General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Is 4:30 doable for me? Rss Feed  
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2011-05-24 10:41 AM

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Subject: Is 4:30 doable for me?

I have my first HIM coming up on June 18th, and I'm hoping to be around 4:30. I'm wondering if others think this time is a reasonable goal.

The good thing is that biking is my strongest leg, follwed by running and swimming.

Over the past year I've made a point of significantly upping my swim and run volume, and at the same time I've also raised my FTP by about 5-10%. My FTP is currently around 315-320 watts, and my w/kg is 4.2

I've been averaging around 40,000 yards/month since January in the pool, around 500 miles/month on the bike, and I'm currently in the 6th week of a marathon plan and right around 45-50 mpw for running.

Based on my training, my goal splits are as follows:

swim: > 33 minutes

bike: > 2:25

run: > 1:30

So, based on your experience, does my time goal seem somewhat reasonable? I know a lot of factors come into play, including weather, mechanical issues, nutrition, etc., but let's say everything goes pretty well. Both the run and bike courses are quite flat.

My logs are up to date, if that helps.



2011-05-24 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
natethomas2000 - 2011-05-24 11:41 AM

I have my first HIM coming up on June 18th, and I'm hoping to be around 4:30. I'm wondering if others think this time is a reasonable goal.

The good thing is that biking is my strongest leg, follwed by running and swimming.

Over the past year I've made a point of significantly upping my swim and run volume, and at the same time I've also raised my FTP by about 5-10%. My FTP is currently around 315-320 watts, and my w/kg is 4.2

I've been averaging around 40,000 yards/month since January in the pool, around 500 miles/month on the bike, and I'm currently in the 6th week of a marathon plan and right around 45-50 mpw for running.

Based on my training, my goal splits are as follows:

swim: > 33 minutes

bike: > 2:25

run: > 1:30

So, based on your experience, does my time goal seem somewhat reasonable? I know a lot of factors come into play, including weather, mechanical issues, nutrition, etc., but let's say everything goes pretty well. Both the run and bike courses are quite flat.

My logs are up to date, if that helps.

 

I'm assuming you are doing the Patriot and from the numbers you've posted.  I definitely think it's doable. Patriot Bike has changed and to me it's flatter than it was last year. What are you planning to do for Transition times? Last year as you probably know was very very muggy, with that being said if everything goes as planned. I definitely think you will be able to reach your goal.

 

Scott 

2011-05-24 10:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
natethomas2000 - 2011-05-24 11:41 AM

I have my first HIM coming up on June 18th, and I'm hoping to be around 4:30. I'm wondering if others think this time is a reasonable goal.

The good thing is that biking is my strongest leg, follwed by running and swimming.

Over the past year I've made a point of significantly upping my swim and run volume, and at the same time I've also raised my FTP by about 5-10%. My FTP is currently around 315-320 watts, and my w/kg is 4.2

I've been averaging around 40,000 yards/month since January in the pool, around 500 miles/month on the bike, and I'm currently in the 6th week of a marathon plan and right around 45-50 mpw for running.

Based on my training, my goal splits are as follows:

swim: > 33 minutes

bike: > 2:25

run: > 1:30

So, based on your experience, does my time goal seem somewhat reasonable? I know a lot of factors come into play, including weather, mechanical issues, nutrition, etc., but let's say everything goes pretty well. Both the run and bike courses are quite flat.

My logs are up to date, if that helps.

Also change your ">" to "<"  

2011-05-24 11:02 AM
in reply to: #3515905

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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
natethomas2000 - 2011-05-24 10:41 AM

I have my first HIM coming up on June 18th, and I'm hoping to be around 4:30. I'm wondering if others think this time is a reasonable goal.

The good thing is that biking is my strongest leg, follwed by running and swimming.

