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Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? (Page 2)
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 2010-04-21 12:57 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
Member  55 |  Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong?Eh, IMO it's far more rude to take the lion's share of the pulling up front in a group ride unless it has been communicated prior to the ride. At least in the groups I ride with, everyone wants a chance to do some work out front so what you did would have been frowned upon. I think if you want to pull or be in the wind for the entire effort, you are better off hanging on the back or doing the workout on your own. Then again, it's just a training ride, so anyone that gets their panties in a bunch about it needs to relax. |
| 2010-04-21 12:57 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
| Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? This makes no sense. Why are you riding in a group if all you want to do is ride off the front? I'm confused. If that bothers you, and you really don't want to draft, you shouldn't be in a group. If it's for the social aspect, you're not getting any by being off the front Just my personal opinion, but the fact you can't draft in a race is irrelevant. As kido said, if I am in zone "X", doesn't matter if I am pulling or being pulled. And it will improve your bike handling skills immensely. But if you don't like getting beat at the end, you need to either not ride in a group or pull off to the side to let someone else pull for a while |
| 2010-04-21 1:03 PM in reply to: #2807480 |
Champion 7233   | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? if you pulled the whole way, and didn;t let anyone else up front, they owe you nothing there (not that they did anyway). This happens to me on a lot of rides too though (only the other way around). I am a solid TT/triathlno cyclist, but i dont put out huge power (i do better by being smaller and in a good position), but i am a very strong climber. I used to do a ride with a lot of cat 1/3 cyclists, and i would take short 20-30 sec pulls before i had to move off the front. they would be up there 2-3 min at a time. on EVERY hill/longer climb i would drop the whole group. its the nature of the sport. some people are better at one part or another. when you take a triathlon rider and cyclist of similar ability, they are always going to be stronger on sprint/quick climb stuff. |
| 2010-04-21 1:07 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
Expert 703  Palm Springs, California | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? ...on the issue of obligation, with well matched riders, it's good form to pull a fair share. In a mixed group, where the weakest rider can barely hang on, no one expects others to pull more than their limit. Also in a group, if a very strong rider is making a point of staying on the front for hours, no one thinks a thing of it, unless, say, they are trying to be a hero, and obviously killing themselves. Rides are social, and unless there is a locomotive in front that no one can pass, people will share pulls. And 22-25 isn't a crazy fast pace. Many clubs with people younger than retirement can take tuns at that pace. |
| 2010-04-21 1:10 PM in reply to: #2807497 |
| Lafayette, CO | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? ChrisM - 2010-04-21 11:57 AM This makes no sense. Why are you riding in a group if all you want to do is ride off the front? I'm confused. If that bothers you, and you really don't want to draft, you shouldn't be in a group. If it's for the social aspect, you're not getting any by being off the front Just my personal opinion, but the fact you can't draft in a race is irrelevant. As kido said, if I am in zone "X", doesn't matter if I am pulling or being pulled. And it will improve your bike handling skills immensely. But if you don't like getting beat at the end, you need to either not ride in a group or pull off to the side to let someone else pull for a while This! If you don't want drafting involved in your training ride because it's not done in your races then don't ride with a group. Quite simple actually. |
| 2010-04-21 1:12 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
| Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? Maybe you should look at it from their perspective. You were pulling up front the whole time. You did not back off and let them pull. Maybe they thought that you were showing off by not letting them pull, and were standing up for themselves...to let you know..."hey...I don't suck that bad where I need you to pull the whole way and have nothing left in the tank on the last hill". We all have egos...I would have done the same thing to you. Sorry. |
| 2010-04-21 1:14 PM in reply to: #2807522 |
