use food. I'll take pedantiic over uninformed every day. I would submit a tuneup and aerobars woul have bought him just as much speed at a much cheaper price. Lighter weight and smoother shifting components add little if any speed on a time trial course. And, I already accounted for the attitude enhancement in my intial post. I'm not denying he bought speed, i'm just saying he didn't get as much for his money as he thinks he did.  Rogillio - 2009-06-27 5:37 PM the bear - 2009-06-27 5:13 PM agarose2000 - 2009-06-27 3:37 PM I got over 7 mph. in one fell swoop by going from a 33lb mtn bike to a Cervelo P2C. For real. Not quite the same as going from one road bike to another. Though I bet the difference between my MTB and my tri bike wouldn't be 7mph on the same time trial course. More like 4 or 5. Oh, and the weight isn't the deciding difference, norare the frames for that matter. It's the different riding positions.
I don't agree with this at all. I'd guess 75% of the gain from a mtn bike to a tri bike is the wheels/tires. I think dropping 15 lbs is significant too.
~Mike Again, you would be wrong unless he's coming from knobby tires. Wrong again about the weight as well unless there are significant hills involve. Edited by the bear 2009-06-27 6:45 PM |
| 2009-06-27 7:33 PM in reply to: #2247577 |
| Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: You can buy speed the bear - 2009-06-27 6:39 PM Rogillio - 2009-06-27 5:24 PM I submit that you bought all that improvement with the new bike. Aside from the obvious physic improvements, less drag, better aero position, lighter weight, smoother shifting, tighter components, you bought a powerful motivational tool! Nothing is quite as fun as getting to know a new bike! During the early courtship, you take her out at every opportunity you can! You keep her finely tuned and address her every squeak and creak. And then there is this, you EXPECT you are going to be faster on your new bike and this becomes a self-fulfiling prophecy. Whether you realize it or not, you will push just a little harder and probably not even realize you are pushing harder becuase of the euphoria of your new relationship. :-) So don't listen to the pedantic posts telling you why you didn't buy speed. You DID buy speed! Good job! ~Mike Be careful of the folks that push their opinion as fact, as well, as they've been very wrong before. Next they'll be telling you about 80-mile starvation rides, and insisting it trains the body's ability to use food. I'll take pedantiic over uninformed every day. I would submit a tuneup and aerobars woul have bought him just as much speed at a much cheaper price. Lighter weight and smoother shifting components add little if any speed on a time trial course. And, I already accounted for the attitude enhancement in my intial post. I'm not denying he bought speed, i'm just saying he didn't get as much for his money as he thinks he did. Rogillio - 2009-06-27 5:37 PM the bear - 2009-06-27 5:13 PM agarose2000 - 2009-06-27 3:37 PM I got over 7 mph. in one fell swoop by going from a 33lb mtn bike to a Cervelo P2C. For real. Not quite the same as going from one road bike to another. Though I bet the difference between my MTB and my tri bike wouldn't be 7mph on the same time trial course. More like 4 or 5. Oh, and the weight isn't the deciding difference, norare the frames for that matter. It's the different riding positions.
I don't agree with this at all. I'd guess 75% of the gain from a mtn bike to a tri bike is the wheels/tires. I think dropping 15 lbs is significant too.
~Mike Again, you would be wrong unless he's coming from knobby tires. Wrong again about the weight as well unless there are significant hills involve. OMG Bear, you were writting that about yourself I hope! You put all these numbers which are totally guesses and your opinion and state them like they are facts! I'm not 'pushing' my opion, just offering it. You are the only one spouting data and numbers like you've done extensive testing and you are a renound expert on biking. I was trying to encourage the OP. If he thinks he got speed for his money, then I'll agree with him. He may have gotten more speed from the phychological aspects than from a mechanical differences but so what, he got faster with a new/better bike. I'll take encouragement over lectures. The mountain bikes I've seen have big, fat, low-pressur, knobby wheels. There is no way "riding position" is going to account for 7 mph! I'm not even gonna argue this cause your statement is just ridiculous. You seem to be hung up on my ironman training. Get over it. It worked. If you ever do an IM, maybe it will work for you too. :-) ~Mike |
| 2009-06-27 8:04 PM in reply to: #2247001 |
| Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: You can buy speed A lot of timse things work in spite of misconceptions and lack of knowledge, not because of it. If I ever did an Ironman (and as yet have no desire to plod through one, as so many here do) I would take a lot more time to research the aspects before implementing them in my training. I guess people can convince themselves of almost anything, Good luck buying that speed folks! Edited by the bear 2009-06-27 8:11 PM |
| 2009-06-27 8:29 PM in reply to: #2247695 |
| Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: You can buy speed the bear - 2009-06-27 8:04 PM A lot of timse things work in spite of misconceptions and lack of knowledge, not because of it. If I ever did an Ironman (and as yet have no desire to plod through one, as so many here do) I would take a lot more time to research the aspects before implementing them in my training. I guess people can convince themselves of almost anything, Good luck buying that speed folks!
