NCAA and Indian Mascots (Page 2)

I have always looked at the names as been associated with honor and not weakness or poking fun @ the different tribes.

Absolutely!!!!!!

Me too, with a few exceptions: I don't like the word "redskin" for the same reason African Americans don't like the N word. I also don't like "Squaw". Historically these were demeaning terms. I know that people are going to use those words and there is not much I can do about it except ask them not to in my presence, but they bother me a lot. Brave does not bug me the same way but that came into vogue in the 50's and was mostly used in bad westerns.

The ridiculous thing is that the NCAA has banned only those nicknames that they fel are "hostile" or "abusive" and yet has refused to define those terms. Of course they have already allowed certain exceptions to their new rule, University of North Carolina- Pembroke "Braves" because that universities student body has 20% Native Americans. WTF!!!!

So the term "Brave" is OK if you have a certain percentage of Native American students? Because of this percentage the term is now not "hostile" or "offensive"

In it's report the NCAA commends schools like Wisconsin and Iowa for their proactive role in refusing to schedule games against teams with Indian mascots. Oh really, don't both Wisconsin and Iowa play Illinios every year, you know the Illini...

And what about teams like the Scotsman, the Irish, what about teams that are named Warrior but don't use Native American regalia?

This is such P.C. crap!!! The NCAA has become an institution that has become held hostage by vocal extreme liberalism and ridiculous academia.

What's great is it doesn't effect Football at the D1 level because there is no official NCAA championship event. Look for FSU to have gigantic "SEMINOLES" written on the Football uniforms at the next bowl game.

I graduated from Indiana University of Pennsylvania, which is located in Indiana, PA.  Yes, the school's nickname is the Indians, and the mascot had always been an Indian.  While I was at school there ('98 - '02), people got caught up in the PC and our mascot changed from an Indian to a bear (why a bear, I have no idea).  But they kept the Indian as the nickname, which was stupid.  Anyway, the point of all this...  the school is named after the town, and the town is named after the fact that in 1768, the land was purchased from the Iroquois Nation, which lived on the land.  "Indian County" became Indiana County.  So, shouldn't we change the name of the town and the county????  Seems offensive to me.

Shouldn't you be called the IUP Fighting Stewarts....short for Jimmy Stewart who you seem to worship there? :P

I'm still hoping they don't pick on vegetable next!

I mean, what would one do without the Delta State "Fighting Okra" ????

Mississippians would never be the same!

I think this is all ridiculous. I think there are more important things to worry about on the college scene. Why stop with native americans? Vikings have already been mentioned. But, what about the Irish? Spartans? Trojans?

The University of Utah got permission from the Ute nation to use the name for their mascot. They did change the mascot from an indian to "Swoop" a red-tailed hawk to be more PC.

um, because the Irish, Spartans, Vikings, Trojans, etc haven't (barely) survived the genocide and subsequent humiliation and economic and social abuse committed by our government.

I think there is a difference between PC and Respect, and it is painful to read that so many people feel that to be respectful is merely being PC. And I realize that I am the lone voice on this thread in favor of dropping offensive ethnic "mascots" names from sports teams, and I really didn;t want to get into this, but... well, here I am.

Possum I am 100% agaisnt offensive mascot names. I think that the name "Redskins" is horrible and upsetting. I also think that a school using a name, such as Seminole and respecting and honoring my tribe is not offensive and has been heavily discussed in the Nations Newspapers. Certainly there is not concensus but a majority of the Nation is not offended or bothered or even thinks about it most of the time.

Many more members of the Nation are very upset by the term "Redskin" because, to many of us, it is akin to the N word.

My take on it is that there is so much poverty and alcoholism on the rez and off that there are other things that we could be focusing our energies toward.

Edited by nliedel 2005-08-09 6:49 AM

But remember what is offensive to one isn't necessarily offensive to another. I work with good friends who are african american and they call themselves the N word. It has alot to do with context. I go to a bar near the firehouse that is called Redskins and guess what the owner is a quarter Cherokee. BTW I take no offense to being called a cracker ass cracker, as I was the other day by a crackhead on a medical call.

Edited by smokeater1833 2005-08-09 7:40 AM

Ummm well me calling me an NDN is not the same as someone who is not NA calling me an Indian or a "Squaw" (indian does not bother me but there are a lot of us it does). Sure African Americans call themselves the N word. Does not give me liscense to. No, that dork should not have called you that but in the end he won't remember doing it or you

I guess what gets my goat more than anything, besides everyone seeming to have "indian blood" Please note I am NOT saying that people who claim it do not have it but there is a sect of people who claim it and maybe they do and maybe they don't but they spend a lot of time trying to be "authentic" and.. well authentic ain't always pretty and has little to do with the good looking "princess" on the hill with her hair flying behind her as she chases deer through the forest. It's a nice fairytale and fairytales are great things but not reality based in the end.

