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Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement
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 2010-10-06 7:49 AM |
Master  1572    Baltimore |  Subject: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvementI drank the kool-aid and go the PM. One of the big reasons was to have a quantifiable metric for improvement (or not) on the bike. Someone smart told me that setting goals for FTP improvement over the winter is a big help with motivation, and I like goals in general. But they also said you'd need to be smart (I'm not) or know somone who is to do it correctly. I'm planning to jump into Jorge's winter cycling plan. So that being said, what is a reasonable goal to set for myself for FTP at a midway point in the plan and at the end? Or maybe a better question, how do I analyze my history/plans to set reasonable goals? for reference, my logs are up to date. Cycling has definitley been maintenance since ending the season before starting the plan. I did an FTP test on my trainer beginning of Sept and got 262 W via the critical power 20 min and 5 min tests. Based on how the I feel on the trainer, I think that number is still pretty accurate (for the trainer...the outside vs inside power differences might be there). Thanks! |
| 2010-10-06 7:52 AM in reply to: #3135360 |
Elite 4235  Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement If you're starting off at 262W as your FTP, then you're pretty strong to start with! I've heard of people making huge 25-30W gains over a winter, but I think realistically10-15W might be more realistic and achievable with steady hard work. IMO, if you're doing it right, you'll develop a real love/hate relationship with the PM. Those workouts are painful! |
| 2010-10-06 8:00 AM in reply to: #3135360 |
Expert 1706 NoVA | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement Right now I'm too lazy to go back and check but I think Jorge's plan has you testing a couple of times during the program so he's got you covered there---it's up to you to pick an improvement that you want to see. I personally don't set anything in stone since then I would get lazy---I'm always willing to UP the goal FTP!!!! And yes you will have a love hate relationship with your bike, trainer and PT! A side note---don't buy the hype on road vs. trainer wattage---read the post by Dave Luscan about it---I agree it's a stop gap measure---last year for Jorge's plan I used my "outside" FTP as the basis for all the workouts even though during the first test I wasn't as high...I completed all the workouts based on that outside number and by the time I did the next test I was actually higher then that outside number---you just learn how to suffer and get stronger! Your body WILL do it so don't let your mind screw you! |
| 2010-10-06 8:18 AM in reply to: #3135391 |
Master 1572 Baltimore | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement Skippy74 - 2010-10-06 9:00 AM Right now I'm too lazy to go back and check but I think Jorge's plan has you testing a couple of times during the program so he's got you covered there---it's up to you to pick an improvement that you want to see. I personally don't set anything in stone since then I would get lazy---I'm always willing to UP the goal FTP!!!! And yes you will have a love hate relationship with your bike, trainer and PT! A side note---don't buy the hype on road vs. trainer wattage---read the post by Dave Luscan about it---I agree it's a stop gap measure---last year for Jorge's plan I used my "outside" FTP as the basis for all the workouts even though during the first test I wasn't as high...I completed all the workouts based on that outside number and by the time I did the next test I was actually higher then that outside number---you just learn how to suffer and get stronger! Your body WILL do it so don't let your mind screw you! Well, I want to see 100 W improvement, but that's not reasonable. i could also pick 1 W improvement, and I'll probably blow that away. I want a reasonable goal, or advice on how to come up with that number. Something that won't be easy...that maybe I'll just barely hit or fall short of the first test, and will give me the motivation to get there on the second, third, etc. |
| 2010-10-06 8:27 AM in reply to: #3135442 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement FWIW, I dont know how strong you are on the bike right now, but if you are in a just maintaining mode, you will see some solid gains over the winter (i dont think 20 watts is much of a stretch at all if you are smart). FWIW in two years training with power i watched mine go up aprox 50 watts (and this was after 2 years of solid racing). If you focus on that over the winter there is no reason not to see big gains, but you'll have to be A) smart about it, B) stick with it (see A), and C) learn to love to hurt. Where does that 260 put you watts to Kg wise right now? Also, and this is more personal experience than anything, but the 5 and 20 min test pegged my FTP a lot higher than either the 2x20min or a 60min TT. Some people are MUCH better at pacing/pushing/physically at the shorter distances and this can skew the numbers one way or the other (although if you stick with the same test it really should not matter, as the trend is what you really should be tracking anyway). get a good set of fans and enjoy the winter of fun! (ps if you want to have some real nasty fun sometime try a hard set of intervals with and without the fan and watch the power output dif between the two sets;-) |
