Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance (Page 5)

I kinda get it. I did crossfit for 12-18 months. It becomes your whole being. You train, you go to their seminars, you buy their clothes, and most importantly, you buy into their beliefs. 100%. You actually believe they found something that is better than every other form of training, and 100% works for 100% of people. It never occurs to you that crossfit is not ideal in any and every situation. I hope these people finish strong, and get a decent result. All I know is that after all that time, training 4 to 5 days a week, I still couldn't run a 10k. I hope I was the exception, not the rule.

Well, CFE may have found an athlete that might have success with their system.  Though with a 2:49 open marathon time and an big base I'd still say he's succeeding despite CFE, not because of it.  The dude has good genes, that's for sure.  I'd wager that if he cut the CFE based training he'd have no problem KQing. . .if that's his goal.  It was sad to see his run splits climb a consistent 30sec per mile each split.  Either way, congrats, he stuck to his guns and had success.  An 11:36 is a great time.

http://lessmileagemorecrossfit.blogspot.com/

"3) Strength prevails... I can truly attest that the ONLY way I can improve on my time will be to get stronger. It was clearly not a CARDIOVASCULAR thing out there. People asking me weren't you out of breath? Its not about that in the least. Your legs feel like logs coming off the bike. On the run, all I focused on was good posture and ACTIVE pulls. You ask anyone out there that day how I looked and the they'd tell you the mid-line stability was there. It was my legs. Once those get STRONGER its on."

If you haven't figured it out from my previous posts, I am a big fan of CrossFit and believe that it can (and often should) provide an excellent foundation for nearly any physical undertaking, including Ironman tris.  That being said, I'm doing to have to agree with gonwalkabout03--with a 2:49 open marathon, an 11:36 IM probably is not maximizing Jeff's potential.

Further, the "more strength is needed" is kinda the CFE party line, but I'm going to say in Jeff's assessment that that's simply ridiculous.  Most definitions of strength (even in the CF world) is basically "how heavy" can you lift.  Well, anyone from Westside barbell, anyone in the NFL, any WWE wrestler can certainly out squat, out deadlift Jeff (the IMWI finisher and blogger who's post we're discussing).  Would they have gone faster?  No way.  So if they're stronger than him, and they cannot outperform in this scenario, then how exactly does the logic flow that getting stronger is going to bring success?

What he seems to be lacking in CF terms is stamina, which comes down to energy production and delivery systems.  Unfortunately for the CFE paradigm, critical components to that effort are capilary density and mitochondrial density, which are built doing LSD, sub-threshold workouts.  (A general overview is found here--feel free do to more research)  And CF/CFE by their very definition cannot accomplish that.

I've been training for IMAZ.

Usually do:

Su-Long ride

Mon- WOD/Run intervals

Tuesday-Strength specific lift/Swim intervals

Wednesday- Bike Intervals/WOD

Thursday- WOD

Fri- Long run (max 2 hours or 13.1)

Sat- Rest/Yoga/Metcon

I'm not here to spam nor do I think CFE is the right answer for everyone. As someone who loves crossfit/strength train/speed workouts, CFE keeps things fresh for me and the interval work has improved my s/b/r times and improved my overall physical condition.

Hmmm... With a website called "Beginner Triathlete," one would imagine the users would be friendlier or more encouraging of new users.

I'm not an ironman, so I can't weigh in on CF & CFE for IM training.  Though, here in San Francisco, I workout with many Ironman triathletes in my weekly CF and CFE classes.  None of them solely train with it.  From many posts I've read, CF & CFE are just completely misunderstood in the triathlon community.  We have an incredible CrossFit gym here in San Francisco, and many triathletes, runners, cyclists, swimmers, rowers, you name it, train there a few times a week.  It's a great community, as the triathletes and CrossFitters of San Francisco encourage each other as opposed to put each other down.

Just my two cents.

Shane, I don't disagree with you at all.  When I first started triathlon, this site was an enormous help to me.  It stil is for many things.  However, disagreements backed by evidence are more than appropriate.  Saying things simply to laugh at others or put others down is not.

How did Evan do? n=1?

So you're training for IMAZ, and you only run twice week?  Are you planning on walking the entire course?

i think that's the point of the discussion...

see subject line of OP...

Yes I can see the subject line and read the entire thread.  It still baffles me that anyone thinks they can run a marathon without actually running.

You may have read it, but it appears you did not comprehend it.  I have a friend that ran a marathon on CF only--not CFE.  His longest training run, were some 800's in various WODs.

And his result:  a 3:20 marathon. 

Yes, obviously a genetic gifted individual, but the point remains his CF training and genetic makeup enabled him to run a pretty darn quick marathon with no, as in ZERO, ZILCH, ZIP, NOTHING, NADA, run specific training.  So yeah, some people think it can be done.  You're welcome to think whatever you like.

A couple questions / points:

1. Did your friend have any kind of a running background at all?
2. Was this his first marathon?
3. If it wasn't, how did this performance compare with previous races with traditional training?
4. 3:20 is an impressive time, but would he have been faster or slower following a more traditional approach?
5. IMO, running 800's, depending on the frequency, pace, rest interval, and number of intervals could be significant, so I question how this qualifies as "ZERO, ZILCH, ZIP, NOTHING, NADA, run specific training".
6. Based on the limited information, I'd agree he's a genetically gifted individual.  This doesn't mean his path is a good choice for the majority of marathon runners.

