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Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's
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 2010-09-01 9:57 PM |
New user  4 |  Subject: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM'sI have to put this out there as I'm just at a lost for what I witnessed. I saw two different participants at IM The Ville using "swim snorkels" and stopped to report to kayak spotter who just shook his head. I've been blessed to finish 7-IM's but have never seen this before...anyone else witnessed this new "swim assist" and how/why is it being allowed? Water challenged but keepin it real.... |
| 2010-09-01 10:32 PM in reply to: #3077545 |
Veteran 265   Boston | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's Just read the latest rules and they even specifically state that snorkels are permitted. I'd be embarrassed to use one... Kind of like putting training wheels on a bike. |
| 2010-09-01 10:56 PM in reply to: #3077545 |
Master 2404 Redlands, CA | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's I don't have a problem with it if the person has neck back pain and can't swim without it; if they are using it to 'survive' or just get a faster time, then that's abusing the intention of the rule. |
| 2010-09-02 7:47 AM in reply to: #3077545 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's The kayakers should have gone over and stuck a finger in the snorkle. :-) There will always be people at every race who see how much they can get away with....be that using fins in IMFL or snorkles in IMKY or simply drafting when no officials are around. Personally, I think they should have been DQ'd on the spot but I don't know that rules specifically prohibit snorkles. ~Mike |
| 2010-09-02 8:04 AM in reply to: #3077860 |
Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's Rogillio - 2010-09-02 9:47 PM The kayakers should have gone over and stuck a finger in the snorkle. :-) There will always be people at every race who see how much they can get away with....be that using fins in IMFL or snorkles in IMKY or simply drafting when no officials are around. Personally, I think they should have been DQ'd on the spot but I don't know that rules specifically prohibit snorkles. ~Mike Actually I'm pretty sure their legal. Finman on the other hand...and did you see the guy with the outbound motor? Unbelievable... |
| 2010-09-02 8:19 AM in reply to: #3077545 |
Extreme Veteran 664 Minneapolis | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's Have you ever tried to swim hard with a snorkel??? I think folks out there have this idea it'd be some amazing cheat, but I think you'd find a snorkel a much bigger PITA than its worth (sighting, drag, tube size issues [small = less drag, but wayyyy less O2]). I think the rule was originally in place to accommodate folks with physical limitations, but if it's now been relaxed to allow anyone to do it, well... just try it sometime... I think you'll hate it, but YMMV of course. Cheers, Chris |
| 2010-09-02 9:35 AM in reply to: #3077582 |
Expert 1249 MI | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's mogulbumm - 2010-09-01 11:32 PM Just read the latest rules and they even specifically state that snorkels are permitted. I'd be embarrassed to use one... Kind of like putting training wheels on a bike. Which rules were you reading? USAT or WTC? I read somewhere that it's legal for USAT but not WTC... not sure if it's true though. |
| 2010-09-02 9:48 AM in reply to: #3077545 |
Elite 2768 Raleigh | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's My old master's swim coach made us swim with snorkels as part of hipoxic (sp) training... so I can tell you that they are not a benefit...
And they are allowed per USAT and WTC rules. |
| 2010-09-02 10:17 AM in reply to: #3077545 |
New user 4 | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's Thanks, good to know as it relates to the rules! I had cervical surgery less than six months out from IM last year (09) and got two pieces of steel & six screws in my C6/C7 but had know idea I could have utilized. |
| 2010-09-02 10:44 AM in reply to: #3078204 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's trigods - 2010-09-02 9:48 AM My old master's swim coach made us swim with snorkels as part of hipoxic (sp) training... so I can tell you that they are not a benefit...
