Barefoot vs shoes and running times, lets get it out now (Page 2)

if you think barefoot running is good or bad. Good.

why you think one way or the other Several reasons.
1. I like going barefoot, generally. I used to have calluses thick enough that a gravel driveway was a nice opportunity for a relaxing foot massage. I like feeling things under my feet. It's just fun for me. I love living in a city, but one downside of it for me is that there are few opportunities to walk on anything but concrete/asphalt, so my shoes stay on pretty much all the time. Minimalist shoes are a decent compromise. (Barefoot evangelists would call me a wuss for this, and point out that I'll build calluses to save me from pavement, and that I "have these things called eyes" for avoiding broken glass and dog crap. These people do not have enough imagination. Broken glass and dog crap are not NEARLY the upper limit of things you wouldn't want to step in on Philly streets.)
2. My joints (particularly my left knee, which has had issues in the past) feel much happier with barefoot or minimalist running. I imagine it's probably because they force a more efficient stride. I didn't know anything about running "methods" or footstrike at the time I first tried br/mr, I just knew it felt better than running in regular shoes ever did.
3. It makes me way cooler than all of you color-inside-the-lines corporate tool types.

how many miles per week are you running / what do your running race times look like? Irrelevant in my case, I'm afraid. I am currently in horrible cardiovascular shape. Right now I'm just trying to get back to the point where I can move under my own power for 30 minutes at a time, at any speed/distance, without feeling like I'm going to die.

Hey David, is the point of asking about people pacing and times an effort to see if barefoot runners can also be fast? I would think running in some type of shoe will be faster than barefoot, especially on a non-natural surface.

How barefoot are we talking here? VFF/watershoe or skin? 

Bryan,

At this point i'm just looking to see if i find any relationship between running times, people running barefoot (and to an extent probably the people claiming to switch running form), and how overall thats effected their running).

Thus far *to me* its looking like the vast majority is people switching, slowing WAY down, and slowly building their mileage. I could be wrong. but it looks like every single person (with the exception of hte guy that warms up/cools down that way) that everyone is taking that step( as they should)

Just my thoughts so far though.

if you think barefoot running is good or bad.
I liked several of the previous answers like Slugger's, or jszat's:

why you think one way or the other
A decade or so ago I was trying to learn to run, sporadically since I kept hurting myself and taking time off from it, sometimes a year or more. About six years ago, still experiencing pf, I started rebuilding my running from scratch. I focused on using a mid to forefoot footstrike, short quick steps, low heart rates, and short, very slow runs that lengthened very gradually. I was also still using regular supportive or control running shoes.

Eventually I stopped focussing so much on cadence, HR, and footstrike, and just ran more, though still mostly keeping that style. I also gradually started getting stronger and faster. In '06 at the IMC athlete's expo, I tried on and bought some flats. I didn't know what minimal shoes or flats were, I just liked how light and effortless it felt to run in them and, since I was already using the appropriate running style, I needed very little adjustment to them.

Since then, I have had running stores recommend stability or pronation control shoes, tried them a couple of times, and started experiencing foot pains again. Now, I have the LRS order flats for me and sometimes switch in a pair of regular but light & neutral shoes. I don't pretend to know what would work for anyone else, but I now know what works for me.

I had just started reading about barefoot running and vff shoes so, when the LRS got some vff in last spring, I got a pair. Again I adjusted to them easily and started off with 5km runs outside on all sorts of surfaces. I've since also used them on treadmills and on an indoor track, though I wasn't using them very regularly through last fall. I recently started using the vff on the indoor track again, once a week. After the first run, I was feeling some strain in my calves and Achilles but now they're fine. I don't know if that kind of adaptation will help my shod running but I suspect it might. I plan to add more vff running to the schedule.

Last summer I did try a few short barefoot walks and runs. I like it but I'm afraid it would take too much time to build up the bottoms of my feet enough to do it regularly on more varied courses. I might try a bit more, come summer time.

In the last few years I've also injured my knee (non-tri related) and I don't think I could run with much weight on my heels anymore anyway.

how many miles per week are you running
I'm currently rebuilding, starting to get up over 20/week again. Last spring I was regularly running 30 ~ 40 and a few times over 40/week.

what do your running race times look like
Having never been a runner when younger last year was all PRs:
47 min. hilly 10km, 2:35 oly tri (53 run), 5:26 HIM (2:06 run), then injured during training for a disastrous IM.
(Yeah, I need to work on my bike pacing too.)
Nothing special but for a 200+ lb, 50 something, still learning to run, I'm happy.

Edited by Micawber 2010-01-30 1:58 PM

Why do you feel the biological functions and nutritional principles for powering cells of the 2010 C.E. H. sapien are different from their buddies ~200k back?

My body still prefers the flavor of sugar/fat for energy, which is supreme at storing it as fat cells (can I get an Amen?)

But beyond rhetorical questions, seriously, I'm buying and smoking what you're selling about the mainstream media diet slant.  I'm just skeptical about validating the feasibility that environmental changes and variations in available alleles can just just be written-off as "modern day." Anyway, great, well-informed post, Tcovert!  I'll apologize in advance for any Biology class flashbacks suffered by BTs' fine members, because this was a class A nerd alert post. 

I have no general opinion about 'barefoot' running, but here is my experience.