I comprehend just fine.  Sounds like a one in a million outlier to me.  That is a training plan that would fail for the majority of people, and would end up getting them injured.

But congrats on your friend's performance.  I bet if he actually trained to run a marathon he could BQ, being so genetically gifted.

I did not take any absolute stance that said one could not run a marathon by training only 2x a week.  But I do think most people will either run poorly (not to their potential) and/or get injured by only running 2x a week.  Running a marathon is nothing special.  I think most people can claw their way through it on little training.  The question is how they will perform during the race and how they will feel afterward.

I also made no reference to LSD training.  I think you are mixing my post with other posts.

However I do subscribe to the "run mostly easy, sometimes hard" approach to endurance running, and it works for me for marathons and ultras, as well as for 5 and 10Ks.

I am less concerned about the lack of running than I am the swim once a week, since this is the discipline where people die. Of course maybe someone can tell me how CF improves open water swim technique.  Perhaps handstand pushups?

Not sure if you're being serious or snide.  Obviously CF doesn't improve your technique.  But it certainly can improve your ability to tolerate the muscular and cardiovascular demands.

Without going into details or excuses for an expected DNF at IMWI a few weeks ago, I decided upfront it was better than a DNS.  So I showed up having swum exactly once in the previous 4 months, and was out of the water in 1:21 and feeling good.  No way I could have done that without CF.

On a completely different note, came across this article that I thought folks here might find interesting:  http://running.competitor.com/2012/09/features/six-ways-crossfit-ca...

Pancake, you bring some common sense to the table. . .I like that.  However, I'm done with T.J. Murphy shilling for B. Mac and CFE in Competitor articles.  (Even though I KINDA agree with some of his stuff.)  If he wants to say that CrossFit can offer something, sure, I'll accept that.  But I'm of the firm belief that Mackenzie is trying nothing more than to make money by selling an entire new market (endurance athletes) on CrossFit being the "be-all end-all" of training (and thus selling his seminars and certifications, which is how CrossFit HQ manages to be profitable.)

Have you ever heard of Bob Seebohar?  If you want to hear a real, credentialed expert speak on the subject of weight training, and especially nutrition (metabolic efficiency) instead of some bro-snake wearing boardshorts, look him up.  Read his book.  Even better, attend a seminar where he's a presenter.  Now, just like B. Mac, there's a chunk of the triathlon world that doesn't agree with him (well, there's actually a WHOLE lot more of the tri world that agrees with him over Mackenzie), but I had a certain amount of success with his program, and he's the dietitian for the olympic tri team.

For a more realistic message about CrossFit and running from the same website:

http://running.competitor.com/2012/07/training/can-crossfit-make-you-a-better-runner_54325

By this guy:

Jeff Gaudette

Jeff has been running for 13 years, at all levels of the sport. He was a two time Division-I All-American in Cross Country while at Brown University and competed professionally for 4 years after college for the Hansons-Brooks Distance Project. Jeff is certified by the USATF, the RRCA and has been featured in Running Times magazine, Endurance Magazine, as well as numerous local magazine fitness columns.

Compare those credentials to these:

TJ Murphy

T.J. Murphy is a 2:38 marathoner and five-time Ironman finisher, he is the former editorial director of Triathlete Magazine and Inside Triathlon. His writing has also appeared in Outside Magazine and Runner’s World.

Or these:

The headquarters for Crossfit Endurance is a two-bedroom house, just a few blocks off Interstate 405, in an Orange County suburb. Brian MacKenzie, the founder of Crossfit Endurance, lives and works here. There are whiteboards throughout his home and garage, and MacKenzie even uses the glass of his dining room table to scrawl notes, workouts and diagrams. A bike is set up on a stationary trainer in the family room, a treadmill resides in the living room, and his “office” is a broad desk piled with books, magazines and a desktop Macintosh. It is through this computer that he does the bulk of his communicating with what has become a loose-knit network of coaches and endurance athletes around the world.

The heart of MacKenzie’s laboratory is in the garage. The cardio gear includes a Versaclimber, a rowing machine, a watt-based bicycle ergometer and another treadmill. Against the rear wall is a squat rack with piles of barbell weights on either side. Kettlebells—including one in the shape of a skull—are scattered throughout. A pull-up bar hangs from the ceiling, as does a climbing rope.

When I visit MacKenzie, he is wearing board shorts, a black T-shirt and black leather Chuck Taylor high-tops. Built like an MMA fighter, the sinewy 190-pound MacKenzie is not your average ultrarunner.

Exactly, I'm pretty sure he hasn't finished an ultra (or anything) since he started following his own training program.  Just sayin'.

Also, sorry about you're DNF pancake, but way to toe the line though.  I went into the Leadman 125 at Bend very undertrained and nearly had a DNF. . .so I can feel ya.  I was maybe getting in 4 or so hours a week and zero running between my Hood to Coast and LM.  Needless to say, after what I thought was biking within my limits, I got one of the worst side-stitches know to man during the "run".  I will say about myself what I think whenever I see CFE athletes DNF, "I got out of the race what I put in."

Sorry if this was explained somewhere else, but why did you DNF?