Why do you have to belittle other people's accomplishments? You could have easily made your point without adding the snide "as so many here do". cur·mudg·eon (kr-mjn) n. An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions; irritating and difficult to deal with. Noun a bad-tempered or mean person [origin unknown] noun a surly, ill-mannered, bad-tempered person; cantankerous fellow Resident curmudgeon? Hmmm, maybe that's funny....just not adjectives I aspire to be associated with. But I do appreciate your "truth in advertising" Bear. To the OP....you are right to be proud of your new bike and the gains you made in performance! I appeciate the spirit and intent of your post and I totally agree that a new/better bike will make you faster...for a variety of reasons. ~Mike Edited by Rogillio 2009-06-27 8:33 PM |
| 2009-06-27 8:37 PM in reply to: #2247740 |
| Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: You can buy speed Whoa! I'm not sure how that belittles anyone's accomplishment, unless that's what they did and they're not happy with it. Plenty of folks here go out and complete an Ironman, 15, 17 hours, and are perfectly happy with it. No problem there whatsoever. Personally it wouldn't be enough for me, one of the many reasons I haven't attempted one is I haven't the time or inclination to do it right. I've said that every time the subject has come up. Doing it "not right" isn't worth the effort for me. Edited by the bear 2009-06-27 8:43 PM |
| 2009-06-27 8:41 PM in reply to: #2247740 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: You can buy speed Rogillio - 2009-06-27 8:29 PM The pot calling the kettle back: "So don't listen to the pedantic posts telling you why you didn't buy speed."Why do you have to belittle other people's accomplishments? You could have easily made your point without adding the snide... In your opinion some of the posts were pedantic, IMO they were telling it as it is, while the OP bought some speed it is unrealistic (and frankly impossible) to assume all came from the bike. Still you felt the need to add a jab because you didn't agree with those stating the obvious... |
| 2009-06-27 8:51 PM in reply to: #2247755 |
| Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: You can buy speed JorgeM - 2009-06-27 8:41 PM Rogillio - 2009-06-27 8:29 PM The pot calling the kettle back: "So don't listen to the pedantic posts telling you why you didn't buy speed."Why do you have to belittle other people's accomplishments? You could have easily made your point without adding the snide... In your opinion some of the posts were pedantic, IMO they were telling it as it is, while the OP bought some speed it is unrealistic (and frankly impossible) to assume all came from the bike. Still you felt the need to add a jab because you didn't agree with those stating the obvious... Now you just hush your pedantic self there, fellow. Next thing we know, you're going to be throwing out some of thsoe sci-en-ti-fic studies that you're so famous for looking up, just to confuse us southern boys. |
| 2009-06-27 8:51 PM in reply to: #2247001 |
| Subject: RE: You can buy speed wow, is everyone tapering this week? |
| 2009-06-27 8:52 PM in reply to: #2247001 |
| Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: You can buy speed Nah, just too hot to be training. Unless you're into those sissy water sports. |
| 2009-06-27 8:52 PM in reply to: #2247751 |
| Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: You can buy speed the bear - 2009-06-27 8:37 PM Whoa! I'm not sure how that belittles anyone's accomplishment, unless that's what they did and they're not happy with it. Plenty of folks here go out and complete an Ironman, 15, 17 hours, and are perfectly happy with it. No problem there whatsoever. Personally it wouldn't be enough for me, one of the many reasons I haven't attempted one is I haven't the time or inclination to do it right. I've said that every time the subject has come up. Doing it "not right" isn't worth the effort for me.