Over the past year I've made a point of significantly upping my swim and run volume, and at the same time I've also raised my FTP by about 5-10%. My FTP is currently around 315-320 watts, and my w/kg is 4.2

I've been averaging around 40,000 yards/month since January in the pool, around 500 miles/month on the bike, and I'm currently in the 6th week of a marathon plan and right around 45-50 mpw for running.

Based on my training, my goal splits are as follows:

swim: > 33 minutes

bike: > 2:25

run: > 1:30

So, based on your experience, does my time goal seem somewhat reasonable? I know a lot of factors come into play, including weather, mechanical issues, nutrition, etc., but let's say everything goes pretty well. Both the run and bike courses are quite flat.

My logs are up to date, if that helps.

Boy I sure hope you can break 4:30.  I'm shooting for ~4:30-4:35 for BSLT70.3 in June, and I'm working with less fitness than you. 

For comparisons sake, I'll be about the same time on the swim, 3.8 w/kg on the bike(hoping for 2:30) and while I've been running far less than you, running is my strong suit and I should be under 90min. 

If you execute well, I would expect your goal to be within reach.  You have good volume and great consistency.  Just remember to pace the bike to allow you to run like you need to. 

2011-05-24 11:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
With just a quick review of your logs i think the 1:30 run is going to be a big ask.
2011-05-24 11:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?

bryancd - 2011-05-24 12:26 PM With just a quick review of your logs i think the 1:30 run is going to be a big ask.

I have a half marathon this weekend, and my goal is 1:23. If I'm able to get in that range, is 1:30 still a reach for the HIM? Would holding a 7:00 pace (around 1:32 overall) be more doable?



2011-05-24 11:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
From reading your past race reports you seem to do a pretty good job of hitting your targets and pacing. You know yourself, your injuries, and how committed you are to the time.

It will be a challenge on the run because as I read your reports, a 1:30 would be a PR for the HM distance. I have set run PRs during triathlons before and so I know it is possible, it just will be a very painful day for you.

2011-05-24 12:03 PM
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Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.

Edited by Fred Doucette 2011-05-24 12:05 PM
2011-05-24 12:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
Fred Doucette - 2011-05-24 12:03 PM
natethomas2000 - 2011-05-24 12:52 PM

bryancd - 2011-05-24 12:26 PM With just a quick review of your logs i think the 1:30 run is going to be a big ask.

I have a half marathon this weekend, and my goal is 1:23. If I'm able to get in that range, is 1:30 still a reach for the HIM? Would holding a 7:00 pace (around 1:32 overall) be more doable?

You are not really asking the right question. If the HM for a the way you think and if the HM training doesn't affect your tri training in any adverse way and if the conditions are perfect you might. The better approach imho would be to try to pace it at the best RPE/power/hr etc that you can. Actual time numbers like a 4:30 HIM depend on a lot of unpredictable factors that come in to play, especially the weather.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who raced IMTX this weekend who would concur!

Still, it's hard not to go into it with specific time goals.  The only thing more stupid than going into race with a specific time goal (which I'm doing) is to go into a race with specific qualification goals (which I'm doing).  Can't control the conditions or who shows up on race day.

Anyway, Nate, as I said before, I think you're on track for your goals.  Execution/pacing will be key.

Bryan, can you explain what it is in Nate's logs that makes you question his running?

2011-05-24 12:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
natethomas2000 - 2011-05-24 10:52 AM

bryancd - 2011-05-24 12:26 PM With just a quick review of your logs i think the 1:30 run is going to be a big ask.

I have a half marathon this weekend, and my goal is 1:23. If I'm able to get in that range, is 1:30 still a reach for the HIM? Would holding a 7:00 pace (around 1:32 overall) be more doable?