| 2010-10-06 8:57 AM in reply to: #3135474 |
Master 1572 Baltimore | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement newbz - 2010-10-06 9:27 AM FWIW, I dont know how strong you are on the bike right now, but if you are in a just maintaining mode, you will see some solid gains over the winter (i dont think 20 watts is much of a stretch at all if you are smart). FWIW in two years training with power i watched mine go up aprox 50 watts (and this was after 2 years of solid racing). If you focus on that over the winter there is no reason not to see big gains, but you'll have to be A) smart about it, B) stick with it (see A), and C) learn to love to hurt. Where does that 260 put you watts to Kg wise right now? Also, and this is more personal experience than anything, but the 5 and 20 min test pegged my FTP a lot higher than either the 2x20min or a 60min TT. Some people are MUCH better at pacing/pushing/physically at the shorter distances and this can skew the numbers one way or the other (although if you stick with the same test it really should not matter, as the trend is what you really should be tracking anyway). get a good set of fans and enjoy the winter of fun! (ps if you want to have some real nasty fun sometime try a hard set of intervals with and without the fan and watch the power output dif between the two sets;-) Thanks for the advice. 262 puts me at 3.6 W/kg. I'd do the longer tests, but most likely outside, not inside. I could probably do it once inside, then I'd hate it so much I wouldn't test nearly enough. So I really want 38 W - hit that magic 300 W...I guess I'll wait until next year though. 25-30 might be a good goal though. I'd rather stretch it a bit and have to work my butt off to try to hit it, even if I fall a bit short than set too easy a target. 290 W gets me 4 W/kg, which may be a good goal. And if I can't hit it through wattage increase, I can always lose the few extra pounds I'm carrying. |
| 2010-10-06 9:03 AM in reply to: #3135631 |
Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement jsiegs - 2010-10-06 8:57 AM newbz - 2010-10-06 9:27 AM FWIW, I dont know how strong you are on the bike right now, but if you are in a just maintaining mode, you will see some solid gains over the winter (i dont think 20 watts is much of a stretch at all if you are smart). FWIW in two years training with power i watched mine go up aprox 50 watts (and this was after 2 years of solid racing). If you focus on that over the winter there is no reason not to see big gains, but you'll have to be A) smart about it, B) stick with it (see A), and C) learn to love to hurt. Where does that 260 put you watts to Kg wise right now? Also, and this is more personal experience than anything, but the 5 and 20 min test pegged my FTP a lot higher than either the 2x20min or a 60min TT. Some people are MUCH better at pacing/pushing/physically at the shorter distances and this can skew the numbers one way or the other (although if you stick with the same test it really should not matter, as the trend is what you really should be tracking anyway). get a good set of fans and enjoy the winter of fun! (ps if you want to have some real nasty fun sometime try a hard set of intervals with and without the fan and watch the power output dif between the two sets;-) Thanks for the advice. 262 puts me at 3.6 W/kg. I'd do the longer tests, but most likely outside, not inside. I could probably do it once inside, then I'd hate it so much I wouldn't test nearly enough. So I really want 38 W - hit that magic 300 W...I guess I'll wait until next year though. 25-30 might be a good goal though. I'd rather stretch it a bit and have to work my butt off to try to hit it, even if I fall a bit short than set too easy a target. 290 W gets me 4 W/kg, which may be a good goal. And if I can't hit it through wattage increase, I can always lose the few extra pounds I'm carrying. More importantly, for triathlon anyway, worry about the W/CdA ratio! I too wonder about the accuracy of the 5 and 20 min testing protocol, but they're much easier to do on a regular basis than a 60 min effort. |
| 2010-10-06 9:04 AM in reply to: #3135631 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement again depending on where you are starting from (how long you've been at it, how much training to date, how much weight to lose) you could probably do that in a winter IF you do it all well/smartly. |
| 2010-10-06 9:12 AM in reply to: #3135360 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement 10-20% is pretty common for those that bust their butt all winter. I think you'll see some nice gains if you work your pVo2Max. Your 5 min power is low compared to your 20 min power. That may change as you learn how to test, and it may not actually be that low but that was the first thing that jumped out at me looking at your test from your logs. |
