good or bad Vibram or Nike free running experiences (Page 2)

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Ive only had bad experiences with the VFF's. Ive never worn them mind you, but the crowd in my area that uses them to run in fall into the "au naturale" crowd and always reek of patchouli and I hate patchouli.

i have the VFF Flow. got them mainly for running in sand at the beach. they work great for that, but have not used them for road running.

I don't run in my VFF's but I wear them all the time for non-running activities.  I have fibular sesamoiditis in my right foot and my doc's Rx was to wear either my 'Correct Toes' or my VFF's pretty much all the time and to slowly transition to either barefoot or minimalist running.  I run in Terra Plana shoes (VivoBarefoot Aqua's) and wear my VFF's to work or for path hikes with my dogs.  I also have a forefoot strike (naturally), but still had to slowly transition to less support in my shoes.  I started with sock feet on a treadmill, then barefoot on a treadmill, then barefoot outside for short distances (once it warmed up a bit) and now I can wear the Aqua's for even my longest runs (which for me are only just shy of 5 miles).   As everyone mentioned, they can be 'run savers' for those of us who had completely given up on ever running, but START SLOW.  It took me a month to work up to running a half mile!

Edited by GLC1968 2010-07-06 11:55 AM

If you carefully inspect the wording on the people who have had success with minimalist shoes, you will see that they use words like 'started slowly' and 'built up gradually'. If they had done this similar training technique with regular shoes, and possibly even concentrated on their form, I am willing to bet they would have seen similar results. The type of footwear may not be the key to success- sometimes its as simple as training smart.

Not in my case, but thanks for playing...

Perhaps those of us who had success with minimalist footwear did try everything under the sun previously but chose to leave that out of our posts since the OP didn't ask for our running history.

I'll ignore your snide comment, since nothing I said was personal...

I am genuinely curious, about your comment 'everything under the sun'- did you take an entire month to build up to 1 mile with regular shoes? Minimalist running might truly be the answer to some specific running injuries (like yours, perhaps), but I am still willing to bet that regular running shoes simply let us runners get away with a lot more training than our bodies can handle. By taking away the shoes, minimalist/barefoot makes running painful in other ways and causes the runner to build up VERY gradually, run a lot slower and focus on form. For some people, that may be the exact incentive/motivation they need to train smart, but for other people, they can simply do these same things in their regular running shoes.

I was speaking to a friend at a 4th of July BBQ.  He also switched to vibrams and tore his calf.  He hasn't run at all for the past 3 weeks.

In regards to athletic perfromance, I have learned that it is often next to impossible to ascribe the reasons for our success to any one thing even though we may really want to. It's all cumulative. Don't fall into the trap of thinking there is ONLY ONE way or one technique or one bit of gear.

Sorry if I took your post personally.  It immediately followed mine and basically said that I (or us minimalist footware types) must not have 'trained smart' using regular footwear.

And since you asked - yes....I took much MORE than a month to get up to running a mile.  In fact, if you want to step into my past, as a kid, I avoided running because it hurt.  I put up with it for sports because I loved them, but I would never run just to run.  It wasn't until I was doing a lot of cardio work to lose weight (as an adult) that I decided to try running again.  I started slowly and with well-fitting running shoes chosen by a running specific store that analyzed my foot and my gait.  I still had pain.  Then I tried the custom orthotics designed by a podiatrist specifically for high-impact sports, still pain.  I took those orthotics to a different running speciality store and got new motion control shoes specifically to work with those orthothics.  Again, pain.  At that point, I gave them a year and when it didn't help, I gave up ALL running and bought a road bike.  For 5 years, I did NO impact sports.   None - not even hiking which I also loved.  Then last year I decided that I wanted to do triathlon so I need to learn to run again.  I started with Chi running combined with the couch to 5K and yes, it was WELL more than a month before I was running for a mile straight (more like 3 months).  The pain came back.   What I discovered was that when I took off my shoes, it was gone.  Instantly.  I was stunned!  I just didn't jive with all I'd been told about the 'support' that my lousy feet needed.  I'm SOOOO thankful that I'd read about starting slowly with the barefoot thing or I would have run for miles right then and there because it felt so good.  And, incidentally, the Chi running techniques are MUCH easier to achieve when barefoot than they are in a motion control shoe!  Anyway, at that point, I began slowly building up the barefoot running by adding it to my shod running workouts.

