Questions about learning flip turns (Page 2)

I'm not sure where I read the OP (or anyone else) suggested to give up working on technique to work on flip turns...  Maybe I missed that.

Edited by Aikidoman 2009-12-09 1:42 PM

A couple of things that are easy to do but that I wish someone had told me when I was mastering flip turns 18 years ago).

#1 your arms don't move (huge progress when I grasped this concept).  When you glide into the wall following your last stroke, palms are up towards ceiling and relaxed at sides.  After your body rotates, you are now on your back, feet touching wall, hands/arms have not moved and are now pointed in the right direction.

#2 Push off on your back and twist once your in motion.

#3 Your head leads the way, when you are just about ready to rotate, flip your head crisply (in combination with the final dolhpin kick) and everything will flow.

I see no reason not to train this way, if you are afraid that you will use the wall as a crutch, then soft push and glide out less.  In the end you will go faster and get more yards in the time used (and that is the name of the game right)

for one, it doesnt take much time at all.  after two weeks, you should have it down, if you are swimming 3x per week.

also, flip turns will actually teach you better technique.  I am the most streamlined, long and tight after I flip turn, this allows me to "feel" whats it's like to be streamlined.   

in the end, its personal preference what you do, but thinking there is no benefit/translation to being better in the open water is, IMO, not really correct.  Is it going to turn you into Michael Phelps? no.  will it make you a better swimmer?  yes.  how much and how fast is debatable, and seeing how some will spend $500 on a speedsuit to pick up 1 second/100, it may be worth exploring the improvements that could be had for free.

Edited by cusetri 2009-12-09 2:56 PM

x2, I don't see any harm in learning how to flip turn and when someone suggest they want to train like a swimmer, pure swimmers do flip turns. Flip turns actually afford an excellent opportunity to work on a streamlined body position and form coming off the wall.

I can't say I like this technique although I know it's done by many. Try being more on your side when you push off, not upside down. A fast and efficient flip turn is a combination of a tuck, shoulder roll, body rotation while rolling, planting feet on the wall, and pushing off bringing the body into a flat, face down position.

Edited by bryancd 2009-12-09 3:17 PM

I've swam with McCormack and Wendy Ingraham in my masters. When they stop doing flip turns because "it's not helpful to triathletes," I will.

It's (with all respect) ridiculous. the only way to simulate OW swimming is to do OW swimming. Otherwise, train in the pool like swimmers do (and I would argue that being a better pool swimmer makes you a better OW swimmer). But hey, what do I know. Everyone should do what they like.

Not even touching the kicking comment

I'm with Chris on this; with a few exceptions, the fastest triathlon swimmers are the fastest pool swimmers and the fastest pool swimmers do flip turns.

Further, when I'm swimming in the pool, my goal is not to breathe inside the flags and not to surface before the flags.  It is great to force me to stay relaxed while swimming and concentrate on a slow exhalation as opposed to one explosive breath before I roll.

As for kicking, my coach has kicking drills in almost every workout - including some IM kick sets

Shane

X2 - Flip turns will help you be a better OWS because they will help you be a better swimmer overall. There is a lot more that comes out of a flip turn than just a push off the wall. They help your balance in the water, the increase your "feel" for the water which increases your efficiency in the water which will make you faster with less effort. They keep you swimming at a continuous effort better than open turns or not pushing off the wall at all.

Mostly though, they help lower your swim golf score.

No one has disclosed the biggest benefit of flip turns. It gives you a moment's pause underwater, and you can check out the swim hottie in the next lane as she comes in for a turn..... or pushes off after a turn. Or so I've heard.

Actually, coaches are teaching their swimmers to come off on their backs and turn as you dolphin kick. Here's a clip of Phelps, he's just starting to turn on his side as he pushes off.

Michael Phelps Flip Turn

Another turn clip

Edited by rstocks3 2009-12-09 4:59 PM

I know, I'm so old school swimmer.

