Questions about learning flip turns (Page 3)

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2009-12-10 8:49 AM
in reply to: #2551958

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
aquagirl - 2009-12-10 8:54 AM

When I become breathless because of using flip turns it is not actually DURING the turn that I have problems. The turn itself is ok, I have enough air until I pop up after the flags and take my first stroke. The problem I experience is more of a cumulative one. After using flip turns VS open turns for a few lengths I find I become more and more "hypoxic" as I continue to swim. When I do an open turn this does not happen.  Why do you suppose this is? How the heck do I fix it? 

Why is swimming  so d*mn hard?? Why the heck am I not "velogirl" ?


Just to clarify my earlier response to you, this is exactly what happened to me when I first began always flipping.  I do think that it gets easier.  At least, it did for me.  Initially, I found that after a flip I had to breathe more frequently for a few strokes.  (Example: if I was normally breathing every 3, then I might end up taking a breath every 2 for a few breaths after a flip, then return to every 3 until the next flip.)  Eventually, this need for extra breathing after a flip disappeared.  Occasionally I will sneak in an extra breath after a flip, but otherwise I can breathe normally.  Getting there took me a few months.  Alas, swimming is STILL hard!

2009-12-10 8:52 AM
in reply to: #2551925

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
hockeyhands - 2009-12-10 7:33 AM

I think I may be fighting an uphill battle here and I am not saying that I am right, but to counter that, do you get a boost or sprint for a couple seconds every quarter mile when you're running or on the bike?  Of course not.  If I kick off of the wall in the pool, the moment from the push carries me at least 3-5 yards.  As a result, I would get less strokes in every pool length I do (yes, I know you want to minimize the number of strokes you do), but I don't see how that is going to help you in the open water.


If you go back and read some of the responses above, especially those of great swimmers like Bob and TJ, there are a number of beneficial training opportunities by doing flip turns that negate the fact that you miss a few strokes per lap. Stoke is just one aspect of efficient swimming.
2009-12-10 9:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
I did Bryan and I am not trying to disagree with them.  I am not a top notch swimmer and still have a lot to learn.  However, I couldn't let that response go without a reply, but I guess I'll shut up now Smile
2009-12-10 9:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
hockeyhands - 2009-12-10 9:06 AM

I did Bryan and I am not trying to disagree with them.  I am not a top notch swimmer and still have a lot to learn.  However, I couldn't let that response go without a reply, but I guess I'll shut up now Smile


Oh, no Collin, that's a very good question to raise. To summarize, the turn itself as well as the body position coming off the wall are a great opportunity to work on getting a better feel for your movement through the water, which is a useful form of training.
2009-12-10 9:59 AM
in reply to: #2549722

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns

I think it is pretty funny how about one post after someone said "lets not discuss whether flip turns are good for triathletes" most of the remaining posts were about that. And I'm going to second those who argue FOR doing flip turns. The argument about how pushing off the wall saves you X strokes and is therefore somehow a bad thing and isn't representative of OWS, etc. doesn't hold a lot of water (get it) for me. True, it is not like OWS. Swimming in a pool is not OWS but most of us still train in a pool. If you are REALLY that concerned about missing a few strokes every length, bump your workout up to swim, say 2200 yards instead of 2000 to  compensate. What others have said about flip turns being important for feel in the water, etc. as well as them using more energy (IMO) than an open turn where you get to hang on the wall for a split second makes them a no-brainer in my book, if you can do them. I think some of the techniques you learn for stopping water gushing up your nose as you flip help when you are swimming in open water and a wave hits you in the face. To each their own though, and in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it actually makes that much difference whether you do flip turns or not. And yes, they do look cooler than open turns which, in the pool where I swim, is VERY important. Its about the only thing keeping the almost comatose lifeguard from totally falling asleep while you swim back and forth, back and forth. You can really see them perk up when someone does a flip turn! ;-)

2009-12-10 10:20 AM
in reply to: #2549722


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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
When I was learning (last week) I was taught the body control before I got close to a wall.  My instructor told me that I should stand on the line at the bottom of the pool and then do a flip in the water and land with my feet on the line again.  This helped me to get a feel for going end over end instead of doing a cork srew type of flip.  Once I was able to do that consisntently, I would swim to the wall from the flags and practice the flip into the wall over and over.  We also did wall pushes where I would "sit" on the wall with my feet against the wall ready to push, hands to my side.  I would then sink into the water and put my hands over my head and push off the wall.  This helped me get comfortable with coming off the flip upside-down and seeing the water above me.  Once I was comfortable with that, we added the cork-screw turn after the push to get me in position to swim again.  Breaking it down like that really helped me understand each step of the process better.  Now, I'm trying to figure out how to swim continuously while doing flip turns.  I have issues relaxing so I'm hoping more time in the pool will cure that.

Hope this helps.

2009-12-10 10:34 AM
in reply to: #2551925

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
hockeyhands - 2009-12-10 5:33 AM I think I may be fighting an uphill battle here and I am not saying that I am right, but to counter that, do you get a boost or sprint for a couple seconds every quarter mile when you're running or on the bike?  Of course not.  If I kick off of the wall in the pool, the moment from the push carries me at least 3-5 yards.  As a result, I would get less strokes in every pool length I do (yes, I know you want to minimize the number of strokes you do), but I don't see how that is going to help you in the open water.


Sure you do.

IF you apply more force to your running and to the pedals.  It takes energy.  Just like kicking off the wall.  You apply more force and energy and go a tad faster for a moment.