I've done it occasionally from time to time.  Sometimes barefoot, sometimes in socks.  Unlike many people who have spoken up, I don't think my form changes when I run barefoot.  No, I don't have high speed film evidence.  Yes, I do pay attention to my form while I'm running.  It doesn't feel or seem any different.  My times don't seem to be different either, though I've never raced barefoot, and have no plans to.

I've also taken to running a large percentage of my mileage in pretty minimal racing flats.   I don't notice any change in form there either.

I'm currently at 25mpw and building.  I've been as high as maybe 45 or so in the past (once or twice -- not consistently), and want to get back there (consistently).  I'll have been running for two years this May, starting from scratch.  My current 5k PR is 18:22.

Here's one small piece of evidence about speed difference.  Yesterday I did my first track workout of the season, running some 800s and 400s.  I was running the 400s at around 1:22, in my regular trainers (Saucony Progrid something or other).  Just for laughs, I took them off and ran one of the 400s barefoot.  Same time.  I realize this is only 400m and on the track, but it really felt no different, apart from the obvious.

Why do I do these things?  They're fun.  I like the way it feels.  And apparently (knock on wood...) I can get away with it without injury.  The 'fun' reason is the main one.

One possible further relevant fact in my case is that I am barefoot (well, socks) most of the time, both at home and at work.  So my feet are very used to walking around with no cushioning.

Just to be consistent, I'll throw up that disclaimer again - I'm just starting out on this, and so far I like it. I fully expect my opinions to change over time!

That said, I don't think slowing down and building up has much to do with it. Like one of the other posters, I've been there, done that, too many times to count. In fact, I think I do it TOO much. I need to get my act together and get BEYOND the slow-down, low-mileage thing. Going barefoot a couple times a week keeps things spicy, gives me a nice chance to measure progress in a new and interesting way (I comfortably increased my barefoot time 10 minutes in one week, from 15 min to 25 min. Normally, I'd NEVER do such a horrible, horrible thing like that. But I asked my body, it said keep going, so I did! And I felt WAY better after that run than I had the week before).

So far, it seems what I like about barefoot can be summarized thusly:
1) it's a fun new toy. Don't we ALL like fun new toys?
2) it's a new measurement tool
3) it allows me to listen to my body more fully. I wasn't able to achieve that before. I don't think that has anything to do with the actual barefoot part of barefoot running, but it is a tool that leads to a desired end, so I'll take it.


In other news, am I the only one experiencing LESS calf/Achilles pain when barefooting?

I'm like you, unless i am outside in the cold, or work stuff, i never have shoes on. when i have run barefoot, nothing changes. I can still run fast (very little bit of top end goes but thats it), form does not really change at all.

i too was doing a set of 400s the other day in the 1:20-25 range. i was playing around with form, footstrike, etc.

heal, midfoot, forefoot, longer stride, normal for me shorter.

the only thing that made a single bit of diff was with the longer stride things slowed down a tiny bit. footplacement did not do a thing to change it. (not that i thought it would). Not really sure that can tell anything from one run though.

My guess is barefoot would lead the the exact same times too.

That's not exactly what's going on with me.... I made the switch to light-weight minimalist shoes (essentially a racing flat) last year, and don't ever see myself going back to more cushioned/engineered shoes. My feet feel so much happier in a more minimal shoe! I made the switch while in a build phase for my running. The switch-over to more minimal shoes was gradual, though, starting with one run per week of a few miles, and gradually increasing the amount of time running in the flats until I switched over completely.

I'm in a similar phase right now with barefoot running. I'm building my running mileage back up after a bit of off-season down time, and am incorporating a small amount of barefoot running into my overall run mileage. Barefoot running right now accounts for < 10% of my overall weekly run mileage. I'm not really trying to switch over completely to barefoot running, but could certainly see myself building up to maybe one or two 5 or 6 mile barefoot runs per week at some point down the road. The runs I do barefoot are currently a bit slower than my runs in shoes, but I'm not really backing off on total mileage or slowing down my other runs..... I think it's a useful part of my overall training, but as someone else said, I don't see it as an "either/or" thing - at least for me. I think I can get (what I perceive as) the benefits of barefoot running by doing some of my runs barefoot, but don't feel like I need to do ALL of my running that way....

I'll play.

Not barefoot running exactly, but I've done a lot of running in VFFs over the past several months.

I like them because I think they help me hone a smoother stride with lower footstrike impact, and I believe they are helping me strengthen my feet.  I'm now in search of minimalist trail shoes that work well for me since all of my old "typical" shoes just feel clunky and awkward to me now.  I don't think barefoot or VFFs are required to achieve a smooth stride with low impact, but for me they are a tool that I believe helps.  And, they're just kind of fun :-)  On trails that aren't too rocky, I feel like a giddy little kid running my my VFFs.

Currently running about 40 to 50 mpw, but more in shoes and less in VFFs since winter set in.  Still doing one or two runs per week in the VFFs on the treadmill.

I've been focused on ultras lately, but I did manage a 39:41 10K in October, in my VFFs.  I don't do a lot of 10Ks nor focus on that distance, but I'd say that was a PR for me.

 Currently training for for a Grand Canyon rim to rim to rim run, and Western States 100.  Won't be doing either in VFFs, but probably in a light low profile trail shoe like NB MT100s or Inov-8 x-talon 212s.  Still experimenting.

thanks for all the thoughts guys!