It's just my personal preference.  I'd just rather spend my effort/time/worry on working on technique and getting faster than worrying about flip-turns. It's not to say you can't focus on all these in a swim workout, but I'd just rather spend no time on flip-turns and the rest on everything else. I know that if I tried to learn flip-turns I would be taking time out of my workout to learn them and taking away from other aspects...might not be true for everyone tho.

Which is totally cool BUT you said you swim like a swimmer, but you don't as swimmers use flip turns as part of their swim training, not just to look all fancy.

Edited by bryancd 2009-12-09 6:05 PM

http://www.goswim.tv/entries/3425/freestyle---first-breath.html

heres that video I was referring to that may help the OP with breathing and flip turns....hope it helps

Can I hijack a bit? I know how to do flip turns......but I do not do them on a regular basis because they leave me feeling so breathless !! First 100m or so is ok..........but then I am just gasping.

Thoughts? Will it get easier over time? I really would love to incorporate them ..............

yes!!  just keep doing them.  key is to relax

Yes, it gets easier over time, in my experience.  I also was gasping and did them only occasionally at first, then I just forced myself to flip turn all the time, and for a while I often came up gasping and spluttering; now I don't.  I feel it is worth it, for many of the reasons mentioned above.

I'm a strong believer in the 6 session rule. It takes 6 sessions to learn a new technique. The first 2 are usually embarrassingly tough. The next 2 tend to be better. You start to become comfortable on the next 2. I was hesitant to relearn flip turns, ( I did them as a kid) thinking it would hurt my open water swim. Instead, my swimming has greatly improved after I started flipping again. The "swimmers" no longer make fun of my "Turtle Turns"

Just guessing here, but are you expelling all your breath keeping water out of your nose while you're upside down? It really doesn't take much of an exhale to keep the water out of your nose and having that air is nice as you glide out from the wall. If you were to watch my turn, I think you'd see a steady stream of bubbles from my nose the start of my turn until the start of my first breath.

ha ok, I guess minus the flip-turn I swim like a swimmer...i think. I remember the OP also posted that he wanted to learn flip-turns to get more power off the wall, but I get a lot of power off the wall with my non-flip turn...maybe there's a technique to it. Not sure...

Do you stop every quarter mile on the bike, forcing you to start from stratch from a speed/bike standpoint? What about the run?

To the OP and other comments:
Flip turns are beneficial on many levels. You are able to mantain pace easier, it helps your swim technique, teaches you breath control, etc. I have yet to hear a good reason to do open turns. When I do I will let everyone know.

Running out of breath on the flip turn is common but easy to fix. Get a good breath as you enter the turn and then blow out through your nose during the flip at a controlled release. Just forcing air out your nose will leave you out of breath in a hurry, so you need to control it so that just enough air comes out your nose that water doesn't get in. Once you've flipped over stop exhaling until you're about ready to take that first pull. Then release the rest of your air. 

A good strong push off the wall is important to maintain pace but also very important in understanding your own hydrodynamics. A good streamline off the wall is the same position you should be in on every stroke (with the exception that one arm is pulling/recovering). If you have a lousy streamline off the wall then you have a lousy glide/position while you swim. Working on one will help with the other. There's no need to have a huge kick off the wall, but a good streamline/kick combo helps maintain momentum to get you back up to pace. 

I think I may be fighting an uphill battle here and I am not saying that I am right, but to counter that, do you get a boost or sprint for a couple seconds every quarter mile when you're running or on the bike?  Of course not.  If I kick off of the wall in the pool, the moment from the push carries me at least 3-5 yards.  As a result, I would get less strokes in every pool length I do (yes, I know you want to minimize the number of strokes you do), but I don't see how that is going to help you in the open water.

When I become breathless because of using flip turns it is not actually DURING the turn that I have problems. The turn itself is ok, I have enough air until I pop up after the flags and take my first stroke. The problem I experience is more of a cumulative one. After using flip turns VS open turns for a few lengths I find I become more and more "hypoxic" as I continue to swim. When I do an open turn this does not happen.  Why do you suppose this is? How the heck do I fix it? 

Why is swimming  so d*mn hard?? Why the heck am I not "velogirl" ?

downhills :p

Besides downhill, when the winds are at your back.  :-)