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2010-03-04 8:56 AM

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Subject: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
So I am planning on doing my first marathon on May 2. I have previously trained for two other marathons. I used Hal Higdon's training plans for both, and was pretty rigorous about getting all my miles in. However, both times, I injured myself on my really long runs (one was 18 miles, one was 19 miles). I ended up not completing the marathons, and taking several months off of running. Both were tendon issues (hamstring tendon one time, and polonear(sp?) tendon on the other).

So here is my question, for anyone that has completed a marathon: Do you think it would be OK to just peak at 18 miles instead of 20 the way most plans call for? Since this is my first marathon I am really just going for completion, not a specific time. Also hoping not to cry like a little girl. Also, how many days a week do you think it is good to run?

Also in case anyone looks at my logs - I "ran" a 20 mile race a few weeks ago, and was pretty wiped out for a few weeks so I didn't do much. I say "ran" because it was a trail race, totally muddy and hilly, and it took me like 6 hours. So there was a lot of walking and I wouldn't really call the last 10 miles a run at all.


2010-03-04 9:04 AM
in reply to: #2706827

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
I think 18 miles is fine for a peak run. Frankly, I think the 20-miler a few weeks ago (HECK YEAH SLOW TRAIL RUNS COUNT!!!) would suffice!!!

You'll probably find the marathon easier than that run.

Just curious--the 18 and 19 miler you got injured on, were you running at a slower pace than usual? Or did you do all your miles at the same pace? Or were you training by something else entirely? (Or not really paying attention to pace ...)
2010-03-04 9:09 AM
in reply to: #2706827

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Runner
Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
Yes. I've trained successfully without doing anything over 18.
My caveat to this, however is that I had a decent amount of weekly mileage as well (65+ mpw). The higher the weekly volume, the less important the long run becomes. Of course, the inverse is true, too.

Key to successfully completing this race for you will be managing effort. Keep it feeling pretty easy, and you should be able to get to the finish.

As for how many days a week to run, I'm gonna go with 6-7. Of course, the actual number is going to be based on your goals, your schedule, your willingness to train, etc. And yes, I think a fairly new runner can run that often, by managing effort and volume. Keep the runs shorter and easier to start, and build from there.
2010-03-04 9:12 AM
in reply to: #2706827

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
I really like the Higdon plans, so you are following some popular plans that have worked for many people. 

for your main question "is it ok to peak at 18 miles"  while not optimal  I"d still say yes,  especialy if the rest of your training has been good, but your 20 miler while not all running would count in my book just since you were on your feet a long time.

I wonder what is causing your injuries on the long training runs though, any ideas, building to fast,?? over training? poor shoes?  etc.

 have fun
2010-03-04 10:01 AM
in reply to: #2706827

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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
Thanks for your replies everyone! I think I will just try to keep a higher volume during the week and go ahead and do my long run peak at 18 miles.

TriAya - 2010-03-04 9:04 AM

Just curious--the 18 and 19 miler you got injured on, were you running at a slower pace than usual? Or did you do all your miles at the same pace? Or were you training by something else entirely? (Or not really paying attention to pace ...)


The 19 miler I ran with my brother - he is a crazy runner and I was probably going too fast to try to keep up with him.

As for my other runs, I'd say they were all pretty much at the same effort level - i.e., for short runs I would run maybe 9:30 per mile (a decent speed for me) and for medium runs it would be maybe 10:30-ish, and then 11+ for longer runs. I didn't do any sort of speedwork, hills, or anything - just running.

In my training for my 20 miler this winter I have been incorporating some hill work, and also mixing up the surfaces I ran on which I think has helped.

Gaarryy - 2010-03-04 9:12 AM

I wonder what is causing your injuries on the long training runs though, any ideas, building to fast,?? over training? poor shoes? etc.

have fun


I know for the polonear tendon thing it had to do with my shoes - there was this plastic bit under the middle of the foot that came up kind of high on the outside, and the folks at my running store pointed it out to me when I came in and explained my issue - said it wasn't necessarily a bad shoe, but just the way I ran was probably why it was giving me issues. It never bothered me until my long run, and then after that I was limping for a week and it hurt any time I would run after that for a long time.

