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Questions about learning flip turns
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 2009-12-09 6:43 AM |
Master 2460   |  Subject: Questions about learning flip turnsI'm going to bite the bullet and finally learn these flip turns. I know that this will likely have little impact on my actual OWS race day performance, but it seems that now that I'm spending significant amounts of time in the pool, I really should swim like a swimmer. (Yes, also gradually learning backstroke and others.) Had a few flip turn questions - - On my fast sets, I feel that I run out of oxygen on flip turns. Part of this (most of it) is because of the exhale on the flip so water doesn't flood my sinuses. How do you improve this? - Still not sure how close to the wall to flip. Right now, am flipping right when my outstretched arm touches the wall. - Any good websites/videos online showing how to do it well, and drills for it? Thanks |
| 2009-12-09 7:16 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
Extreme Veteran 681  Mount Joy | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns Its hard to explain without actually seeing what your doing, but Ill try to help you out. If your running out of oxygen try breathing right before you flip, your mostly running out of oxygen because your havent developed the capacity in your lungs yet. (this will comes with time) The best thing I can tell you is to relax and not get paranoid about running out of breath. The way us swimmers hold our breath so long is because we are relaxed underwater and panicing, As for when to flip, I'm trying to think in my head when I flip because it has come so routine that I just know. But I would say slightly more than an arms length away. When you flip your knees should be bent at about a 90 degree angle when they come over the top and your feet hit the wall. When you come into the wall you want to pull through with your arm and tuck your head and flip all in one motion. your arms should be at your side as you flip over and then pull both upwards towards your head to give you that extra umph to get your legs over. then push off streamline. Thats about the best I can tell you. would be much easier to show you hahaa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyw4ftnyZ18&feature=PlayList&p=95C12951F2908524&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=9 there's a quick short video of Natalie Coughlin teaching flip turns, at least your get the idea, it takes practice |
| 2009-12-09 7:20 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
Master 1853 syracuse | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns agarose2000 - 2009-12-09 7:43 AM I'm going to bite the bullet and finally learn these flip turns. I know that this will likely have little impact on my actual OWS race day performance, but it seems that now that I'm spending significant amounts of time in the pool, I really should swim like a swimmer. (Yes, also gradually learning backstroke and others.) Had a few flip turn questions - - On my fast sets, I feel that I run out of oxygen on flip turns. Part of this (most of it) is because of the exhale on the flip so water doesn't flood my sinuses. How do you improve this? - Still not sure how close to the wall to flip. Right now, am flipping right when my outstretched arm touches the wall. - Any good websites/videos online showing how to do it well, and drills for it? Thanks dont be so sure about flips turns not improving OWS....I've spoken to plent of accomplished swimmers who would argue otherwise. with regards to water flooding your sinuses, just exhale out your nose and keep your mouth closed, should cure that.... with regards to when, just keep doing it, and eventually you will get a feel for it. I flip just as I cross the black T on the floor of pool. there are plenty of videos....I just searched youtube when I was learning. I have a pretty good video link that is at home, I will post later if I find it. pretty good drill on flip turns and breathing.... |
| 2009-12-09 7:59 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
Champion 7547 Albuquerque, New Mexico Bronze member | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns I'd usually try to take one last breath just before flipping and then my next breath on the first arm pull. With open turns, I'd take my first breath on the 4th pull. If you can touch the wall with your hand, you're probably waiting too long to start the turn. I usually start my slow-and-involved-flip at the end of the black line. One thing to consider is practicing flip turns on your cool-down set. That way, if you do ingest water, you're not affecting the rest of your swim workout and you can focus on the flip rather than a split-time. As you get better, add a few flips during warm-up. |
| 2009-12-09 8:06 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
| Extreme Veteran 502 Washington | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns If your hand is touching the wall you are too close. I think it's easier to do good flip turns when you are going faster, since you have more momentum to carry you into the wall as you flip. If you want to practice your flip turns, do a set of 50's, but start/finish at mid pool. That way you flip twice per 50 and can do it at a good clip. Edited by ionlylooklazy 2009-12-09 8:06 AM |