Well I completed my fist IM in 16 hrs and my second in 14.5 and I guess one could characterize those times as 'plodding'....guess I didn't have time to 'do it right' as you say....but I guess I figute the first IM was training for the second and the second was training for the 3rd...maybe someday I won't "plod" along. ~Mike |
| 2009-06-27 8:53 PM in reply to: #2247767 |
| Subject: RE: You can buy speed the bear - 2009-06-27 6:52 PM Nah, just too hot to be training. Unless you're into those sissy water sports. heh. you said water sports. don't get the thread pulled bear |
| 2009-06-27 8:55 PM in reply to: #2247755 |
| Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: You can buy speed JorgeM - 2009-06-27 8:41 PM Rogillio - 2009-06-27 8:29 PM The pot calling the kettle back: "So don't listen to the pedantic posts telling you why you didn't buy speed."Why do you have to belittle other people's accomplishments? You could have easily made your point without adding the snide... In your opinion some of the posts were pedantic, IMO they were telling it as it is, while the OP bought some speed it is unrealistic (and frankly impossible) to assume all came from the bike. Still you felt the need to add a jab because you didn't agree with those stating the obvious...
You are right and I appologize (w/o caveat) for the pedantic characterization. ~Mike |
| 2009-06-27 8:57 PM in reply to: #2247001 |
| Expert 657 Portland | Subject: RE: You can buy speed Im eating Milkyway bars on my long rides this year instead of gel or Carbopro, which I had in the past. It is far cheaper, extremely more pleasant, my performance gains have been steady and no bonking!!! Some times the cheap stuff is better! |
| 2009-06-27 9:02 PM in reply to: #2247777 |
| Master 1853 syracuse | Subject: RE: You can buy speed serious? I thought of trying sneakers bars.....gels be expensive!! thinking of buying those mini bar sneakers....probably get a whole big ole bag for a few bucks..... although I tried Heed Perpretuem (sp?) today for the first time and really really liked it...caffe late... whats this got to do with the post, BTW.... anyway, carry on.... |
| 2009-06-27 9:02 PM in reply to: #2247777 |
| Subject: RE: You can buy speed MikeJ - 2009-06-27 6:57 PM Im eating Milkyway bars on my long rides this year instead of gel or Carbopro, which I had in the past. It is far cheaper, extremely more pleasant, my performance gains have been steady and no bonking!!! Some times the cheap stuff is better! But are you buying chocolate speed? |
| 2009-06-27 9:05 PM in reply to: #2247768 |
| Expert 657 Portland | Subject: RE: You can buy speed Rogillio - 2009-06-27 9:52 PM the bear - 2009-06-27 8:37 PM Whoa! I'm not sure how that belittles anyone's accomplishment, unless that's what they did and they're not happy with it. Plenty of folks here go out and complete an Ironman, 15, 17 hours, and are perfectly happy with it. No problem there whatsoever. Personally it wouldn't be enough for me, one of the many reasons I haven't attempted one is I haven't the time or inclination to do it right. I've said that every time the subject has come up. Doing it "not right" isn't worth the effort for me.
Well I completed my fist IM in 16 hrs and my second in 14.5 and I guess one could characterize those times as 'plodding'....guess I didn't have time to 'do it right' as you say....but I guess I figute the first IM was training for the second and the second was training for the 3rd...maybe someday I won't "plod" along. ~Mike Yes..most of us would characterize those times as plodding (sorry). But hey, I still think it was a huge accomplishment for you and you should be very proud of it, regardless of what sum of us less sensitive jerks say. |
| 2009-06-27 9:07 PM in reply to: #2247784 |
| Expert 657 Portland | Subject: RE: You can buy speed cusetri - 2009-06-27 10:02 PM serious? I thought of trying sneakers bars.....gels be expensive!! thinking of buying those mini bar sneakers....probably get a whole big ole bag for a few bucks..... although I tried Heed Perpretuem (sp?) today for the first time and really really liked it...caffe late... whats this got to do with the post, BTW.... anyway, carry on.... Yeah, its great! I refrigerate the bars, so they dont get too melted on the ride. I eat half a bar every 45 minutes or so. Ive done some pretty intense interval ride up to 3 hrs without any problems. Its the bomb! |
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