Expert 1116 Thornton, CO | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? newbz - 2010-04-21 12:03 PM if you pulled the whole way, and didn;t let anyone else up front, they owe you nothing there (not that they did anyway). This happens to me on a lot of rides too though (only the other way around). I am a solid TT/triathlno cyclist, but i dont put out huge power (i do better by being smaller and in a good position), but i am a very strong climber. I used to do a ride with a lot of cat 1/3 cyclists, and i would take short 20-30 sec pulls before i had to move off the front. they would be up there 2-3 min at a time. on EVERY hill/longer climb i would drop the whole group. its the nature of the sport. some people are better at one part or another. when you take a triathlon rider and cyclist of similar ability, they are always going to be stronger on sprint/quick climb stuff. I'm surprised they took such long pulls near the front, all the cat 1/3 riders I've met/rode with say 30 seconds max at the front. A number of them say 10-15seconds, it keeps the pace much faster that way since no one has a chance to get fatigued from a 2 minute pull. You feel like you just got to the front each time you have to pull off and rest. |
| 2010-04-21 1:20 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
Master 2426 Central Indiana | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? Agree the situation is no big deal, and happens in many group rides. Guys (usu guys) pull as little as possible during most of the ride, then break away or sprint to the finish. Who cares? Kudos to you for being a stronger rider, but don't expect pats on the back for doing all the group's work. I think the opposite situation is more important to think about. If you are a weaker rider in a group, DON'T pull much. If you are pacelining long distance it does no good for the group if you blow & can't take pulls anymore (whether you get dropped or not). Keep the pulls short so you can contribute something to the group. Even in pro team TT's the weaker pros taking shorter pulls is fastest for the team. |
| 2010-04-21 1:21 PM in reply to: #2807557 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? zionvier - 2010-04-21 12:14 PM newbz - 2010-04-21 12:03 PM if you pulled the whole way, and didn;t let anyone else up front, they owe you nothing there (not that they did anyway). This happens to me on a lot of rides too though (only the other way around). I am a solid TT/triathlno cyclist, but i dont put out huge power (i do better by being smaller and in a good position), but i am a very strong climber. I used to do a ride with a lot of cat 1/3 cyclists, and i would take short 20-30 sec pulls before i had to move off the front. they would be up there 2-3 min at a time. on EVERY hill/longer climb i would drop the whole group. its the nature of the sport. some people are better at one part or another. when you take a triathlon rider and cyclist of similar ability, they are always going to be stronger on sprint/quick climb stuff. I'm surprised they took such long pulls near the front, all the cat 1/3 riders I've met/rode with say 30 seconds max at the front. A number of them say 10-15seconds, it keeps the pace much faster that way since no one has a chance to get fatigued from a 2 minute pull. You feel like you just got to the front each time you have to pull off and rest. smaller rides. maybe 10 people max. the few lsower riders hang on the bike, the 3-4 faster ones take msot of the pulls. bigger rides i have been on are like that, 10-15 sec tops. |
| 2010-04-21 1:27 PM in reply to: #2807395 |
Master 1572 Baltimore | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? ballyard7 - 2010-04-21 1:34 PM Patrick E - 2010-04-21 12:21 PM Definitely rude behavior on their part, but I do wonder why you pulled the whole way? I would have expected you to pull out at some point and let the next person move to the front. Well I don't like to draft and the pace would have slowed down a lot. I'm not really good with drafting. I hate being right behind people because I can't see the road. Here in Oklahoma we have the worst roads in the nation. And i'm not just saying that....It's been published somewhere. And I have noooo problem drafting in a cycling road race. The point is to do exactly what they did to me. Draft as much as possible and sprint at the finish to try and win. I don't care all that much, but I wouldn't do that to someone. If anything I would go past them and make sure it slow enough for them to catch my tire. That just seems like a thank you for pulling. This seems key - what exactly are they "winning?" If you want to race the end, plan accordingly and ease up or drop back at the end (or make it fair and keep the handicap of pulling). If you're not racing them, they didn't really beat you, did they, so who cares? I completely understand being competitive, as I'm the same, but either prepare yourself for the competition or bow out...either way is fine depending on what you want to do. |