I agree very much with what Fred posted above. In regards to what you are asking, if you can run a 1:23 for an open half then yes, you are int he ballpark. I know that when I ran my first open half a few years ago I ran a 1:23 and was capable of running sub 1:30 at Vineman 70.3. However, if you had audited my training logs, I was running 100% of my runs at low 7, high 6 paces. I see too, much high 7 and 8 running in your logs.
2011-05-24 12:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
bryancd - 2011-05-24 1:15 PM
natethomas2000 - 2011-05-24 10:52 AM

bryancd - 2011-05-24 12:26 PM With just a quick review of your logs i think the 1:30 run is going to be a big ask.

I have a half marathon this weekend, and my goal is 1:23. If I'm able to get in that range, is 1:30 still a reach for the HIM? Would holding a 7:00 pace (around 1:32 overall) be more doable?

I agree very much with what Fred posted above. In regards to what you are asking, if you can run a 1:23 for an open half then yes, you are int he ballpark. I know that when I ran my first open half a few years ago I ran a 1:23 and was capable of running sub 1:30 at Vineman 70.3. However, if you had audited my training logs, I was running 100% of my runs at low 7, high 6 paces. I see too, much high 7 and 8 running in your logs.

I don't have any idea if you will be able to do it or not.  Seems like a reasonable, but challenging, goal--which is good.  But I'll disagree with Bryan that you need to be doing a lot of running at low-7, high-6 paces in order to run a 1:30.  If you are able to run a HM anywhere near 1:23, you have the ability to run 1:30 in an HIM.  Whether you will or not depends upon all the factors Fred mentioned (probably plus some more).



2011-05-24 12:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?

Thanks for the feedback!

I definitely understand that there are way too many variables to have a very specific time in mind for a longer race, but I like to do it anyway. For shorter races I am usually able to predict my time very accurately.

I'm currently following a Jack Daniels marathon plan, and his VDOT scale currently puts me around 55 or 56, which equates to a 1:23-1:24 open half marathon. Based on this scale, I've been almost spot on for a recent 5k and a 10k. My 'E' pace runs, which are in zone 1 and low zone 2 are in the 7:45-8:05 range, depending on weather and terrain. My tempo runs have been in the 6:25 range, and my interval pace for 1200's and 1-mile repeats is around 5:40-5:50.

I guess I'll just have to see how the day goes. I'm pretty confident that I'll be able to run well off 250 watts on the bike, which is around 78% power. As I said before, the bike and run courses are flat. I imagine that if the temps are in the 60's or 70's I'll do much better than on a 80 degree humid day.



Edited by natethomas2000 2011-05-24 12:37 PM
2011-05-24 12:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
JohnnyKay - 2011-05-24 11:27 AM
But I'll disagree with Bryan that you need to be doing a lot of running at low-7, high-6 paces in order to run a 1:30.  If you are able to run a HM anywhere near 1:23, you have the ability to run 1:30 in an HIM.  Whether you will or not depends upon all the factors Fred mentioned (probably plus some more).



No, I agree, if Nate can run a 1:23 open he's right there. In my N=1, to run that fast I was running my general aerobic runs at a higher pace then what I see in his logs which makes me think a 1:23 might also be a bit beyond his current run fitness.
2011-05-24 12:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
JohnnyKay - 2011-05-24 12:27 PM
bryancd - 2011-05-24 1:15 PM
natethomas2000 - 2011-05-24 10:52 AM

bryancd - 2011-05-24 12:26 PM With just a quick review of your logs i think the 1:30 run is going to be a big ask.

I have a half marathon this weekend, and my goal is 1:23. If I'm able to get in that range, is 1:30 still a reach for the HIM? Would holding a 7:00 pace (around 1:32 overall) be more doable?

I agree very much with what Fred posted above. In regards to what you are asking, if you can run a 1:23 for an open half then yes, you are int he ballpark. I know that when I ran my first open half a few years ago I ran a 1:23 and was capable of running sub 1:30 at Vineman 70.3. However, if you had audited my training logs, I was running 100% of my runs at low 7, high 6 paces. I see too, much high 7 and 8 running in your logs.