There are a lot of people out there who say something to the effect of "Well we will call them Native Americans" and that will make them happy" then they go way out of the way to make sure I know how wonderfully PC they are and they ask me questions like I am a zoo specimin. One lady at Pow Wow was asking me about whether I wanted to live in a Tipi to get back to my roots. Ummm yeah.. I am mostly Seminole and we did not live in Tipi's but I can make a mean alligator steak (that was a joke. I don't like aligator). She then went on about how all of us are so spiritual and it was so wonderful how we worshipped nature. Hated to break it to her (and in the end I just smiled and nodded) but a lot of NDN's are Christian and not really nature worshippers. Some even like Nascar and stuff we even watch TV.

She was painting us into a corner of what she expected us to be like. I felt like some sort of curious pet and all of a sudden it became very clear what people who are small or dark skinned or different in some way are really unhappy about. It really is just about being accepted as human too. WHAP! Nancy here's a wake up call! OK then.. I treat people differently now because of that encounter.

There is an excellent movie out there called Smoke Signals. It is really a great story and is a classic journey to manhood story about two young men on a rez and a new take on a classic theme. One of the boys is a storyteller and how he weaves historic stories with modern life is enchanting and a new direction for native tales. I just love that movie. It paints a realistic picture of modern Native American life. If you like good movies this is one to rent.

So I guess what I am saying is that being PC for the sake of being PC is nice and all but there is so much more to it than that.

Edited by nliedel 2005-08-09 8:02 AM

what marginalized groups call each other is completely different from when a power group uses that same term. Especially when that term was once used by the power group in a derogatory way. My friends and I call each other dykes all the time, but it is NOT cool for a straight person to use that term. Blacks, gays, women, etc often take what was once a word used to keep people down and re-employ it as a way to take the power out of the word.

Additonally, there is very little sting in a word like "cracker" as white people have never been institutionally degraded by an economic and politically more powerful group. Very few white people would take offense at being called a cracker, I imagine....That word never kept us down.

Good Grief Possum would someone ever call you a Dyke to your face? Oh wow... I have used the term Fag with my gay male friends but I know them pretty well and it is not a big deal. I would not walk up to your average gay male and use that term. Of course they call me a Fag Hag Indian Squaw so it's all good and this is based on a long standing friendship, never anything I would take from your average joe on the street.

The truth of the matter is I am so painfully ignorant that I would not know the term "Cracker" was an insult.



Edited by nliedel 2005-08-09 8:06 AM

Nancy wrote: "She was painting us into a corner of what she expected us to be like. I felt like some sort of curious pet and all of a sudden it became very clear what people who are small or dark skinned or different in some way are really unhappy about. It really is just about being accepted as human too. WHAP! Nancy here's a wake up call! OK then.. I treat people differently now because of that encounter."

That's exactly what a mascot is: a curious little pet, often charicaturized, stereotyped, or reduced to a single aspect of that "pet" When used as mascots, Indians are depicted exclusively as warriors, for example. And to use a whole nation of peopel, Seminoles, for example, as a "mascot" for a football team? Sorry. I think it is horrible. The message to me? "Well, we've killed em all off or corralled them like animals to live in horrible conditions where they must adapt to our way of living, but now we are going to make it up to them by using them as a symbol of our athletic prowess!" ick.

Uh, yeah.
And behind my back when they think I can't hear which is even worse.
I've been disinvited to weddings once I said my date would be my partner. I've had my job threatened by parents who are quite convinced I must be a pedophile to want to work with children. I've had my car "decorated." I've had teenagers scream "DYKES!" at the top of their lungs as they drive by and try to run us off the road (the irony is that I was walking with a bunch of straight women!)

this is a bit of an aside, but since you asked...

I just don't understand that and I know that is ignorance on my part because there are people out there who hate for hates sake. I know it, I see it but I cannot understand it. I live in this bubble of liberalism and the rest of the world is not like that. I talk to my kids about people not liking them based on race (the Hispanic boys) and I know the day is coming when someone will say something and really hurt them. I am sick that I have to guard my kids against that.

When i was growing up my parents had several "dinner party friends" (dinner parties were an art unlike anything I have ever done.. good grief those things were practically a religion) and they had all kinds of people over all the time. One couple they had on a regular basis happened to be two women. It was a pretty salacious scandal in our small town. One of the women was a mother of two who had left her husband for her girlfriend. I cannot imagine coming out in a town as small as Grand Haven in the mid 70's shudder... anyway.. it was no big deal to either my sister or myself because it was never commented on and normal in our world. I once made an ignorant "someone else said it so I did it" crack about a man down the street who was gay, also my parents friend and the reaming I got from my incensed mother scared me into learning to never ever judge someone based on sexuality... EVER. She was pretty amazing.. I can still hear her yelling in my face that sexuality was not a choice and having a problem with who someone loves would be akin to someone not liking me cause my eyes were green. OK now I am missing her again.. crud.


Anyway. I know that stuff happens all the time but I want to believe it is isolated and does not happen in the real world and I am just fooling myself.