| 2010-04-21 1:29 PM in reply to: #2807496 |
Master 1366 PNW | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? jocristian - 2010-04-21 10:57 AM Eh, IMO it's far more rude to take the lion's share of the pulling up front in a group ride unless it has been communicated prior to the ride. At least in the groups I ride with, everyone wants a chance to do some work out front so what you did would have been frowned upon. I think if you want to pull or be in the wind for the entire effort, you are better off hanging on the back or doing the workout on your own. Then again, it's just a training ride, so anyone that gets their panties in a bunch about it needs to relax. This. Edited by GLC1968 2010-04-21 1:30 PM |
| 2010-04-21 1:37 PM in reply to: #2807601 |
Expert 1116 Thornton, CO | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? jsiegs - 2010-04-21 12:27 PM ballyard7 - 2010-04-21 1:34 PM Patrick E - 2010-04-21 12:21 PM Definitely rude behavior on their part, but I do wonder why you pulled the whole way? I would have expected you to pull out at some point and let the next person move to the front. Well I don't like to draft and the pace would have slowed down a lot. I'm not really good with drafting. I hate being right behind people because I can't see the road. Here in Oklahoma we have the worst roads in the nation. And i'm not just saying that....It's been published somewhere. And I have noooo problem drafting in a cycling road race. The point is to do exactly what they did to me. Draft as much as possible and sprint at the finish to try and win. I don't care all that much, but I wouldn't do that to someone. If anything I would go past them and make sure it slow enough for them to catch my tire. That just seems like a thank you for pulling. This seems key - what exactly are they "winning?" If you want to race the end, plan accordingly and ease up or drop back at the end (or make it fair and keep the handicap of pulling). If you're not racing them, they didn't really beat you, did they, so who cares? I completely understand being competitive, as I'm the same, but either prepare yourself for the competition or bow out...either way is fine depending on what you want to do. Being a guy it's sometimes hard to remember this, but.... "Training is training and racing is racing. You can make a race be training, but don't make training be a race" No one remembers who "won" last weeks training ride, but they'll all remember who won at the last race. ;-) |
| 2010-04-21 1:40 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
| Expert 618 | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? As I mentioned in another thread though, I have not been on a single group ride with competitive cyclists that did not turn into a leg-shredding hammer-fest. It is simply the nature of being a cyclist. And that is going back close to 20 years of riding road with groups. |
| 2010-04-21 1:44 PM in reply to: #2807601 |
Champion 5874 Milton, GA | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? jsiegs - 2010-04-21 2:27 PM ballyard7 - 2010-04-21 1:34 PM Patrick E - 2010-04-21 12:21 PM Definitely rude behavior on their part, but I do wonder why you pulled the whole way? I would have expected you to pull out at some point and let the next person move to the front. Well I don't like to draft and the pace would have slowed down a lot. I'm not really good with drafting. I hate being right behind people because I can't see the road. Here in Oklahoma we have the worst roads in the nation. And i'm not just saying that....It's been published somewhere. And I have noooo problem drafting in a cycling road race. The point is to do exactly what they did to me. Draft as much as possible and sprint at the finish to try and win. I don't care all that much, but I wouldn't do that to someone. If anything I would go past them and make sure it slow enough for them to catch my tire. That just seems like a thank you for pulling. This seems key - what exactly are they "winning?" If you want to race the end, plan accordingly and ease up or drop back at the end (or make it fair and keep the handicap of pulling). If you're not racing them, they didn't really beat you, did they, so who cares? I completely understand being competitive, as I'm the same, but either prepare yourself for the competition or bow out...either way is fine depending on what you want to do. around here you 'win' a calzone in the Wednesday night A group ride. The things people will do for a free calzone No, seriously you're right. There is no 'winning' a training ride. To the OP- you'll find some group rides do have designated sprints and KOM 'points'. Edited by LowcountryTRI 2010-04-21 1:44 PM |
| 2010-04-21 2:01 PM in reply to: #2807578 |
