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2011-10-05 5:46 PM

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Ames, Iowa
Subject: barefoot/minimalist shoes
Hi BrainTrust!! Just wondering what your thoughts/ideas are on the barefoot/minimalist shoe idea. Anyone have experience running in them? What brand did you use? Sticking with them? Improving your running??

Thanks for any and all shares!!


2011-10-05 10:10 PM
in reply to: #3712902

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Expert
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Colorado Springs, Colorado
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

There have been numerous threads on this topic. A search should bring up lots of info.

That being said, I have some Merrell Trail Gloves, Vibram Five Fingers, Saucony Kinvara 2, and assorted racing flats. The most minimalist are the Merrells and the VFF. This type of footwear almost requires a different footstrike and a person who is an overstriding heel striker will need to ease into them very gradually. There are claims this type of shoe can help the foot get stronger. Some people have had great success, others not so much.

2011-10-05 10:21 PM
in reply to: #3712902

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Champion
10668
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Tacoma, Washington
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

I also have the Trail Gloves and Kinvara's, as well as the Altra Instinct. Going low drop was key to cleaning up my stride, and I've been running for over 30 years.

I've had surgery on my left foot to correct Frieberg's Infraction, and was seeing symptoms in my right foot. Going low drop and changing from a calf-dominant stride to one more hamstring and gluteus dominant made all the difference.

2011-10-05 11:06 PM
in reply to: #3712902

Veteran
170
1002525
Meridian, ID
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
look at Altra shoes, got a pair of Intuitions? and by far the most comfortable.  Really feel like slippers with a sole on the bottom.  Has made me more comfortable running, faster....we'll see.
2011-10-05 11:35 PM
in reply to: #3712902

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2011-10-06 6:11 AM
in reply to: #3712902

New user
38
25
Raleigh, NC
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

I would recommend runblogger.com to get information about minimalist shoes (and what even constitutes minimalism vs. natural foot strike shoes)

Merrill Trail gloves, vibrams are considered minimalist where as Kinvara the new Brooks Pure Project are considered natural foot strike shoes)



2011-10-06 10:04 AM
in reply to: #3712902

Master
1366
10001001001002525
PNW
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

Add the NB Minimus to the list of shoes to investigate.  I've tried the Merrill Pace Glove, the Altra's, Vivobarefoot Aqua's and Neo's, huaraches, VFF's and totally barefoot and the NB Minimus trail are the best solution for my foot and stride.  I'm faster because before I went minimal, I couldn't run at all and of course, the more I run, the faster I get just because I started at nothing.

My first half marathon is next week.  Two years ago, I couldn't run a 1/4 mile without foot pain.  That's my 'minimal' footwear endorsement. ;-)

2011-10-06 11:13 AM
in reply to: #3712902

Elite
3498
20001000100100100100252525
Laguna Beach
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

As the extent of the recession became apparent the specialty running industry, like most discretionary industries, needed a new trend, a new "schtick". Valid or not- the running industry needed an entirely new category to get people back on line and in stores buying shoes.

Like a lot of recreational industries, be it "urban outdoor", cycling and a number of others running got its wish in the form of Chris McDougal's fantastic book, Born to Run. The book struck a contrarian chord with people who's life was laced with incongrueties- the value of their $250K house was tanking, their job was on the line, their degree became a commodity. They needed a one-eighty. Barefoot running helped provide that. It made contrarian sense.

Along with the societal schtick of barefoot running there is good science behind it. Fit, light, elite runners who are not over weight could use a minimal shoe training regimen to fine tune form and muscles. Lighter shoes- even no shoes perhaps, are faster for some fit runners. The idea, like most good trends, was not new. In the early 1980's Nike released a shoe called the "Sock Racer" in a box festooned with warning labels. Basically, you ran in the Sock Racer sparingly and on race day. It was supposed to strengthen your feet and improve your running form. Here is me racing in the original Nike Sock Racer back in 1986- perhaps the first marketed "minimalist" shoe:

As the convergeance of Born to Run, societal factors, marketing efforts and demi-science took hold the quarky look of the Vibram Five Finger captured people's imagination. If you had them, you were "cool", "in the know", at the leading edge of a trend. The schtick was better than the science, as most trends are, and it went viral.

Some people benefitted, many bought, most rationalized.

And the running industry survived the recession largely on the back of a book about barefoot Indians and a weird looking shoe that does offer some very fit athletes some benefit.

For the average runner there is likely little tangible benefit except that it compelled them to adopt a  controlled regimen ("Well, yeah, but you have to know how to use them...") with varied workouts.

The ugly reality is: Most of us are too fat for this. Ouch. Most of us simply need good basic shoes and more running miles. But that isn't a popular or profitable sales pitch. It's easier to capture someone's imagination and sell them barefoot shoes- and remember, there are some tangible benefits for the right athlete, so we can point to those studies as our "evidence", our pitch. And of course, there are those Indians...

Bottom line: Is minimalist/barefoot running a viable training tool? Yes/No answer: Why, Yes...