| 2010-10-06 9:45 AM in reply to: #3135360 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement jsiegs - 2010-10-06 7:49 AM I drank the kool-aid and go the PM. One of the big reasons was to have a quantifiable metric for improvement (or not) on the bike. Someone smart told me that setting goals for FTP improvement over the winter is a big help with motivation, and I like goals in general. But they also said you'd need to be smart (I'm not) or know somone who is to do it correctly. I'm planning to jump into Jorge's winter cycling plan. So that being said, what is a reasonable goal to set for myself for FTP at a midway point in the plan and at the end? Or maybe a better question, how do I analyze my history/plans to set reasonable goals? for reference, my logs are up to date. Cycling has definitley been maintenance since ending the season before starting the plan. I did an FTP test on my trainer beginning of Sept and got 262 W via the critical power 20 min and 5 min tests. Based on how the I feel on the trainer, I think that number is still pretty accurate (for the trainer...the outside vs inside power differences might be there). Thanks! Depending on your starting point you can expect to improve 5-20% depending on how trained you currently are, how close you are to yuor natural limits, how much work are you willing to put, how fast you recover, etc. For people relatively untrained and new to the sport a 15+% improvement is not out of the ordinary, for someone who has trained consistently for years a 5-7% might be more realistic. Last year before I got injured I increased my 5MP and 20MP by 5% and 6% within 6 weeks of specific training. I am certain I could have bring my critical power to ~285-290w for a 8-10% improvement by the end of the 12 week plan I set for myself. The new cycling plan v3.0 will have 4 testing weeks so you will be able to track your improvements over the plan. I think if you are starting at ~260w and improve by 5-10% that would be a great goal and guessing (without knowing much about your training), very achievable. Your goals should be 1. improve absolute critical power as much as you can 2. improve your W/Kg 3. improve your W/Cda accomplish all 3 and you'll be in great shape for 2011! |
| 2010-10-06 9:51 AM in reply to: #3135660 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement AndrewMT - 2010-10-06 9:03 AM your wasn't that much off, specially considering the pacing at your 40K TT was a bit offjsiegs - 2010-10-06 8:57 AM newbz - 2010-10-06 9:27 AM FWIW, I dont know how strong you are on the bike right now, but if you are in a just maintaining mode, you will see some solid gains over the winter (i dont think 20 watts is much of a stretch at all if you are smart). FWIW in two years training with power i watched mine go up aprox 50 watts (and this was after 2 years of solid racing). If you focus on that over the winter there is no reason not to see big gains, but you'll have to be A) smart about it, B) stick with it (see A), and C) learn to love to hurt. Where does that 260 put you watts to Kg wise right now? Also, and this is more personal experience than anything, but the 5 and 20 min test pegged my FTP a lot higher than either the 2x20min or a 60min TT. Some people are MUCH better at pacing/pushing/physically at the shorter distances and this can skew the numbers one way or the other (although if you stick with the same test it really should not matter, as the trend is what you really should be tracking anyway). get a good set of fans and enjoy the winter of fun! (ps if you want to have some real nasty fun sometime try a hard set of intervals with and without the fan and watch the power output dif between the two sets;-) Thanks for the advice. 262 puts me at 3.6 W/kg. I'd do the longer tests, but most likely outside, not inside. I could probably do it once inside, then I'd hate it so much I wouldn't test nearly enough. So I really want 38 W - hit that magic 300 W...I guess I'll wait until next year though. 25-30 might be a good goal though. I'd rather stretch it a bit and have to work my butt off to try to hit it, even if I fall a bit short than set too easy a target. 290 W gets me 4 W/kg, which may be a good goal. And if I can't hit it through wattage increase, I can always lose the few extra pounds I'm carrying. More importantly, for triathlon anyway, worry about the W/CdA ratio! I too wonder about the accuracy of the 5 and 20 min testing protocol, but they're much easier to do on a regular basis than a 60 min effort. |
| 2010-10-06 9:54 AM in reply to: #3135360 |
Master 1359 South of SLC | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement I used mine all winter long to train for IMSG and loved the objective feedback it gave me. I thought the functionality of the data improved when I picked up the WKO+ software from Training Peaks for what it is worth. And you are starting at a great baseline at 262 watts. I busted my butt all winter long at finally got up to 245. Great job. Mike |