| 81 | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? newbz - 2010-04-21 1:21 PM zionvier - 2010-04-21 12:14 PM smaller rides. maybe 10 people max. the few lsower riders hang on the bike, the 3-4 faster ones take msot of the pulls. bigger rides i have been on are like that, 10-15 sec tops. newbz - 2010-04-21 12:03 PM if you pulled the whole way, and didn;t let anyone else up front, they owe you nothing there (not that they did anyway). This happens to me on a lot of rides too though (only the other way around). I am a solid TT/triathlno cyclist, but i dont put out huge power (i do better by being smaller and in a good position), but i am a very strong climber. I used to do a ride with a lot of cat 1/3 cyclists, and i would take short 20-30 sec pulls before i had to move off the front. they would be up there 2-3 min at a time. on EVERY hill/longer climb i would drop the whole group. its the nature of the sport. some people are better at one part or another. when you take a triathlon rider and cyclist of similar ability, they are always going to be stronger on sprint/quick climb stuff. I'm surprised they took such long pulls near the front, all the cat 1/3 riders I've met/rode with say 30 seconds max at the front. A number of them say 10-15seconds, it keeps the pace much faster that way since no one has a chance to get fatigued from a 2 minute pull. You feel like you just got to the front each time you have to pull off and rest. Being in a paceline and an echelon are different animals. In a pace line the lead rider can take a pull as long as they want. In a standard echelon you basically pull off the front as soon as you get there. Being a triathlete it seems you should be stonger at the front of a paceline since that is pretty much a TT effort. Any time a proficient triathlete or TT'ist is on our ride they usually stay out front for a portion of the ride. |
| 2010-04-21 2:17 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
Master 3127 Sunny Southern Cal | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? I learned early on riding amongst a group that it's generally a bad idea to pull the group to the base of a climb. Someone will attack when the road pitches up, and then you will be toast. |
| 2010-04-21 2:31 PM in reply to: #2807357 |
| Pro 4054 yep, | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? bryancd - 2010-04-21 1:24 PM So what? They have benefited from you pulling them and decided to do some work on their own as opposed to trying to "show you up". It wasn't a race. Did they throw it in your face after? I would have no problem with that. Have them pull next time and see what happens. See how much you could push them even harder next time as well. |
| 2010-04-21 2:59 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
Expert 939 Tulsa | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? Thanks for the input everyone....But "most" of you are totally missing the point. This was NOT a road race. Not saying i'm good or anything but the guys I was pulling are easily 2-4mph average slower on a ride 25-50 miles. We usually ride 2 abreast for the social aspect of it. When I started going faster it turned into a single paceline. When we get into a single paceline if someone wants to take a pull the come from behind and take the lead otherwise you wait for the person upfront to peel off. I wasn't going to draft at 18-20 when i can easily average 21. So my point was that these guys were at a decent effort just drafting. And they came around me at the last hill to sprint past "WITHOUT" giving me a chance to get on there wheel. When I go around someone up a hill that i've been drafting I always get in front of them at their speed and slowly increase my speed to at least give them a chance to latch on. If you've ever been pulling for long periods and someone flies around you at 3-4mph faster than you and your legs are dead from the pull it's hard to catch on to the wheel. Anyway I wasn't mad or upset or anything like that. I just thought I would see what you guys thought. I know in a race that I would be stronger so it doesn't bother me that they shot up the hill. It just seemed kind of rude to slingshot past me after i was pulling the entire way without even giving me a chance to latch on. Not mad....don't really care, just thought I would see what everyone else thought. |
| 2010-04-21 3:30 PM in reply to: #2808027 |
| Expert 618 | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? ballyard7 - 2010-04-21 3:59 PM Anyway I wasn't mad or upset or anything like that. I just thought I would see what you guys thought. I know in a race that I would be stronger so it doesn't bother me that they shot up the hill. It just seemed kind of rude to slingshot past me after i was pulling the entire way without even giving me a chance to latch on. Not mad....don't really care, just thought I would see what everyone else thought. See my last post about typical group rides with competitive people. Sounds like you experienced just that (with you being the aggressor in the first portion pulling them along  ).Me? I would never have let the drop me on the hill as I am used to people trying to jump on me like that (hell, I did it all the time in races). It would totally be on at that point and the beatings would commence!! |
