Tactics during a race (Page 2)

This. I'm ALL for tactics, but  in IMHO not all tactics are created equal. For instance to gain a mental advantage (using examples from this thread) 1.) you could say something deceiving to a competitor to gain a mental advantage or 2.) you could kick it up a notch to turn a corner, thus being out of sight of the competitor, quenching his/her desire to chase.

To me, one of those is the more honorable tactic.

At the FOP things are probably different and they should be able to deal with some mind games. But there is a big difference in tactics like surging to get out of sight and something like making a sound like a leaking tire to cause someone to think they are getting a flat.

In the MOP where I aspire to be, I tell someone when I'm trying to beat them. It's a totally good natured, friendly competition with fair warning. The fact that we are near each other on the run and in the same age group means we are a good competitive match for each other.

Never show pain.  No grimices on your face, no mouth hanging wide open gasping, especially if the other guys looks like he's suffering.  Other than that Shane's rundown was pretty good and some stuff I've done.  I only do that sort of stuff if it's someone who matters (my AG) and it's on the run.  I also have to feel confident whatever strategy I employ won't break me as well.

I generally don't say anything, because even with the best intentions, i.e. trying to be encouraging not tactical, a "good job" or "nice run" can sound really bad as you're passing or breaking away from someone.

ETA: I thought I made a pretty good move at my last 5k.  I was running even with someone, battling for 3rd.  We got to a sharp turn and a short really steep hill.  He made a move on it, and I purposely held back to conserve energy, then took off at the top and passed him while he was gassed from the hill and he couldn't accelerate to stay with me.  I put space between us he never made up.  It was probably with about 0.5 miles to go.

you ppl need to relax. those "tactics" followed by little faces were taken, for humorous purposes, from other (recent) threads...especially the one about the snot. lol...geez. i've been behind many a competitor and gotten sprayed by whatever...it's part of racing...if you don't like it, get out of the draft zone. in fact, just stay home and don't race if you can't handle a little competition.

if you need a little red sarcastic font for every single sentence, sorry...you're not going to get it here. move on.

back to the topic...one tactic that i've been subjected to is the "boxed in" tactic. some of the ppl i've raced against box in faster runners, thus requiring them to use more energy by dropping back a bit, then steering clear of the box. i don't really care for that one, but it happens.

some of the really good runners hang on to the back of the front pack until the last 2/3 of the race, then crank it up hard. this one really catches runners off guard and can cause them to blow up way before the finish...

to me, racing is about being a good sportsman.  I don't do anything to disrupt the focus or psychology of other racers, and certainly dislike those that do.

If I beat out someone, I want it to be fair and square and not because of head games.

Depends on the nature of the head game.  To me, head games are fair and square. 

I hate to tell you this but psychology is a huge part of sports.  I don't agree with making rude comments but competition tactics are used in almost sport out there.  Gaining an edge over a competitor because you know when their weakness can be exploited is all part of it. 

Best tactic for me is to compete against the course and know my strengths. I think a simple great tactic for me is to run negative splits. I don't think you'll have any trouble passing someone at the end if you are negging and they are dieing, unless they are just hanging on for a podium spot and leaving some in the tank or something. But if you run your own race and try and get the best time you can hopefully you've got the guts at the end if needed to podium.

I used to be a lot more "tactic" oriented when I ran track in HS, but that was different because the competition meant a lot more to me and the team. Back then I would draft and kick like hell the last 200m during a 400 or 800 and mentally break people with my kick/2nd half. But now, it's really me vs. the course instead of me vs. others. Who cares if you win your age group in the local tri... I'd rather know that I did the best I could and followed my own plan. Now if you're at some sort of championship or something, then tactics will probably play a role, but 99% of the people here aren't at that level.

As others have said, you can control what you do, but not what others do. I would feel ashamed to win by some chicken talk like "this course is MUCH more difficult the second time around". Do you really want to have a bad reputation at local events?

Along those same lines, if you are running vs the course and running your own race, you probably won't care if someone is surging up hills or around corners. You'll be doing what it takes to run the fastest time which is key.

Tactics? I suppose it depends. If you are racing to win, don't let the other guys or girls you are racing against pass you unless you are certain you can catch up to them and pass sometime before the race ends.  The whole psych out your opponent with "head games or cleverly planned demoralazing attacks" talk is silly.

If you are looking to finish or personal best, figure out where you need to be power or HR wise and stick with it.

Am I missing something? 