| 2010-10-06 9:55 AM in reply to: #3135474 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement newbz - 2010-10-06 8:27 Also, and this is more personal experience than anything, but the 5 and 20 min test pegged my FTP a lot higher than either the 2x20min or a 60min TT. Some people are MUCH better at pacing/pushing/physically at the shorter distances and this can skew the numbers one way or the other (although if you stick with the same test it really should not matter, as the trend is what you really should be tracking anyway). get a good set of fans and enjoy the winter of fun! (ps if you want to have some real nasty fun sometime try a hard set of intervals with and without the fan and watch the power output dif between the two sets;-) My experience coaching athletes is that the CP model is usually no more than 3-5w off for some people. Still, I don't hang my hat on the number blindly and define training and pacing goals off if it. For that we do 60 min time trials (during racing season) or just use the data gathered through the many many training sessions. All that data really gives me a better picture as to where the real CP is. The reason I is the CP model is because it is reasonable reliable, it makes testing easier for the athlete and the results makes easier to track improvements. At the same time, it helps me identify weaknesses and set up goals. Also, power is so ever changing day after day due to fitness-fatigue that I rarely set a definitive number when talking about it and usually use a range to describe it i.e. CP is around ~265-270w ETA - I also use the testing for performance modeling! Edited by JorgeM 2010-10-06 10:08 AM |
| 2010-10-06 9:56 AM in reply to: #3135360 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement 260 w on your first test is pretty good. i can tell you when i got mine in may i was putting down 211. just yesterday i ran 2x20' at 245w+.... you will see solid gains probably 20-30w....i am curious on your weight also. you obviously can throw down a solid run. how about a plan? are you going to follow JorgeM's plan or do you have a coach? |
| 2010-10-06 10:07 AM in reply to: #3135360 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement Good advice shared already. One thing folks need to learn when they first get a PM is how to execute the 20' and 5' tests well. Often folks don't pace evenly or don't go hard enough so it may take them 2-3 times testing to get it right. I'm not advising doing 2-3 tests in a short amount of time but it is a learned skill. One way to see how you did is look at your vi to see if your average watts and normalize power are the same or close. If it the vi is great than say 1.02 you didn't execute well. If you tested poorly the first time you will see more gains than if you tested well the first time. I think Endurance Nation posts the gains their folks get following their out season plan and I think the number is real but in context inflated a bit for two reasons. 1. Folks start out of season or winter plan when they get back on the trainer. Many people test lower and have harder time putting out same watts on trainer for many reasons. If you test before you have adapted back to hard trainer rides, number will be lower than it would be if you have adapted to trainer work again. 2. As I stated above many people haven't don't enough testing to know how to execute well so don't push as much as they can so again their power numbers are lower than they would have been if they had executed their test well. So by doing testing on regular basis at the end of the program they will have learned how to test well and that raises their testing results. Only you know how well you did your first test. What was your VI on your 20' test? How long have you been cycling? Those factors will help you set your goals. For me my trainer FTP is lower than my outside FTP early on when I'm still adapting to trainer. The two get closer together through winter. Once I get outside and ride 6 weeks my FTP jumps up another ~20 watts to my normal summer fitness FTP. So you will see gains through winter, but expect more once you get back on the road next spring. So perhaps set two goals...trainer goal and next summer peak fitness goal. |
| 2010-10-06 10:33 AM in reply to: #3135360 |
Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement Setting a watts goal far in advance is like seytting a time goal months out from a race... can lead to stupid training. I'd set your goals in terms of consistency of the workouts, or riding a certain number of minutes at 95% of FTP per week, or something like that. Re-test often and train smart for the best advances. But realistically, if your goal is 25 watts or 35 watts or 50 watts, isn't your training going to be exactly the same? |