When I just couldn't run in shoes at all without pain (I ran my races with shoes on and the pain was dreadful), I made an appointment with a podiatrist.  I'm not just making some assumptions based on a book or two - this is a real MD here.  His experience with his practice has shown that most modern footwear can cause actual deformities due to toe misalignment (I happen to have very wide feet so it's is extra pronounced in my case).  While it's true that some people can go their whole lives with no foot trouble, there are others like me who have been plagued with it since I first started wearing shoes.  'Wide toe box' shoes are not wide enough.  Things like 'toe spring' (how the toes of most shoes point up) and a propped up heel mess with the natural strength of the arch in the human foot.  Take away all those things designed to 'help' and the human foot is remarkably strong and well-suited to running once our natural barefoot strength is built up.

I'd also like to add that I'm not telling anyone (or everyone) that they need to ditch their shoes.  I'm just saying that if you do, take it slow and give your feet (muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones and fatty tissue) time to adjust.

Your point about how shoes allow us to do to much too soon is true.  But they also allow us to have bad form, to run in ways we shouldn't run, and for distances that we aren't ready to run.  Barefoot takes all that way and gives us the feedback that our bodies were designed to read.  In fact, there are plenty of people out there who feel that even minimalist shoes don't allow for enough feedback and that's why people are injuring themselves.  You could put on a pair of VFF's and run for 3 miles your first run out (then you'd be in a lot of pain in the coming days).  You can't do that completely barefoot - your soles would be toast, forcing you to stop.  THAT is handy feedback! ;-)

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Use Nike Frees all the time, it took me a while of starting slow and short distances to get my feet and legs sorted out, since then I think they are the way to go for me. Use them on the road and for trail running, have done a couple of Tri's with them also, easy to get on in T2. Just ordered my 3rd pair. Also have a pair of 5 fingers which I will spend more time in after my races this year, for now I'm sticking with what I know works, have 2 more olympic Tri's coming up. Born to Run was a great book, don't know if I will ever try true barefoot running, might try some RunAmocs one day

I have the VFF KSO's. Really like them.

I have never run with them for more than 1 mile on my treadmill, but when I do I really get a better feel of what the mid / fore foot strike is, and feel that I can translate that into better stride form with my regular shoes.

So for me they are really more of a training device, helping me improve my running technique.

However, the best thing about these shoes is how embarrassed my kids are when I wear them out in public.

Actually, if that were really true, you wouldn't see any injuries associated with running barefoot (at least not overuse injuries). However, we have seen people in this thread already state that they developed overuse injuries.

Not listening to your body can happen regardless of equipment, plain and simple. Overestimating your current abilities has more to do with hubris than it does biomechanics.

I agree.  My point is that if people were truly barefoot (as in NAKED feet) - overuse is much more rare.   The soles of our feet would limit what we were able to do and where we were able to run, forcing the gradual progression necessary to do it injury free.  Unfortunately, in today's world, most people think that running truly barefoot is unsafe.

From those that have posted here?  If I recall correctly, all had overuse problems with minimalist footwear (which makes sense since that was the OP's question).  There is absolutely a rash of this going on right now...no doubt about it.  It's easy to do, which is why everyone who has done it successfully is constantly recommending a slow progression.

There is no magic equipment solution - only smart, hard work...I totally agree.

Even if you slowly progress, your weekly mileage will still be the limiting factor. *from my experience, as well as others I've read on various forums.

The process of learning to run correctly in Vibrams is the main benefit, which is huge.  However, the main problem with Vibrams is that you aren't running truly barefoot.  With bare feet, your foot offers the minute tactile feedback which is crucial for running form.  With Vibrams, you're very close to that proper form, but that minute difference has the possibility of causing problems after the mileage adds up.

As far as minimalist running and overuse injuries go, I wonder if "overuse" is really what we tend to see. I see a lot of "acute" injuries when people switch to minimalist footwear (myself included, as I tend to be dumb and reckless sometimes). Calf injuries that come on within a couple of days or a week are not "overuse", are they? Well, maybe they are. My point is that you see different injury patterns with minimalist footwear, with injuries mostly occurring at the onset on use. With traditional shoes, the opposite is true - you are likely to get injured without any relation to time using the shoe. So if you can be smart about gradually working a more minimalist show into rotation, you may find that over time you suffer less injuries if you can avoid that immediate injury window that many have trouble with.
Also, it's not just minimalist footwear you have to cautious with. I gave myself a metatarsal stress fracture by trying to alter my stride and switching to Newton's. After that, I switched to a low-tech Nike shoe, and did an IM in them with no problem. Now I run in cheap Nikes that I buy at Shoe Carnival, and my Vibram Bikulas. BUT, I never run more than 6 miles and only run Z1-2 right now. And it's been that way for over a year, really. So it works for me. When I do decide to up my mileage, my feet and body will be ready. And if they don't like the Vibrams for longer distances, I will use my Nikes.
Jessica

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What cadence should I run barefoot?

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