| 2009-12-09 8:35 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns i have a similar problem. never do flip turns because I feel that even if i take a breath before i do the flip turn and i feel like i am not relaxed enough and my HR just jumps thru the roof. |
| 2009-12-09 8:46 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
| Expert 626 | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns I'll second that about flip turns being easier with a little speed. Coach had us put on fins to learn. Seems not sensible to accelerate as a solid hard concrete wall is approaching your head, but it does help. As 99% of my swimming takes place in a pool vs a lake or whatever, figured I might as well be as good a pool swimmer as I can be and flip turns are part of that. Yes you will be in O2 debt but it gets better - maybe a physiological adaptation, maybe a psychological adjustment, maybe eventually flip turns become easier and there is less energy expenditure. Good luck. You seem to be quite determined about this swimming thing and that will get you what you want in the end |
| 2009-12-09 9:13 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns Definitely learn it! I did and my swimming improved dramatically. Mainly since I didn't have to break my sets every 25m. Some of the things I did (take them with a grain of salt, I'm by no means Michael Phelps) that might help. Running out of Oxygen - I take an extra breath on my last stroke before I flip, that helps a bunch. Also, I blow out air AS I'm flipping, but not in that "limbo" moment or two where you are about to push off the wall, then again before I take my next breath. (Not sure if that made sense) Flipping - I flip pretty close to the wall, I'd say between the end of the "T" and the edge. If I'm much farther back I risk not being close enough to kick off  Good luck, it's kind of like rollers... steep but fast learning curve. (imo that is) |
| 2009-12-09 9:27 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns I learned flip turns not too long ago. I think that doing them has helped my swimming, though my swimming needs a lot of help, so that's not saying much. What others have said: * arm touching wall is probably too close. (It would be for me;l I'm just outside that distance when I start flipping, ideally; it depends on how fast I'm going as well.) * it doesn't take much to prevent water getting in -- just a little pressure through the nose, not a huge expulsion of air. I can do that part now (I used to blow more or less everything out), but still have some variation in my ability to glide long and not breathe on my first stroke off the wall. Earlier in a set this is easier. Once I get winded, it is harder. * I used the video guide on BT: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=1388. I also found some videos on YouTube, but they said pretty much the same thing. |
| 2009-12-09 9:42 AM in reply to: #2550127 |
Expert 834 Medina, MN | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns Just a minor note - you should start a flip turn with both hands down at your sides. Then do a butterfly kick and simultaneously bend your elbows, pulling your hands up towards your head. As you're flipping, you should get your arms up to and above your head to push off. So really, your hands shouldn't be anywhere near the wall. But from a general distance point of view, you are too close and need to be flipping sooner. |
| 2009-12-09 10:08 AM in reply to: #2550127 |
| Master 2460 | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns Experior - 2009-12-09 9:27 AMI learned flip turns not too long ago. I think that doing them has helped my swimming, though my swimming needs a lot of help, so that's not saying much. Great video - I think that simple drill of doing flips near the wall and then practicing landing your feet on them is exactly what I had in mind to help me get a better feel of when to flip and not freaking out about approaching the wall. Good tips above from everyone - I'm looking forward to trying them out tonight!What others have said: * arm touching wall is probably too close. (It would be for me;l I'm just outside that distance when I start flipping, ideally; it depends on how fast I'm going as well.) * it doesn't take much to prevent water getting in -- just a little pressure through the nose, not a huge expulsion of air. I can do that part now (I used to blow more or less everything out), but still have some variation in my ability to glide long and not breathe on my first stroke off the wall. Earlier in a set this is easier. Once I get winded, it is harder. * I used the video guide on BT: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=1388. I also found some videos on YouTube, but they said pretty much the same thing. |
| 2009-12-09 10:11 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
Member 85 | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns The way I learned to flip turn was to break it down into segments. 1. Finish your last stroke before the wall and glide in with your arms at your sides. As you become more proficient, you'll start flipping before this stroke is all the way to your side, but while you're learning, it's easier. 2. Tuck your chin to your chest. 3. Bend over at the waist. This is where you should start breathing out. Not an explosive exhalation, but just a nice slow exhale. 4. Tumble and throw your hips at the wall. Your feet should make contact with the wall while you are in a sitting position. If you were too close to the wall, this is where you find out! If the pool has a low deck, I've ended up with my legs on top of the deck because I misjudged the wall. 5. Push off, you're done! As you get more comfortable, the steps will all blend into one fluid motion, but breaking it down while you're learning makes it easier. Good luck. |