The hamstring issue I have no idea. One thing I thought of was it may have been a lack of sleep due to work and school, which I don't have to deal with anymore because I work from home and set my own schedule!
2010-03-04 10:12 AM
in reply to: #2706827

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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race

Having no idea when you previously trained for marathons, just from examining your logs from the past year it looks like a problem could be your long runs are far too high of a percentage of your weekly mileage. In the past year the highest you've averaged for weekly mileage is less than 25. Doing an 18-20 mile run off that kind of low volume may be the source of why you get injured. It also appears one of the reasons your recent 20 mile race took so much out of you is due to very low volume leading up to it.

Now it's March and you're planning an early May marathon. By this point you should be averaging at a very minimum 35-40 miles/week and you're not anywhere close to that. You don't have the base to ramp up quickly, so building mileage at this point may be somewhat limited. Not knowing which Higdon plan you're using, but it's hard to believe any serious marathon plan would call for doing such a low amount of running this close to the race.

You may find it beneficial to run 6-7 days a week, 3-5 miles each day. Make one day a longer run and try to build to your 18 miler about 3 weeks out from the race. Unfortunately that only leaves you about 5 weeks or so to get there.

IMO, running a marathon needs more than a 12 week program, especially the first one. I think a proper build for a first marathon would be more like 26 weeks at a minimum. Building the stamina and endurance to get through a marathon is a process that should not be short-changed.

YMMV.



2010-03-04 10:18 AM
in reply to: #2707104

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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
Donskiman - 2010-03-04 11:12 AM

Having no idea when you previously trained for marathons, just from examining your logs from the past year it looks like a problem could be your long runs are far too high of a percentage of your weekly mileage. In the past year the highest you've averaged for weekly mileage is less than 25. Doing an 18-20 mile run off that kind of low volume may be the source of why you get injured. It also appears one of the reasons your recent 20 mile race took so much out of you is due to very low volume leading up to it.

Now it's March and you're planning an early May marathon. By this point you should be averaging at a very minimum 35-40 miles/week and you're not anywhere close to that. You don't have the base to ramp up quickly, so building mileage at this point may be somewhat limited. Not knowing which Higdon plan you're using, but it's hard to believe any serious marathon plan would call for doing such a low amount of running this close to the race.

You may find it beneficial to run 6-7 days a week, 3-5 miles each day. Make one day a longer run and try to build to your 18 miler about 3 weeks out from the race. Unfortunately that only leaves you about 5 weeks or so to get there.

IMO, running a marathon needs more than a 12 week program, especially the first one. I think a proper build for a first marathon would be more like 26 weeks at a minimum. Building the stamina and endurance to get through a marathon is a process that should not be short-changed.

YMMV.



I agree with this 100%.
2010-03-04 10:28 AM
in reply to: #2707116

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DC
Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
Scout7 - 2010-03-04 10:18 AM
Donskiman - 2010-03-04 11:12 AM

Having no idea when you previously trained for marathons, just from examining your logs from the past year it looks like a problem could be your long runs are far too high of a percentage of your weekly mileage. In the past year the highest you've averaged for weekly mileage is less than 25. Doing an 18-20 mile run off that kind of low volume may be the source of why you get injured. It also appears one of the reasons your recent 20 mile race took so much out of you is due to very low volume leading up to it.

Now it's March and you're planning an early May marathon. By this point you should be averaging at a very minimum 35-40 miles/week and you're not anywhere close to that. You don't have the base to ramp up quickly, so building mileage at this point may be somewhat limited. Not knowing which Higdon plan you're using, but it's hard to believe any serious marathon plan would call for doing such a low amount of running this close to the race.

You may find it beneficial to run 6-7 days a week, 3-5 miles each day. Make one day a longer run and try to build to your 18 miler about 3 weeks out from the race. Unfortunately that only leaves you about 5 weeks or so to get there.

IMO, running a marathon needs more than a 12 week program, especially the first one. I think a proper build for a first marathon would be more like 26 weeks at a minimum. Building the stamina and endurance to get through a marathon is a process that should not be short-changed.

YMMV.

I agree with this 100%.