| 2010-10-06 11:22 AM in reply to: #3135988 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement JoshKaptur - 2010-10-06 10:33 AM Setting a watts goal far in advance is like seytting a time goal months out from a race... can lead to stupid training. I'd set your goals in terms of consistency of the workouts, or riding a certain number of minutes at 95% of FTP per week, or something like that. Re-test often and train smart for the best advances. But realistically, if your goal is 25 watts or 35 watts or 50 watts, isn't your training going to be exactly the same? not sure what you mean by when you say training would be the same? if i wanted to gain 50 watts in 3 months or so i would probably have to ride a bit more...i would drop all my running and swimming and bike 6 x week with 2 long rides.... at least that is how i view it.... not sure if that is what you meant though. |
| 2010-10-06 11:25 AM in reply to: #3135846 |
Master 1572 Baltimore | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement JorgeM - 2010-10-06 10:55 AM newbz - 2010-10-06 8:27 Also, and this is more personal experience than anything, but the 5 and 20 min test pegged my FTP a lot higher than either the 2x20min or a 60min TT. Some people are MUCH better at pacing/pushing/physically at the shorter distances and this can skew the numbers one way or the other (although if you stick with the same test it really should not matter, as the trend is what you really should be tracking anyway). get a good set of fans and enjoy the winter of fun! (ps if you want to have some real nasty fun sometime try a hard set of intervals with and without the fan and watch the power output dif between the two sets;-) My experience coaching athletes is that the CP model is usually no more than 3-5w off for some people. Still, I don't hang my hat on the number blindly and define training and pacing goals off if it. For that we do 60 min time trials (during racing season) or just use the data gathered through the many many training sessions. All that data really gives me a better picture as to where the real CP is. The reason I is the CP model is because it is reasonable reliable, it makes testing easier for the athlete and the results makes easier to track improvements. At the same time, it helps me identify weaknesses and set up goals. Also, power is so ever changing day after day due to fitness-fatigue that I rarely set a definitive number when talking about it and usually use a range to describe it i.e. CP is around ~265-270w ETA - I also use the testing for performance modeling! I assume you're using Raceday (or a Raceday analogue) for your modeling since you work with Dr. Skiba? I use it as well. I had someone tell me to use 3 or 4 min as my weekly performance test. So you use the 5 min test both for calculating CP and for plugging into the model? I was thinking I'd do that to be most efficient. I think Skiba defaults to 3 min for calculating CP, so I was wondering if I should just do 20 min and 3 min for CP. What are your thoughts on that? |
| 2010-10-06 11:35 AM in reply to: #3135988 |
Master 1572 Baltimore | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement JoshKaptur - 2010-10-06 11:33 AM Setting a watts goal far in advance is like seytting a time goal months out from a race... can lead to stupid training. I'd set your goals in terms of consistency of the workouts, or riding a certain number of minutes at 95% of FTP per week, or something like that. Re-test often and train smart for the best advances. But realistically, if your goal is 25 watts or 35 watts or 50 watts, isn't your training going to be exactly the same? I totally disagree. I have a stretch goal. I'm not exactly sure what it will take to get there. So I work for a month, retest and get a new baseline. I can now reevaluate that goal and my training to meet it - do I need to do more of the "optional" workouts in Jorge's plan (if the new one has optional ones)? What will that do to my run/swim? Am I willing to make that trade-off? Then I either keep on with the same or change something up to optimize my training. If I just do the workouts, I don't know where I stand and can't evaluate my options if I'm short. I'm driven by meeting goals, maybe you're not, but it is a big motivator for me. Quantitative feedback, positive or negative, is what I crave, hence spending waaaaay to much money on a PM. Maybe it's a complicated approach to some, but it's just how I operate. |
| 2010-10-06 11:39 AM in reply to: #3135360 |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement I too wonder about the accuracy of the 5 and 20 min testing protocol, but they're much easier to do on a regular basis than a 60 min effort. Yeah 60 min is really tough both mentally and physically. 20 min is tough if you do it right but it doesn't drain you the same way. But realistically, if your goal is 25 watts or 35 watts or 50 watts, isn't your training going to be exactly the same? I think you need to look, specifically at what you're trying to improve... see the next item: Some people are MUCH better at pacing/pushing/physically at the shorter distances and this can skew the numbers one way or the other This is something I emailed Jorge about. My numbers skew up pretty high on short anaerobic efforts. Most of the terrain where I live consists of short, steep hills. I can push myself into overdrive for 2-5 minute efforts, way beyond my CP number. But my 20 minute sustained power lags behind. So I'm tailoring my workouts to focus on the longer interval sets in the 90-100% power range. |