I don't have any idea if you will be able to do it or not.  Seems like a reasonable, but challenging, goal--which is good.  But I'll disagree with Bryan that you need to be doing a lot of running at low-7, high-6 paces in order to run a 1:30.  If you are able to run a HM anywhere near 1:23, you have the ability to run 1:30 in an HIM.  Whether you will or not depends upon all the factors Fred mentioned (probably plus some more).

I agree with Johnny.  Maybe different philosophies on run training, but I was able to go mid 1:20s for a stand alone HM and 1:30 for  HIM on very little running and with most of it being 7:30-8 min/mi. 

2011-05-24 12:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
AndrewMT - 2011-05-24 11:34 AM

I agree with Johnny.  Maybe different philosophies on run training, but I was able to go mid 1:20s for a stand alone HM and 1:30 for  HIM on very little running and with most of it being 7:30-8 min/mi. 



I would also agree with that, mid 1:20's on that kind of training pacing on a great day where it all clicks, you bet. The thin about throwing around half marathon times is that the time compression factor is high. There is a very meaningful difference in pace going from 1:25 to 1:20. It doesn't seem like much, but the race is just short enough that time get's very tight the faster you go it seems. It took me 3 years to go from 1:23 to 1:19, granted I didn't train or race halfs but it was still a challenge to be sure.
2011-05-24 12:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?

bryancd - 2011-05-24 1:33 PM
JohnnyKay - 2011-05-24 11:27 AM But I'll disagree with Bryan that you need to be doing a lot of running at low-7, high-6 paces in order to run a 1:30.  If you are able to run a HM anywhere near 1:23, you have the ability to run 1:30 in an HIM.  Whether you will or not depends upon all the factors Fred mentioned (probably plus some more).
No, I agree, if Nate can run a 1:23 open he's right there. In my N=1, to run that fast I was running my general aerobic runs at a higher pace then what I see in his logs which makes me think a 1:23 might also be a bit beyond his current run fitness.

Might be.  But I'm not sure comparing how you ran with how he's running is fair.  Doing easy runs at those paces is still very much in-line with the kind of time he is aiming for, especially if his tempo runs also fall in the right area (low-mid 6's).  His goals appear a stretch, but doable.  Which is what goals ought to be.



2011-05-24 12:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?

bryancd - 2011-05-24 1:44 PM

It took me 3 years to go from 1:23 to 1:19, granted I didn't train or race halfs but it was still a challenge to be sure.

And that may be the big difference.  I would bet you were probably 'capable' of going sub-1:23 in your first year (even if not 1:19).  But you weren't trained specifically to do so.  Your 'stretch' goals were focused elsewhere--for good reason--and that 1:23 was fairly 'comfortable'.  (I say those words knowing full well there is nothing truly 'comfortable' about running that hard--even for you! )

Also, even a 1:25 would tell me that on a good day he should be able to run near 1:30 in an HIM.

2011-05-24 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
I think you'll be off the bike before 2:25 if you're doing 260 watts assuming all the aero goodies and its flat as you mentioned.
2011-05-24 2:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
I would go for it but I think you might be stretching a bit on the bike and run. Hard to tell on the swim.

Bike: Your FTP is enough for a 2:25 assuming you have a decent position on your bike (and from your logs my guess is you do) but I don't see many rides longer than 50 with a pace > 20mph (saw the 70 miler a few months ago @ 21mph but that was it).

Run: I know you were recently hurt and the last 10K you did was a 39:35 in early April. That points more towards a mid 1:30's run.

You have really made nice progress over the last year and I think you have a shot/should go for it.

2011-05-24 2:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?

running2far - 2011-05-24 1:02 PM I think you'll be off the bike before 2:25 if you're doing 260 watts assuming all the aero goodies and its flat as you mentioned.

That was my thought.  With a 320W FTP, 4.2 W/kg and a decent aero position, I would expect a pretty solid bike split; better than 2:25 at least.  If 2:25 is realistic, then I'm in a whole lot of trouble...