Of course if the "marginalized" group doesn't feel they are being degraded or that the use of thier name, likeness or dress is offensive or hostile, as is the case with the Seminole Tribe of Florida or the Utes of Utah, then how can you turn to them and say that the term is offensive? In essence you are saying to them that they should be offended and that they should view the use of their name as being used in a "hostile" manner. If they don't feel that way, which again the Seminole Tribe of Florida has specifically said they don't, then how can you with a straight face tell the Seminole Tribe, or the Ute Tribe of Utah, taht they should be offended?

There is not a difference between the Irish, Spartans, or Vikings, at least according to the NCAA. In a e-mail responce I received to an inquirey I made regarding this rule change, I was told that : "the NCAA objects to colleges and universities using
racial/ethnic/national origin references in their intercollegiate athletics programs and events"

There is no mention that this concern is only for "abused" ethnicities, or ethnicities that have suffered institutional abuse or genocide. It is in fact listed as a race/ethnic neutral conern. That is; a concern for the use of ANY racial/ethnic/ or national origin reference. By it's own rule the NCAA has specifically included terms like Irish, Scotsman ect.

Additionally, the NCAA has granted exemptions to Universities with names like "Braves" (UNC Pembrock)because the insitution has a certaine percentage of their student body made up of native Americans.

Either a term is "hostile/offensive" or it's not. the make up of your student body doesn't change the offensive character of the term. Additionally, the NCAA has refused to define the terms "offensive" or "hostile".

So apparently, "Brave" is Ok, but Seminole is not, despite the fact that the "offended" people don't view the use of their name as offensive.

The fact is that univeristies use nicknames as a sign of respect, thus there isn't a whole lot of teams called "The weeklings" or "The wussies". (Florida Stae University picked the nickname "Seminoles" for a specific purpose, there is a link to the State of Florida with the Seminole Nation, they are the only "unconquerred Native American Tribe, the are linked historically to the state and the region, and they represent qualities that the University felt were honorable and of high quality, so I guess that's offensive) You said it yourself, when you said you are in favor of dropping "offensive" ethnic mascots. But the NCAA won't define what is offensive, and in my schools case, the people for which the school is named after have specifically said, in a decree issued by the Tirbal Council that they do not feel the nickname is offensive, and to the contrary they specifically support and grant permission for it's use.

But, I guess the NCAA and others are in a better position to tell the Seminole Tribe of Florida that they should be offended. I guess the tribal Council is just too stupid to figure out that they should be offended by F.S.U.'s use of the name Seminole and the likeness of Chief Osceola. The fact is that this is driven by ultra-liberalism, P.C.ism, and White-mans guilt.

Sigh.. that is bass akwards... Brave is not hot with most of us and the name of the nation is no biggie... But the NCAA says.... I am not liking any organization telling my people how we should feel about our identity and how we elect to use it. I am all good with somone like Possum posting her views because she is not a large governing body telling me that I have to be offended and that I should feel X.

That, in my mind, comes awful close to some past grievences I have regarding the founding of the Seminole Nation in the first dog gone place (trail of tears etc) and being herded onto reservations for our "own good" because we "did not know any better'..

If most of us are not offended who is the NCAA to come along and say "well you should be offended. Because you are not offended we are going to be offended for you and change all the names" then they pat the nice little indian on the head and give him a lollipop and send the little ignorant savage on his way back to the trailer park without air conditioning in the Florida swamp and a sub standard school... Or better yet say. "We no like-um rule for you. we fix um rule. huh" and do a rain dance to show their oneness. They should also do it in deerskin regalia while smoking a peace pipe.. Getting irritated here and need to back off and go play with my toys for a while. Today's toy adgenda includes paying for the shore excursions on our cruise! FUN STUFF!

Sorry to rant but I think that most of us are pretty doggone smart and know what's what. No not all of us and, as I say a lot, I don't speak for any group that I happen to be a part of. Just lil ole me.

Edited to say that where I spoke of the Trail of Tears it was sort of a dumbing down of the history of the Seminoles and I could have included a lot about the Seminole wars but I find the history of battles and wars boring as heck.

Edited by nliedel 2005-08-09 9:32 AM

I guess then again there are people who are too damn sensitive about being called a multitude of things, baldy, fatty, and every slang term ever invented. I guess I need some sensitivity training. That's what 4 yrs in the military and working in the fire service has done to me. Nothing anyone says bothers me. I have heard it all. The world is an ugly place but this crap with mascot and team names is another example of the liberals acting foolish. What's next, is Clinton going to go on CNN and ask Bush to give everyone who has Indian blood something. Hell we all know the Indians out all the people in this country were screwed the most.

Careful there Fire Boy! I am one O dem damn liberals ya'll messing with! Although I am not for reparations.

That's right. For taking my ancestors land I want a new P3! and a wetsuit... a lifetime supply of Clif shots and... ummm I know there is more.

Sorry, but I stand by my statement. Andrew Jackson used the term "Redskins" all the time. He also stated, when asked if the soldiers should kill the women and children in one of the Seminole wars that "Nits make lice".

You would not name a team the N's would you?