| 2010-10-06 11:39 AM in reply to: #3135835 |
Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement JorgeM - 2010-10-06 9:51 AM AndrewMT - 2010-10-06 9:03 AM your wasn't that much off, specially considering the pacing at your 40K TT was a bit offjsiegs - 2010-10-06 8:57 AM newbz - 2010-10-06 9:27 AM FWIW, I dont know how strong you are on the bike right now, but if you are in a just maintaining mode, you will see some solid gains over the winter (i dont think 20 watts is much of a stretch at all if you are smart). FWIW in two years training with power i watched mine go up aprox 50 watts (and this was after 2 years of solid racing). If you focus on that over the winter there is no reason not to see big gains, but you'll have to be A) smart about it, B) stick with it (see A), and C) learn to love to hurt. Where does that 260 put you watts to Kg wise right now? Also, and this is more personal experience than anything, but the 5 and 20 min test pegged my FTP a lot higher than either the 2x20min or a 60min TT. Some people are MUCH better at pacing/pushing/physically at the shorter distances and this can skew the numbers one way or the other (although if you stick with the same test it really should not matter, as the trend is what you really should be tracking anyway). get a good set of fans and enjoy the winter of fun! (ps if you want to have some real nasty fun sometime try a hard set of intervals with and without the fan and watch the power output dif between the two sets;-) Thanks for the advice. 262 puts me at 3.6 W/kg. I'd do the longer tests, but most likely outside, not inside. I could probably do it once inside, then I'd hate it so much I wouldn't test nearly enough. So I really want 38 W - hit that magic 300 W...I guess I'll wait until next year though. 25-30 might be a good goal though. I'd rather stretch it a bit and have to work my butt off to try to hit it, even if I fall a bit short than set too easy a target. 290 W gets me 4 W/kg, which may be a good goal. And if I can't hit it through wattage increase, I can always lose the few extra pounds I'm carrying. More importantly, for triathlon anyway, worry about the W/CdA ratio! I too wonder about the accuracy of the 5 and 20 min testing protocol, but they're much easier to do on a regular basis than a 60 min effort. It certainly seems to be pretty close, and as I stated, I'd much rather do the 5 & 20 min tests regularly than a 60min TT! I just think a 5 min effort (and to a lesser extent a 20 min effort) can be so variable based on how the athlete is feeling that day. I know the model is pretty accurate, but garbage in = garbage out!! |
| 2010-10-06 11:40 AM in reply to: #3135890 |
Master 1572 Baltimore | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement KathyG - 2010-10-06 11:07 AM Good advice shared already. One thing folks need to learn when they first get a PM is how to execute the 20' and 5' tests well. Often folks don't pace evenly or don't go hard enough so it may take them 2-3 times testing to get it right. I'm not advising doing 2-3 tests in a short amount of time but it is a learned skill. One way to see how you did is look at your vi to see if your average watts and normalize power are the same or close. If it the vi is great than say 1.02 you didn't execute well. If you tested poorly the first time you will see more gains than if you tested well the first time. I think Endurance Nation posts the gains their folks get following their out season plan and I think the number is real but in context inflated a bit for two reasons. 1. Folks start out of season or winter plan when they get back on the trainer. Many people test lower and have harder time putting out same watts on trainer for many reasons. If you test before you have adapted back to hard trainer rides, number will be lower than it would be if you have adapted to trainer work again. 2. As I stated above many people haven't don't enough testing to know how to execute well so don't push as much as they can so again their power numbers are lower than they would have been if they had executed their test well. So by doing testing on regular basis at the end of the program they will have learned how to test well and that raises their testing results. Only you know how well you did your first test. What was your VI on your 20' test? How long have you been cycling? Those factors will help you set your goals. For me my trainer FTP is lower than my outside FTP early on when I'm still adapting to trainer. The two get closer together through winter. Once I get outside and ride 6 weeks my FTP jumps up another ~20 watts to my normal summer fitness FTP. So you will see gains through winter, but expect more once you get back on the road next spring. So perhaps set two goals...trainer goal and next summer peak fitness goal. Sorry - what's VI? ETA: nm, I know how to use google  Edited by jsiegs 2010-10-06 11:41 AM |