Then again, a 2:25 may be appropriate if it leaves Nate's legs strong enough to ensure the sub 90min half marathon. 

2011-05-24 8:43 PM
in reply to: #3515905

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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?

Change your bike expectation to <2:25 and your run expectation to <1:35 and you are still on target.  If everything clicks, then you still have <1:30 run as a possibility.

My FTP is below yours and I recently went <2:30 riding very much within myself on a flat but very windy course with some bad roads in a race for which I was not properly trained and tired from a recent HM.  You really should have higher expectations on the bike, IMO.

I realize that many many people overcook the bike, but with an FTP that high, really I think you are selling yourself short thinking in terms of 2:30 on a flat course if conditions are reasonable.



2011-05-24 10:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
Experior - 2011-05-24 8:43 PM

My FTP is below yours and I recently went <2:30 riding very much within myself on a flat but very windy course with some bad roads in a race for which I was not properly trained and tired from a recent HM.  You really should have higher expectations on the bike, IMO.

Mind sharing your FTP?  I'm trying to get a feel for what I should expect at my 70.3 in June, but don't really have a good benchmark.  I'm hoping for a sub-2:30 but am only working with about a 280W FTP on a not so flat course. 

2011-05-24 11:03 PM
in reply to: #3517216

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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
AndrewMT - 2011-05-24 8:53 PM
Experior - 2011-05-24 8:43 PM

My FTP is below yours and I recently went

Mind sharing your FTP?  I'm trying to get a feel for what I should expect at my 70.3 in June, but don't really have a good benchmark.  I'm hoping for a sub-2:30 but am only working with about a 280W FTP on a not so flat course. 

I can toss in another data point since I'm a bit slower.  My last HIM last summer, light rolling hills I did a 2:45 bike leg, 169 watts avg / 178 watts normalized.  My FTP is 235 (3.45w/kg).

Edit: Andrew - I played with analyticcycling.com - estimate you at about 2:30 with a 75% FTP effort and 2:15 with 85%.  That's plugging in your power to my values though, so obviously weight and frontal area are going to differ a bit, plus the course itself.



Edited by spudone 2011-05-24 11:15 PM
2011-05-25 6:45 AM
in reply to: #3517216

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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
AndrewMT - 2011-05-24 11:53 PM
Experior - 2011-05-24 8:43 PM

My FTP is below yours and I recently went

Mind sharing your FTP?  I'm trying to get a feel for what I should expect at my 70.3 in June, but don't really have a good benchmark.  I'm hoping for a sub-2:30 but am only working with about a 280W FTP on a not so flat course. 

 

I wouldn't mind if I had a decent figure to give you, but I think it is around 250.  As for the ride, I haven't analyzed the power file yet, but I was aiming to keep it right around 200, and mostly succeeded -- I spiked a little bit a few times, but never lagged, so average power is low 200s and NP should be close to that.

2011-05-25 7:32 AM
in reply to: #3517216

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Subject: RE: Is 4:30 doable for me?
AndrewMT - 2011-05-24 11:53 PM

Experior - 2011-05-24 8:43 PM

My FTP is below yours and I recently went <2:30 riding very much within myself on a flat but very windy course with some bad roads in a race for which I was not properly trained and tired from a recent HM.  You really should have higher expectations on the bike, IMO.

Mind sharing your FTP?  I'm trying to get a feel for what I should expect at my 70.3 in June, but don't really have a good benchmark.  I'm hoping for a sub-2:30 but am only working with about a 280W FTP on a not so flat course. 



I have ridden in the 240's watts for three half IM's:

Very flat: 2:20 (Eagleman)
Somewhat flat: 2:25 (SC half)
Hilly: 2:32 (Syracuse)

P4/HED3/Disc/pretty tucked/6'1/170lbs/FTP was 310-325 going in
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