| 2009-12-09 10:24 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
Expert 1099 Bedford, NH | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns My swim coach and I would argue that you should not do flip turns as a triathlete as I do not recommend getting a strong kick off the wall during training. There aren't going to be any walls for you to kick off of when your in the open water. When I do my turns in the pool, I keep my head under the water the entire time while I turn by body and try to push off from the wall as little as possible. Yes, this is obviously not as fast as the kick turn, but I feel you get more out of your workout and it more realistic for triathletes. What are people's thoughts on this? |
| 2009-12-09 10:38 AM in reply to: #2550329 |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns hockeyhands - 2009-12-09 11:24 AM My swim coach and I would argue that you should not do flip turns as a triathlete as I do not recommend getting a strong kick off the wall during training. There aren't going to be any walls for you to kick off of when your in the open water. When I do my turns in the pool, I keep my head under the water the entire time while I turn by body and try to push off from the wall as little as possible. Yes, this is obviously not as fast as the kick turn, but I feel you get more out of your workout and it more realistic for triathletes. What are people's thoughts on this? That isn't taking into consideration a large amount of sprints are in a pool. Also, for longer distance tri's... I'd argue that swimming continually (without those little breaks at the wall) is pretty important... but that's just my take. |
| 2009-12-09 10:44 AM in reply to: #2549722 |
| Lethbridge, Alberta Bronze member | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns When you start a flip, your hands should be at your sides. While you are going over, your hands should continue to point in the same direction that they did when you started, towards the other end of the pool. As you finish the flip, your hands are already extended overhead for a streamlined push off. Since you are not flailing your arms about, the flip has to be initiated with a bit of a dolphin kick and continued with a sharp bend at your waist while you tuck your legs and head in to rotate. You just need lots of practice to get the timing and distance sorted out. You don't even need a wall to practice flips. If you flip partway down a lane, or in open water, you just don't get the push off the wall. I think it may even help to learn to grab enough water to accelerate from a stop when you do this. |
| 2009-12-09 12:02 PM in reply to: #2549722 |
Master 2372 | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns There are good videos out there about the mechanics of flip turns. Where to start your turn, however, is something you do need to figure out. It has everything to do with how fast you are coming into the wall and how fast you can flip. The correct distance is found with repetition. I would, however, recommend as strongly as possible to start flipping from too far out and work your way in. You'll be able to find your "zone" pretty well from there. The first time you crack your heels on the end of the pool will be a not-so-gentle reminder of why being a tad too far out is the smart side of the error. Not that I've ever done that. |
| 2009-12-09 12:29 PM in reply to: #2549722 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns That little dolphin kick mentioned to initiate the flip was essential for me to get it down (plus bagging breathing every 3 strokes) I am new to the flip turn as well and am just accepting that getting the timing down better when swimming hard is just going to have to come with time. Often I get stuck where if I take that last breath, I'll be too close to the wall, and if I don't well I come up after the flip gasping for air.. just keep fighting through it though as there WILL be a time in OW where you will have to be able to shrug off missing a breath (getting swam over, etc...) focus on keeping form and you'll get over it. |
| 2009-12-09 12:37 PM in reply to: #2550329 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns hockeyhands - 2009-12-09 11:24 AM My swim coach and I would argue that you should not do flip turns as a triathlete as I do not recommend getting a strong kick off the wall during training. There aren't going to be any walls for you to kick off of when your in the open water. When I do my turns in the pool, I keep my head under the water the entire time while I turn by body and try to push off from the wall as little as possible. Yes, this is obviously not as fast as the kick turn, but I feel you get more out of your workout and it more realistic for triathletes. What are people's thoughts on this? There also aren't any walls in OW causing you to reverse your direction.. And you're still pushing off the wall either way. |