| 2010-10-06 12:41 PM in reply to: #3136195 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement jsiegs - 2010-10-06 11:25 AM I assume you're using Raceday (or a Raceday analogue) for your modeling since you work with Dr. Skiba? I use it as well. I had someone tell me to use 3 or 4 min as my weekly performance test. So you use the 5 min test both for calculating CP and for plugging into the model? I was thinking I'd do that to be most efficient. I think Skiba defaults to 3 min for calculating CP, so I was wondering if I should just do 20 min and 3 min for CP. What are your thoughts on that? The winter plan v3.0 will have testing done as 20 and 3 min just as FYI |
| 2010-10-06 1:04 PM in reply to: #3135846 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement JorgeM - 2010-10-06 8:55 AM newbz - 2010-10-06 8:27 Also, and this is more personal experience than anything, but the 5 and 20 min test pegged my FTP a lot higher than either the 2x20min or a 60min TT. Some people are MUCH better at pacing/pushing/physically at the shorter distances and this can skew the numbers one way or the other (although if you stick with the same test it really should not matter, as the trend is what you really should be tracking anyway). get a good set of fans and enjoy the winter of fun! (ps if you want to have some real nasty fun sometime try a hard set of intervals with and without the fan and watch the power output dif between the two sets;-) My experience coaching athletes is that the CP model is usually no more than 3-5w off for some people. Still, I don't hang my hat on the number blindly and define training and pacing goals off if it. For that we do 60 min time trials (during racing season) or just use the data gathered through the many many training sessions. All that data really gives me a better picture as to where the real CP is. The reason I is the CP model is because it is reasonable reliable, it makes testing easier for the athlete and the results makes easier to track improvements. At the same time, it helps me identify weaknesses and set up goals. Also, power is so ever changing day after day due to fitness-fatigue that I rarely set a definitive number when talking about it and usually use a range to describe it i.e. CP is around ~265-270w ETA - I also use the testing for performance modeling! just a quick question to go from this, How much would an athletes specific training play into how those dif test distances figure into 60min power? (ie would a 1k track cyclist skew the numbers on the shorter tests enough to be off in any meaningful amount for 60 min power? |
| 2010-10-06 2:27 PM in reply to: #3136502 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Got the Powermeter...now to set goals for FTP improvement newbz - 2010-10-06 1:04 PM just a quick question to go from this, How much would an athletes specific training play into how those dif test distances figure into 60min power? (ie would a 1k track cyclist skew the numbers on the shorter tests enough to be off in any meaningful amount for 60 min power? Critical Power (CP) is based on Monod et all model published in 1965. CP was defined as sustainable power without "fatigue." although it has proven the model loses robustness on long duration effort (mainly over 60 min) but it is reasonable accurate up to 60 min. This is because most efforts over 2 min are aerobic in nature and there is a close relationship between time exhaustion, sustainable power and other parameters such as maximum lactate steady state. In other words, the model helps predicts the highest energy rate that can be sustained without drawing energy from anaerobic energy sources also referred as anaerobic work capacity (AWC) Because of the impact of anaerobic work capacity (AWC), too short tests will result in an overestimation of CP while too long ones will likely underestimate. Evidence suggests the best results are obtained with test durations of 3-5mins to 20-mins. In fact, there evidence that a 3 min test called "blow out test" in which basically the athlete goes as hard as possible since the beginning without trying to pace the effort starting from the highest possible power and hanging on to dear life until the completion of the test. This allows to empty all AWC (or energy from anaerobic sources) and what's left in the average of the last ~30 seconds or so is highly related what your power for 1 hr. i.e. the first 5 seconds your power might be super high and the curve will drop to the right dramatically until it stabilizes for the last ~30 sec of the test. The problem is that this is a very tough test to execute well. Anyway, while it is certain some athletes can be better at holding short maximal efforts, the drop between your 20 min power and critical power (60 min) shouldn't be too (when paced correctly) much due to the relationships explained above. For durations over 60 min the reliability of the model begins to fall apart because other things come into play such as endurance, muscle fatigue resistance. Of course and to quote A. Coggan "the best performance predictor is performance itself" meaning to know the power you can generate over 60 min, then ride as hard as you can for 60 min. But, in my experience the CP model is a great way to test often, estimate CP, and address particualr weaknesses. |
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