| 2010-04-21 3:58 PM in reply to: #2807402 |
Champion 5495 Whizzzzzlandia Silver member | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? tjfry - 2010-04-21 12:35 PM I'm gonna have to agree with the last posts. It's not a big deal. You chose to get your workout in by pulling most of the day. They chose to get their workout in by sitting in and sprinting up a hill. It's just training. Now if they were your domestique's climbing Mt. Ventoux and they pulled that, you would have reason to yell. Next time drop em while you are pulling and leave no doubt. *snerk* X2. |
| 2010-04-21 4:03 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
Master 1366 PNW | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? Speaking as a cyclist (before I'm a triathlete) one of the things to consider when pulling is how much you have left to keep up with the surge when you are done. It's not up to the people passing you to 'allow' you to catch on (unless you are clearly having issues which, in this case, wasn't the situation), it's up to you to keep enough in reserve to be able to surge. I don't think they were rude at all. If I was in a group where someone pulled for the whole ride, it wouldn't even occur to me that they might need my assistance to stay with us up the last hill. |
| 2010-04-21 4:14 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
Pro 5011 Twin Cities | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? If you're on a group ride, and it's a drafting ride and you don't want to draft...then you can't be blaming every one else when they do and then have fresh legs. Sprints and surges are common. And people run pacelines so they have the energy to do it. Group ride; Group rules. Edited by mmrocker13 2010-04-21 4:16 PM |
| 2010-04-21 4:21 PM in reply to: #2808027 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? ballyard7 - 2010-04-21 4:59 PM Thanks for the input everyone....But "most" of you are totally missing the point. This was NOT a road race. Not saying i'm good or anything but the guys I was pulling are easily 2-4mph average slower on a ride 25-50 miles. We usually ride 2 abreast for the social aspect of it. When I started going faster it turned into a single paceline. When we get into a single paceline if someone wants to take a pull the come from behind and take the lead otherwise you wait for the person upfront to peel off. I wasn't going to draft at 18-20 when i can easily average 21. Honestly, if you are riding with a group where you can pull for the entire ride then I would suggest you find a new group to ride with or just ride solo. You are going to become a better cyclist if instead of sitting on the front you are taking regular pulls and recoveries. Futher, you won't be the triathlete who shows up, sits on the front all day and then gets dropped anytime there is a sprint or hill climb. Shane |
| 2010-04-21 9:11 PM in reply to: #2808027 |
Extreme Veteran 745 Colo Springs, CO | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? ballyard7 - 2010-04-21 1:59 PM When we get into a single paceline if someone wants to take a pull the come from behind and take the lead otherwise you wait for the person upfront to peel off. Personally, I think that is just a dumb way to ride, thinking that a person will sprint to the front of the group. I've ridden with a lot or groups in CA and CO, and that is always the first thing they teach the noobies (the person pulling moves to the side and drops back when they're done with their pull.) I've noticed it mentioned on threads here before (the idea of having one of the back cyclists speed up to the front to pull) and it is just a really bad way to ride. It's probably a large part of the reason why roadies hate to have triathletes in their group rides -- so many triathletes really DON'T have any clue about cycling in a group (the etiquette or the skills needed.) And I think most triathletes would probably benefit from learning the PROPER way to ride in a group. Which does not involve getting to the front of the paceline and cranking up the speed/effort beyond what the group was maintaining. That creates an "accordian" effect and is another big no-no when riding a paceline. What you did is essentially the same as circle swimming and ignoring the taps on your feet. |
| 2010-04-21 10:19 PM in reply to: #2807333 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Drafting during group rides....Am I wrong? It wasn't a race, you got your workout, they got theirs. Win-win. Ego should stay at home. (if your feelings are going to be hurt). |
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