And they are allowed per USAT and WTC rules. So are you saying these people were in the handicap division? If so, they should have been desingated with a special cap or something indicating as such? Also, shame on USAT and WTC for not educating other competors (and the kayakers) that snorkles are allowed for handicapped competitors. If one is NOT hanidcapped, I'm thinking a snorkle ranks right beside using fins. That is, it is a crutch and if you can't swim w/o it, you don't need to be in the middle of river swimming 2.4 miles! ~Mike |
| 2010-09-02 12:10 PM in reply to: #3077545 |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's I agree, try swimming (hard) with a snorkel... it's not all roses and easy going. I can breathe A LOT easier without one... of course, that was with a wal mart snorkel (hey, I was at the ocean looking for shells!) so I don't have any xp with a nicer model. That said... IF/when it's legal (it is specifically NOT at Rev3) taking for granted that it DOES indeed make the person using it faster, I say good for them for reading the rules and using what makes them faster. Say somebody like Andy Potts (or, pick your good swimmer pro) through testing finds that he can cut a minute off his IM swim time by using a snorkel... it's legal by the rules of the race... he doesn't use it because it's *frowned upon* and ends up coming in second place by <1minute. In my opinion, he made a poor choice, just like I'd say he made a poor choice if he rode his road bike over his tri bike, a jersey over a skinsuit/skintop, a 404 rear over a disc, a regular helmet over an aero helmet or a skin suit over a wetsuit. It's legal, there should be no problem with it. Now, if it's legal ONLY for athletes with a specific problem and then somebody exploits it, that's a different situation... |
| 2010-09-02 1:46 PM in reply to: #3078382 |
Elite 2768 Raleigh | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's Rogillio - 2010-09-02 10:44 AM trigods - 2010-09-02 9:48 AM My old master's swim coach made us swim with snorkels as part of hipoxic (sp) training... so I can tell you that they are not a benefit...
And they are allowed per USAT and WTC rules. So are you saying these people were in the handicap division? If so, they should have been desingated with a special cap or something indicating as such? Also, shame on USAT and WTC for not educating other competors (and the kayakers) that snorkles are allowed for handicapped competitors. If one is NOT hanidcapped, I'm thinking a snorkle ranks right beside using fins. That is, it is a crutch and if you can't swim w/o it, you don't need to be in the middle of river swimming 2.4 miles! ~Mike Mike,
I didnt say that these "people" where handicaped that used them, I was saying that people with limited range of motion in the neck AND I dont think that would qualify someone as handicapped; might use a snorkle. My father in law had neck surgery and has limited turn in his neck and he lifts weights everyday, he is far from handicapped but I would think he would not be able to swim at all because of the fact he cannot turn his head but a limited distance. |
| 2010-09-02 1:55 PM in reply to: #3077545 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's well, it appears that the rules say that anyone can use a snorkel. if you think that there is an advantage then YOU can use one yourself and have the same advantage. I did tris in the late 80s/early 90s. back then very few trithletes used a wetsuit and guys that did were looked upon as cheaters and laughed at if wetsuits were not mandatory (there were a couple mountain races that they were mandatory). Anyway, I don't think people get accused of cheating or laughed at for wearing a wetsuit today. |
| 2010-09-02 2:33 PM in reply to: #3078929 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's trigods - 2010-09-02 1:46 PM Rogillio - 2010-09-02 10:44 AM trigods - 2010-09-02 9:48 AM My old master's swim coach made us swim with snorkels as part of hipoxic (sp) training... so I can tell you that they are not a benefit...