I also agree. In my experience, & in very simple terms, it's the ONLY way to "develop" a runner's body (i.e., one that can take a 26.2 mile licking & keep on ticking). But, given the OP's circumstances, what do you guys say about a run/walk strategy in order to cross that finish line? (My wife is also training for her first & got derailed due to crappy weather. Her last 15 miler exhibited some serious outter knee pain--probably overuse injury]).
2010-03-04 10:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
I have to agree with the above posters.  Your long run shouldn't be more than 50 % of your weekly miles, 40% is better.  So if you want to do a 20 mile run you should already have your base at 40 miles per week or more.  If you are only running 25 weekly miles, assuming 5 days a week of running, that is like 3, 3, 6, 3, 10. For a mary you should be up around 6,5,10,6,18 ish or some such.  I have taken 5-6 months to build for a marathon with a base of 25-30 miles per week before building up to 45 to 60 miles per week.  The newer you are to the sport and the more injuries you have had, the slower you need to build up and the bigger your base needs to be for building.        

At this late stage a run/walk approach is probably best and count on a long day.  Is there a cut off time for the marathon?  If the 20 miler took you 6 hours.... the 26.2 is likely to take you 7:30-8:00 at this point.   

Edited by Baowolf 2010-03-04 10:35 AM
2010-03-04 11:00 AM
in reply to: #2706827

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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
I wasn't using a marathon training plan in training for the 20-miler (I was using a plan my running partner created, and she has trained for and qualified for Boston so I trust her judgment!), so I kind of thought that I would just jump into a marathon training after the 20 miler. Also I will say that we did miss a few runs because of snow, insanely cold weather, being sick, traveling for the holidays, etc. The 20 miler wiped me out way more than I had expected, which is why for two weeks I've done basically nothing.

I have been running 4 years and have completed several half marathons, 10Ks and duathlons.

With the Hal Higdon novice plan, your weekly long run is about equal to the rest of your runs combined. The week of my 20 miler, the Higdon plan calls for total of 24 miles, so I really wasn't too far off from that.

Here is the chart of the plan that I would be using, starting at the week it would be now (week 10). The last column is the total number of miles for the week.

3 / 7 / 4 / 15 / t 29
3 /7 /4 / 10/ t 24
3 /7 /4 /15 /t 29
4/ 6 /3/ 8 /t 21
4 /8/ 4 /16 /t 32
4 /8 /5/ 12/ t 29
4 /9 /5 /18/ t 36
5 /10/ 5 /20 /t 40
5 /8/ 4/ 12 /t 29
5 /9 /5 /14 /t 33

What have you found works best for your long runs as a percentage of your weekly miles?

I guess at this point I just am going to have to do the best I can with what I've got, and maybe if I keep working hard I can try for a fall marathon and actually do a good job .

Please believe me when I tell you that I am expecting my full marathon time to be no worse than my 20 mile time - you can read my race report about how horrendous the conditions of that race were. It's basically impossible to run in 6 inches of mud. I don't think my time had as much to do with my fitness level as it did with the difficulty of the terrain. I ran 15 miles through the snow in 3 hours in my training, so 20 miles in 6 hours is kind of ridiculous. Also if any of you want to friend me on Facebook you can see the pictures from the race to see the kind of conditions they were!
2010-03-04 11:30 AM
in reply to: #2707282

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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
What have you found works best for your long runs as a percentage of your weekly miles? I guess at this point I just am going to have to do the best I can with what I've got, and maybe if I keep working hard I can try for a fall marathon and actually do a good job .


While we wait for the dudes/dudets w/a higher number of postings than me, I'm thinking that if you're concerned only with finishing, then I see no reason to worry. I've run a handfull of marys &, when I started tri-training, I started cutting back on my runs. But, I still managed to pull off "volume" runs w/out succesive shorter runs. Of course, my mary time wasn't near Boston qualification. The point is, I think it can still done... finishing that is. Again, let's see what others say (I might get in trouble for telling you that you can do it!)