How was this a lie? Did you read the original post? I think not... 2 x 5K loop...same loop.

LOL.  That's a good tactic!

You can measure what you think is your perfect HR to run at, but there is that human factor that some people can dig a little deeper when challenged. That's why I try to keep up with faster runners. I know I don't push my absolute limits on my own, that's what I go to races for, to wring that last drop of effort out of myself. I might be racing for 57th place, but I love a good sprint to the finish against someone of similar ability.

And I can attest to the fact that I have less drive to chase if someone pulls out of sight. So that's one tactic that works on me at least.

And this is where tactics get really interesting.  Be able to use psychology against an opponent but protect yourself from their efforts and run your own race.   Elite athletes do work with psychologists to hone this ability. I recently got to listen to Dr. Doug Jowdy who worked with Apollo Ohno discuss sports psychology and it was fascinating.  We spend hours upon hours training our bodies but very little time training our minds on how to deal with race environments, training stresses etc. 

I totally agree with you - if peolpe have an issue with my tactics and it causes me to beat you (or for you to finish slower) then just ignore me.  You are well within your rights to do so.  it 100% negates anyone else's tactics as well.  If you don't want to play my games, don't, and your race won't be affected.  In addition, chasing people down and distancing myself from them is a huge motivational tool for me, so I do it, tactic or not. 

 I'll be honest here, if I'm battling for a podium spot, I'd rather finish 20 seconds slower and in 3rd than 20 seconds faster and in 4th (i.e. my tactics may make my race overall slower because of the surges/inefficiency, but it's worth it if I can finish higher because of it).  If is the difference between 20th and 21st, I may just choose to run my race.

If I inhibit your race with blocking/lying/snot rockets etc (where you can't choose to ignore me) is different IMHO and not really cool WRT to triathlons, since it's an individual sport.  However, in track races, bike races and other places, blocking and positioning strategy are as important as fitness in winning a race.  If I use other tactics (surges, etc) and you play my games with me...that's on you, and your fault if you get beat because of it.  Long story short - just igonore everyone else, and their tactics are irrelivent to your race.

I think the human factor is that you didn't have the motivation or "freshness" to dig that deep when you measured it, so you measured it wrong.  Looking for "something special on race day" is a bad idea IMHO, becuase going bigger in a race than your training has allowed for has ruined countless races.

uhum...isn't he saying he will ignore others?  alot of words telling a guy to ignore you when he already said he does. 

Yes, when I said "seriously" I meant I was agreeing with him in his advice to people who don't like playing games or using tactics.  Perhaps it could have been clearer

My garmin 305 has been a blessing... I don't get caught up with what others are doing because I'm really pushing my pace not theirs... I know what it takes to run negative splits and still have a strong kick. I think that's really all I need in terms of tactics, and probably is enough to disrupt those who I pass.

Just run like Spock and don't let you're emotions, psychology mess with you, and you will run the best race you can regardless of tactics. If you gave 100% and someone beats you, well then they are faster... Maybe you could have screwed with them, but that would probably negatively affect your results as well. Again, I'm speaking from the perspective of an amateur sportsman, not a professional.

Being an would be like coughing on the golf course during someone's put for the win. Sure you could give yourself an advantage, but really what type of dick does that?

For FOP racers tactics and psychology can be a huge thing.  Look no further than Macca, he talks a lot, and some people love him for it and some people hate him for it but whatever way you slice it if you can get an edge by getting under someone's skin at the top level like he does, power to you.  Thats the psychology side but if you watch this interview with him ( http://youtu.be/VNggDtOtBzA ) you can see he's also a very good race tactician.

Same thing in pro cycling, you have to be careful about what you say about who.  For some people what shows up in the media can serve as a distraction and psychology can be a great tool, while for others the trash talk about them will give them an edge.  Back when Lance was racing after his first couple tours his competitors started to realize that he had a great memory of the people that cut him down, and he responded on the race course.

Thaaaaaat being said, if you're at the local tri it sprint triathlon coming off your Ironman glory and trying to break people with your words, well payback/karma is a....

Well this one 5 Mile run, I was trying to beat this 9 year old kid. He was out way faster than me so I slowly reeled him in. I caught him at mile 4 and thought about pushing him over so I wouldn't get beat by a 9 year old, but I decided to just try and beat him the old fashioned way. Bad move. This little dude took off the last 1/4 mile and smoked me by a good 20 seconds. I think I should have gone the physical route and taken him out.

/sarcasm

But he really did beat me.