And they are allowed per USAT and WTC rules. So are you saying these people were in the handicap division? If so, they should have been desingated with a special cap or something indicating as such? Also, shame on USAT and WTC for not educating other competors (and the kayakers) that snorkles are allowed for handicapped competitors. If one is NOT hanidcapped, I'm thinking a snorkle ranks right beside using fins. That is, it is a crutch and if you can't swim w/o it, you don't need to be in the middle of river swimming 2.4 miles! ~Mike Mike,
I didnt say that these "people" where handicaped that used them, I was saying that people with limited range of motion in the neck AND I dont think that would qualify someone as handicapped; might use a snorkle. My father in law had neck surgery and has limited turn in his neck and he lifts weights everyday, he is far from handicapped but I would think he would not be able to swim at all because of the fact he cannot turn his head but a limited distance. Sorry. It's not personal, just my opinion. Fortunately my opinion counts for nothing when it comes to the rules of a triathlon. It seems rather obvious to me that, if someone is uable to turn their head to the side to breath due to a physical limitation, this is a handicap or limitation - by definition. Doesn't diminish the athlete.... My real issue is not with people who have neck issues. My issue is with anyone who cannot swim w/o a snorkel jumping out in the middle of the Ohio River to swim 2.4 miles! ~Mike |
| 2010-09-03 10:40 PM in reply to: #3078204 |
Veteran 265 Boston | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's trigods - 2010-09-02 10:48 AM I don't disagree with them being allowed, but with qualifications, much like the exceptions they make for handbikes etc... If there is a physical limitation necessitating use, I am 1000% for it, however the official rules set no limits on usage of snorkels. My old master's swim coach made us swim with snorkels as part of hipoxic (sp) training... so I can tell you that they are not a benefit...
And they are allowed per USAT and WTC rules. |
| 2010-09-04 7:01 AM in reply to: #3077545 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's FWIW, there is no way I could get enough air through a snorkel if I'm swimming hard. It would slow me down. |
| 2010-09-04 9:14 AM in reply to: #3078382 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's Rogillio - 2010-09-02 11:44 AM trigods - 2010-09-02 9:48 AM My old master's swim coach made us swim with snorkels as part of hipoxic (sp) training... so I can tell you that they are not a benefit...
And they are allowed per USAT and WTC rules. So are you saying these people were in the handicap division? If so, they should have been desingated with a special cap or something indicating as such? Also, shame on USAT and WTC for not educating other competors (and the kayakers) that snorkles are allowed for handicapped competitors. If one is NOT hanidcapped, I'm thinking a snorkle ranks right beside using fins. That is, it is a crutch and if you can't swim w/o it, you don't need to be in the middle of river swimming 2.4 miles! ~Mike I am not with you on this. I am going with shame on you for not knowing the rules of the event. If you can read you would know that they were legal and it is not up to USAT or WTC to tell you that. Should USAT also tell you that compression socks are legal or that discs are legal. I would say shame on WTC if they have written rules stating snorkels are legal, but they decided for IM Louisville that they were not and in that case they did not inform people of a rule change. |
| 2010-09-04 9:34 AM in reply to: #3081931 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's qrkid - 2010-09-04 9:14 AM Rogillio - 2010-09-02 11:44 AM trigods - 2010-09-02 9:48 AM My old master's swim coach made us swim with snorkels as part of hipoxic (sp) training... so I can tell you that they are not a benefit...
And they are allowed per USAT and WTC rules. So are you saying these people were in the handicap division? If so, they should have been desingated with a special cap or something indicating as such? Also, shame on USAT and WTC for not educating other competors (and the kayakers) that snorkles are allowed for handicapped competitors. If one is NOT hanidcapped, I'm thinking a snorkle ranks right beside using fins. That is, it is a crutch and if you can't swim w/o it, you don't need to be in the middle of river swimming 2.4 miles! ~Mike I am not with you on this. I am going with shame on you for not knowing the rules of the event. If you can read you would know that they were legal and it is not up to USAT or WTC to tell you that. Should USAT also tell you that compression socks are legal or that discs are legal. I would say shame on WTC if they have written rules stating snorkels are legal, but they decided for IM Louisville that they were not and in that case they did not inform people of a rule change. OK, I am duly shamed. :-( I should read all the WTC rules and USAT rules as well as race specific rules before opining about snorkles. For all I know compression socks and fins and arm floaties are legal. BTW, please read my disclaimer in my logs before giving my opinion more credence than it is worth. :-) Regardless of the rules, I fudmentally believe someone who can't swim w/o a snorkel should not be swimming 2.4 miles in the Ohio River unless they are in the handicapped division. There is a pretty strong current in the Ohio river and there are 8,000 arms and legs flailing around and one needs to be a pretty competant swimmer before attempting and IM. But this is just my personal opinion. ~Mike |
| 2010-09-04 9:45 AM in reply to: #3081950 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's Rogillio - 2010-09-04 10:34 AM qrkid - 2010-09-04 9:14 AM Rogillio - 2010-09-02 11:44 AM trigods - 2010-09-02 9:48 AM My old master's swim coach made us swim with snorkels as part of hipoxic (sp) training... so I can tell you that they are not a benefit...