I'm not sure what's wrong with that...  Would it be cheating to stand on the pedals for a sprint for a couple seconds each mile or pick up the running pace for 20 yards every 1/2 mile?
2009-12-10 11:46 AM
in reply to: #2551958

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
aquagirl - 2009-12-10 7:54 AM


When I become breathless because of using flip turns it is not actually DURING the turn that I have problems. The turn itself is ok, I have enough air until I pop up after the flags and take my first stroke. The problem I experience is more of a cumulative one. After using flip turns VS open turns for a few lengths I find I become more and more "hypoxic" as I continue to swim. When I do an open turn this does not happen.  Why do you suppose this is? How the heck do I fix it? 

Why is swimming  so d*mn hard?? Why the heck am I not "velogirl" ?


This sounds exactly like my experience learning flip turns.  My solution was to start by only using flip turns during very short, hard 50yd intervals when I knew I was going to be a hypoxic mess anyway.  After a couple sessions I was able to work flip turns into 100yd sets, then my 200s, then I started working them into my warmup.  Within a few weeks I was flipping 100% of the time.
2009-12-10 4:59 PM
in reply to: #2549722

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns

agarose2000 - 2009-12-09 6:43 AM
Had a few flip turn questions -

- Still not sure how close to the wall to flip. Right now, am flipping right when my outstretched arm touches the wall.


Thanks 


Just realized I didn't answer the OP..sorry about that.

The outstretched arm is a good rule of thumb, but everyone turns a little different. If you coast, kick a lot, or are a little slow to start the flip, then you will be too close using the outstretched arm as your guide. As you get better and turns become quicker and tighter, then you will be able to dial it in a little better. Don't worry about momentum though, once you bend at the torso to flip there is no such thing. You will basically stop instantly. My experience has been that this is most people's problem with turns. They think that momentum will carry them into the wall and they end up flipping and missing the wall, or just getting the wall with their toes. Hope this helps and good luck!

Hope this helps

2009-12-10 5:13 PM
in reply to: #2549862

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
McFuzz - 2009-12-09 7:59 AM

One thing to consider is practicing flip turns on your cool-down set.  That way, if you do ingest water, you're not affecting the rest of your swim workout and you can focus on the flip rather than a split-time.  As you get better, add a few flips during warm-up. 



I was looking through this for advice for myself, and THIS sounds like a good way to START trying them! Great idea!
2009-12-10 7:18 PM
in reply to: #2553244

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
tjfry - 2009-12-10 5:59 PM

agarose2000 - 2009-12-09 6:43 AM
Had a few flip turn questions -

- Still not sure how close to the wall to flip. Right now, am flipping right when my outstretched arm touches the wall.


Thanks 


Just realized I didn't answer the OP..sorry about that.

The outstretched arm is a good rule of thumb, but everyone turns a little different. If you coast, kick a lot, or are a little slow to start the flip, then you will be too close using the outstretched arm as your guide. As you get better and turns become quicker and tighter, then you will be able to dial it in a little better. Don't worry about momentum though, once you bend at the torso to flip there is no such thing. You will basically stop instantly. My experience has been that this is most people's problem with turns. They think that momentum will carry them into the wall and they end up flipping and missing the wall, or just getting the wall with their toes. Hope this helps and good luck!

Hope this helps



What about the momentum you get from your legs coming out of the water as you fling them at over your head because you realized you started to turn too early? Just sayin'!


2009-12-10 7:25 PM
in reply to: #2553349

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns
rstocks3 - 2009-12-10 7:18 PM
tjfry - 2009-12-10 5:59 PM

agarose2000 - 2009-12-09 6:43 AM
Had a few flip turn questions -

- Still not sure how close to the wall to flip. Right now, am flipping right when my outstretched arm touches the wall.


Thanks 


Just realized I didn't answer the OP..sorry about that.

The outstretched arm is a good rule of thumb, but everyone turns a little different. If you coast, kick a lot, or are a little slow to start the flip, then you will be too close using the outstretched arm as your guide. As you get better and turns become quicker and tighter, then you will be able to dial it in a little better. Don't worry about momentum though, once you bend at the torso to flip there is no such thing. You will basically stop instantly. My experience has been that this is most people's problem with turns. They think that momentum will carry them into the wall and they end up flipping and missing the wall, or just getting the wall with their toes. Hope this helps and good luck!

Hope this helps



What about the momentum you get from your legs coming out of the water as you fling them at over your head because you realized you started to turn too early? Just sayin'!


Your absolutely right! I didn't consider momentum in reverse! So true.
2009-12-16 5:23 PM
in reply to: #2551874

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Subject: RE: Questions about learning flip turns

tjfry - 2009-12-10 5:01 AM  

Do you stop every quarter mile on the bike, forcing you to start from stratch from a speed/bike standpoint? What about the run?

To the OP and other comments:
Flip turns are beneficial on many levels. You are able to mantain pace easier, it helps your swim technique, teaches you breath control, etc. I have yet to hear a good reason to do open turns. When I do I will let everyone know.

Running out of breath on the flip turn is common but easy to fix. Get a good breath as you enter the turn and then blow out through your nose during the flip at a controlled release. Just forcing air out your nose will leave you out of breath in a hurry, so you need to control it so that just enough air comes out your nose that water doesn't get in. Once you've flipped over stop exhaling until you're about ready to take that first pull. Then release the rest of your air. 

A good strong push off the wall is important to maintain pace but also very important in understanding your own hydrodynamics. A good streamline off the wall is the same position you should be in on every stroke (with the exception that one arm is pulling/recovering). If you have a lousy streamline off the wall then you have a lousy glide/position while you swim. Working on one will help with the other. There's no need to have a huge kick off the wall, but a good streamline/kick combo helps maintain momentum to get you back up to pace. 

X2

I also think that Coughlin's push off the wall in the U-Tube video is sick.

 

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