| 2009-12-09 1:17 PM in reply to: #2550329 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns hockeyhands - 2009-12-09 11:24 AM My swim coach and I would argue that you should not do flip turns as a triathlete as I do not recommend getting a strong kick off the wall during training. There aren't going to be any walls for you to kick off of when your in the open water. When I do my turns in the pool, I keep my head under the water the entire time while I turn by body and try to push off from the wall as little as possible. Yes, this is obviously not as fast as the kick turn, but I feel you get more out of your workout and it more realistic for triathletes. What are people's thoughts on this? (a) Nothing says you have to push hard and glide far off of a flip turn. (b) I have found (WARNING -- this is just my experience, which isn't saying much) that working on my glide after the wall has helped me understand more what it means to be 'hydrodynamic'. I do this especially during warmup. (c) There are many ways that OWS differs from pool swim. I don't think that attempting to mimic OWS conditions in a pool is generally very helpful. Just my opinion. I think that I get much more from just doing a couple of OWS sessions. |
| 2009-12-09 1:21 PM in reply to: #2550772 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns Good for the OP to learn it! Look on Youtube for tons of how to videos... Also, let's not even get into the topic of if flip turns are important or not for triathletes. That topic has been discussed ad nauseam... |
| 2009-12-09 1:22 PM in reply to: #2550359 |
Expert 1099 Bedford, NH | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns Yes, obviously if you were training for a sprint and any tri that had a pool swim, I would recommend kicking off the wall. I also agree with that and think the longer the distance you are training for, the more important it is to not kick off the wall. During the swim portion of a tri, it was my understanding that you should be saving your legs for the bike and run. As a result, I would recommend not kicking much while you're training in the pool... |
| 2009-12-09 1:23 PM in reply to: #2550665 |
Expert 1099 Bedford, NH | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns Yes, thats true, but I guess when I think of flip turns or at least the way most people do them, I think of pushing off with an explosive kick and trying to really explode off the wall. I am not sure if I explained myself properly, but with the turns I do, I essentially don't kick off the wall at all, forcing you to almost start from scratch from speed/swim standpoint. |
| 2009-12-09 1:26 PM in reply to: #2550786 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns hockeyhands - 2009-12-09 11:22 AM Yes, obviously if you were training for a sprint and any tri that had a pool swim, I would recommend kicking off the wall. I also agree with that and think the longer the distance you are training for, the more important it is to not kick off the wall. During the swim portion of a tri, it was my understanding that you should be saving your legs for the bike and run. As a result, I would recommend not kicking much while you're training in the pool... To push or not does not matter to me... I just do it, not easy or hard for ANY distance I'm training for. If I'm doing a 5000 meter swim for a 2.4 mile IM race, it doesn't matter if I push hard or not. That's just a lot of yards... You still kick for any distance, it helps with rotation and balance. But I will say that I agree that you don't have a frantic kick like for a 100 - 200 race as it uses too much energy. I don't think it's really about saving your legs. It's about saving energy... |
| 2009-12-09 1:28 PM in reply to: #2550787 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns hockeyhands - 2009-12-09 11:23 AM Yes, thats true, but I guess when I think of flip turns or at least the way most people do them, I think of pushing off with an explosive kick and trying to really explode off the wall. I am not sure if I explained myself properly, but with the turns I do, I essentially don't kick off the wall at all, forcing you to almost start from scratch from speed/swim standpoint. If that works for you, great. But it does not give you an advantage in your training. You are not really working harder than those who flip turn... You really don't start/stop every 25 meters in a triathlon either. |
| 2009-12-09 1:38 PM in reply to: #2549722 |
Veteran 295 | Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns agarose2000 - 2009-12-09 6:43 AM I'm going to bite the bullet and finally learn these flip turns. I know that this will likely have little impact on my actual OWS race day performance, but it seems that now that I'm spending significant amounts of time in the pool, I really should swim like a swimmer. (Yes, also gradually learning backstroke and others.) Had a few flip turn questions - - On my fast sets, I feel that I run out of oxygen on flip turns. Part of this (most of it) is because of the exhale on the flip so water doesn't flood my sinuses. How do you improve this? - Still not sure how close to the wall to flip. Right now, am flipping right when my outstretched arm touches the wall. - Any good websites/videos online showing how to do it well, and drills for it? Thanks Just FYI...I swim like a swimmer and I don't do flip turns. I just don't see the point in taking the time to learn this when you could be learning how to do a proper pull, better technique, body roll...etc, etc, I'd rather perfect my technique and learn how to go faster. Looks like you've got plenty of advice for learning though and check out youtube. Edited by meblack 2009-12-09 1:38 PM |
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