And they are allowed per USAT and WTC rules. So are you saying these people were in the handicap division? If so, they should have been desingated with a special cap or something indicating as such? Also, shame on USAT and WTC for not educating other competors (and the kayakers) that snorkles are allowed for handicapped competitors. If one is NOT hanidcapped, I'm thinking a snorkle ranks right beside using fins. That is, it is a crutch and if you can't swim w/o it, you don't need to be in the middle of river swimming 2.4 miles! ~Mike I am not with you on this. I am going with shame on you for not knowing the rules of the event. If you can read you would know that they were legal and it is not up to USAT or WTC to tell you that. Should USAT also tell you that compression socks are legal or that discs are legal. I would say shame on WTC if they have written rules stating snorkels are legal, but they decided for IM Louisville that they were not and in that case they did not inform people of a rule change. OK, I am duly shamed. :-( I should read all the WTC rules and USAT rules as well as race specific rules before opining about snorkles. For all I know compression socks and fins and arm floaties are legal. BTW, please read my disclaimer in my logs before giving my opinion more credence than it is worth. :-) Regardless of the rules, I fudmentally believe someone who can't swim w/o a snorkel should not be swimming 2.4 miles in the Ohio River unless they are in the handicapped division. There is a pretty strong current in the Ohio river and there are 8,000 arms and legs flailing around and one needs to be a pretty competant swimmer before attempting and IM. But this is just my personal opinion. ~Mike Mike I am with you and do not think they should be allowed for various reasons. I just didn't think that USAT or WTC were in the wrong because the OP didn't know the rules of the race. Believe me, I have not studied the USAT rule book and basically know I should not darft. If I get nabbed for some random, I took 2 stides too many as a Dodo waddled by transition type of rule, that is then all on me if it is written in the rules wether I agree with it or not. Have a great Labor day weekend. |
 2010-09-04 7:35 PM in reply to: #3077545 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-09-05 1:26 PM in reply to: #3077545 |
| Expert 1053 Culpeper, VA | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's I'd have to swim with a snorkel to decide if it was an advantage or not. Only seen one in competition, he was actually in my wave... bright lime green snorkel at that, sort of hard to miss. I would have liked to observe it in action, but I was busy swimming in front of him.  As it stands its legal to do so, so to those that want to use them... whatever. As we try to gain every advantage possible, I'm fine with using one if it made me faster, even if it rubs purists the wrong way. |
| 2010-09-05 5:45 PM in reply to: #3082926 |
| Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's xeon - 2010-09-05 1:26 PM I'd have to swim with a snorkel to decide if it was an advantage or not. Only seen one in competition, he was actually in my wave... bright lime green snorkel at that, sort of hard to miss. I would have liked to observe it in action, but I was busy swimming in front of him. As it stands its legal to do so, so to those that want to use them... whatever. As we try to gain every advantage possible, I'm fine with using one if it made me faster, even if it rubs purists the wrong way. I've done a lot of snorkeling on coral reefs but never really swam freestyle using one but my gut feel is it would make me slower as it would cuase me to stop rotating my upper body and I'd have to push a lot more water with my chest. I see no reason why it would make anyone faster. ~Mike |
| 2010-09-07 8:16 AM in reply to: #3081931 |
| Veteran 867 Vicksburg | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's qrkid - 2010-09-04 9:14 AM Rogillio - 2010-09-02 11:44 AM trigods - 2010-09-02 9:48 AM My old master's swim coach made us swim with snorkels as part of hipoxic (sp) training... so I can tell you that they are not a benefit...