2010-03-04 12:39 PM
in reply to: #2707282

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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
What I have found works best for me is no more than about 1/3 of total weekly volume in any one run, and I prefer it to be closer to 1/4.
I have followed Higdon's Intermediate plan (2, I believe), and it got me to the finish line, although I will say I was struggling at the end. In the other marathons I have run (2 a year later), I fared much better, but I had weekly mileage of around 70+ going into them. I was following a structure of my own for those.
So, what works for me:
Running often (at peak I was doing about 12 runs a week, 7 days a week).
Running lots of miles (I hit 70+ mpw).
Long runs of about 1/4 total volume (I think the longest run I had was 18 miles).
2010-03-04 2:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race

brynn - 2010-03-04 10:00 AM I wasn't using a marathon training plan in training for the 20-miler (I was using a plan my running partner created, and she has trained for and qualified for Boston so I trust her judgment!), so I kind of thought that I would just jump into a marathon training after the 20 miler. Also I will say that we did miss a few runs because of snow, insanely cold weather, being sick, traveling for the holidays, etc. The 20 miler wiped me out way more than I had expected, which is why for two weeks I've done basically nothing. I have been running 4 years and have completed several half marathons, 10Ks and duathlons. With the Hal Higdon novice plan, your weekly long run is about equal to the rest of your runs combined. The week of my 20 miler, the Higdon plan calls for total of 24 miles, so I really wasn't too far off from that. Here is the chart of the plan that I would be using, starting at the week it would be now (week 10). The last column is the total number of miles for the week. 3 / 7 / 4 / 15 / t 29 3 /7 /4 / 10/ t 24 3 /7 /4 /15 /t 29 4/ 6 /3/ 8 /t 21 4 /8/ 4 /16 /t 32 4 /8 /5/ 12/ t 29 4 /9 /5 /18/ t 36 5 /10/ 5 /20 /t 40 5 /8/ 4/ 12 /t 29 5 /9 /5 /14 /t 33 What have you found works best for your long runs as a percentage of your weekly miles? I guess at this point I just am going to have to do the best I can with what I've got, and maybe if I keep working hard I can try for a fall marathon and actually do a good job . Please believe me when I tell you that I am expecting my full marathon time to be no worse than my 20 mile time - you can read my race report about how horrendous the conditions of that race were. It's basically impossible to run in 6 inches of mud. I don't think my time had as much to do with my fitness level as it did with the difficulty of the terrain. I ran 15 miles through the snow in 3 hours in my training, so 20 miles in 6 hours is kind of ridiculous. Also if any of you want to friend me on Facebook you can see the pictures from the race to see the kind of conditions they were!


The schedule looks OK. However, it seems like a stretch since you haven't come close to running that much recently. It's like you're wanting to jump into the middle of a program without having done what was necessary to get there. That can lead to injury or lingering soreness because your body hasn't had time to adapt properly. The body typically doesn't respond well to all of a sudden cramming similar to the way some people cram for tests.

However, it is what it is. I think you would be better off to keep the long runs as scheduled, but do several more of the 3-4 mile runs every week and maybe shorten other runs. IOW, it might look like this: 3/4/3/3/4/3/15. After several weeks you can start adding a mile to each daily run. One of the benefits of running every day is if a run is missed it isn't that much of the weekly total, whereas when only running 4 days a missed run is 25% of that weeks workouts. Miss a few of those and the whole plan is severely compromised. And with shorter daily runs it is much easier to recover while amassing significant volume.

I like to keep my long run a no more than 1/3 ofweekly volume. So in a week when I do a 20 miler my weekly volume would not be less than 60 miles. For my first marathon I used a plan more similar to what you're using and the marathon ended up being a miserable experience. It seems for many people these kind of plans are only suitable for getting to the finish. There are always some exceptions, but I've seen poor results more often than not.

I think you will be able to get through this marathon. After you recover, immediately start training for a fall race so you can build properly and not get into this kind of predicament again.

2010-03-04 2:34 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Marathon training/peak week prior to race
Sorry I should have looked at your logs and races more closely.  It looks like if you can get your endurance up a bit actually 5 hours is not unreasonable for a finish time.  I didn't see how bad the 20 miler was mudwise.  You are going to really need to be conservative on your pacing for the mary though with a thin base.  The good news is that with the 6 hour epic trail run you know that you will be able to finish the mary even if you have to walk some at the end. 

So I guess just keep building a little here and there, follow the plan and stay healthy.  After this mary you will have a really good idea of what it will take to improve your times.  My 2nd mary was a full 30 minutes faster than my first one and I did not lose much off pace in the last 6 miles.  In the first one my mantra for the last 3 miles was I will not walk 8). 

Edited by Baowolf 2010-03-04 2:35 PM
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