And they are allowed per USAT and WTC rules. So are you saying these people were in the handicap division? If so, they should have been desingated with a special cap or something indicating as such? Also, shame on USAT and WTC for not educating other competors (and the kayakers) that snorkles are allowed for handicapped competitors. If one is NOT hanidcapped, I'm thinking a snorkle ranks right beside using fins. That is, it is a crutch and if you can't swim w/o it, you don't need to be in the middle of river swimming 2.4 miles! ~Mike I am not with you on this. I am going with shame on you for not knowing the rules of the event. If you can read you would know that they were legal and it is not up to USAT or WTC to tell you that. Should USAT also tell you that compression socks are legal or that discs are legal. I would say shame on WTC if they have written rules stating snorkels are legal, but they decided for IM Louisville that they were not and in that case they did not inform people of a rule change. It was written in the rules during the time frame of (June 28 or 29) that they were illegal. I know this b/c me, along with one of my training partners and my swim coach researched it for myself. I don't know how many of you remember but I posted I had a bike wreck on June 27 that put me out of IMLou. Before we went to my orthopedic surgeon we did the research to see if I could use a snorkel to get through the swim since I knew I had AC shoulder tear, I just didn't know how bad. Once I saw the surgeon and was informed it was a grade 5 and was going to have to have surgery I knew I couldn't compete. When we researched it it was legal by USAT rules but illegal by WTC rules. |
| 2010-09-17 1:03 PM in reply to: #3077545 |
| New user 3 Wandering T2 | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's For those of you who suggest that the exclusion of snorkels from the list of prohibited swim equipment is for the benefit of challenged athletes, please note there is an entire section of the USAT Competitive Rules that is dedicated to those competitors (see section re: ParaTriathletes) and that this was not the intention of rule 4.9. The spirit of rule 4.9 is to ensure that athletes complete the swim under the own power, meaning forward propulsion. A snorkel does not provide an unfair competitive advantage to move forward in the swim portion of the race. Snorkels, while not a violation of current USAT Competitive Rules may be prohibited by the Race Director at his or her discretion. This is between the competition field and the Race Director; USAT is not involved in this process. Also, for the poster who said shame on USAT or WTC for not telling people: The Competitive Rules are published annually, which is, in essence, a vehicle for telling you what rules you must compete by in the sport of triathlon. Shame on you if you didn't do your part by familiarizing yourself with them. |
| 2010-09-17 1:52 PM in reply to: #3104729 |
| Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Snorkels at IM Louisville or other IM's DavidCarr - 2010-09-17 1:03 PM For those of you who suggest that the exclusion of snorkels from the list of prohibited swim equipment is for the benefit of challenged athletes, please note there is an entire section of the USAT Competitive Rules that is dedicated to those competitors (see section re: ParaTriathletes) and that this was not the intention of rule 4.9. The spirit of rule 4.9 is to ensure that athletes complete the swim under the own power, meaning forward propulsion. A snorkel does not provide an unfair competitive advantage to move forward in the swim portion of the race. Snorkels, while not a violation of current USAT Competitive Rules may be prohibited by the Race Director at his or her discretion. This is between the competition field and the Race Director; USAT is not involved in this process. Also, for the poster who said shame on USAT or WTC for not telling people: The Competitive Rules are published annually, which is, in essence, a vehicle for telling you what rules you must compete by in the sport of triathlon. Shame on you if you didn't do your part by familiarizing yourself with them. I made the crack....but I feel no shame. The kayaker who was patrolling the course evidently did not know the rules. That is shameful. ~Mike |
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