Is it suitable for the majority of recreational runners? Will it accelerate weight loss, moderate injury, motivate the athlete to exercise consistently and moderately? Some argue it will, some suggest it won't.

Luckily for the industry guys like me there isn't too much tangible "data" on minimal running across the broad spectrum of fitness/recreational runners. There is just enough for us to toss around on forums and continue to sell shoes. So thank goodness for the trend...

Because it's tough to sell, "lose weight, run regularly, practice moderation and do that non-stop for three years- then you'll be a better runner." It's simply easier to sell the Magic Shoes. Or rather, let the rest of the practioners in this thread sell them for us.

2011-10-06 11:20 AM
in reply to: #3712902

Champion
5312
5000100100100
Calgary
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
Tom....ha, too fat for it....ha. I gotta disagree on that. Now if you said most of us are too fat AND lack the proper technique to run barefoot or minimalistic then I would agree.

Liked that post though.
2011-10-06 11:40 AM
in reply to: #3712902

NH
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
Tom, I'm not fat, I'm big boned.
2011-10-06 11:53 AM
in reply to: #3713788


67
2525
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

I'm loving my New Balance Nimbus road shoes (bought them from a BT'er!).  They feel like magic shoes to me.  When I run hills with them, I feel like all of my power is being transferred to overcoming the hills.  When I accelerate, I really feel like I'm accelerating.  It's kind of hard to describe, but I feel more "kid-like" with them on.

I have VFF KSOs and while I got up to running 12 miles at a time in them, they just didn't feel natural to me.  I could feel every little pebble and asphalt crack with them while the Nimbus shoes hides more of the little things from my feet.  I guess that makes them less minimalist than the VFFs, but for me, the Nimbus provides the right balance.

Steve



2011-10-06 11:59 AM
in reply to: #3712902

Expert
2555
20005002525
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

So the minimalist shoe movement is nothing more than an attempt to sell more shoes. Kind of like the movement toward the massive heels and cushioning seen in most modern shoes when they were foisted on people back in he 70s.

Lightweight, minimal shoes have been around all the time. I've been using them for many years to race in - as have many people. Some of the offerings from the shoe companies aren't much more than taking their racing flats and making them more mainstream through marketing efforts.

Although not a zero drop shoe, the Nike Zoom XCS 2 I race in are more minimal than either the Merrells or VFF. The Mizuno Wave Universe is even lighter. A big difference though is that racing flats typically don't tend to hold up well as daily trainers, whereas many of the minimal/barefoot shoes work well for this purpose.

These shoes are not for everyone. I always caution people the shoes will require a different footstrike and to ease into them gradually. People are fooling themselves if they think they can make instantaneous big changes to their stride mechanics without changing the volume of their running.

2011-10-06 12:06 PM
in reply to: #3712902

Member
108
100
San Diego
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

Minimalist is good for some and not for others. I don't think you need to be an elite runner to benefit from the shoes.I don't care of you are 10% BF or 30% if it works for you then you are on the right track.

I was having issues logging the miles and needed to figure out what if anything would help me get there. I did read Born to run and bought it hook, line and sinker!

"Is it suitable for the majority of recreational runners? Will it accelerate weight loss, moderate injury, motivate the athlete to exercise consistently and moderately? Some argue it will, some suggest it won't." Not so much of will it but more about can it? Maybe... The variable here is the runner. Will their genetics and frame respond to it? There is only one way to find out... Try it...

Previously a 20 mile week would put me so far in the hurt locker I would frequently ponder giving up running. I ate the paste and went on to change my stride and run in minimalist shoes. Now 10 mile long run is not an issue and a 40 mile week is an easy thing. If something has the potential to help you get to a point you can log the miles in order to become a better and more efficient runner then it shouldn't be discounted no matter what level of runner you are.

To the OP I run in Innov-8 F195's and Merrell Trail gloves. The trail glove is pretty much a Vibrams without the Fred Flintstone look and they tend to be pretty narrow. The Innov-8 is a great shoe but pretty much just a racing flat. I would recommend either as long as the transition is made with common sense and not aggressively.

2011-10-06 12:10 PM
in reply to: #3713739

Pro
9391
500020002000100100100252525
Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
Tom Demerly. - 2011-10-06 11:13 AM

 

 

I just want to say I like the running ski goggle look.  

2011-10-06 12:11 PM
in reply to: #3712902

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

Tom, I ran in the sock racers back in the 80's as well.  I loved them.  I wear the Zoot TT 4.0 now and it reminds me of that shoe.  I'd really like to try some barefoot running, but at my age I'm just not sure I could pull it off.  I do know, however, that all of the "cushioning" in a shoe doesn't do a darn thing for me but add weight.

And yeah, I had the same glasses as well....with the big foam "sweat catcher" around the lenses. Laughing

The speedo.........no, sorry, I just couldn't.  Some things should not be, uh......"minimulized"Cool

 

 



Edited by Left Brain 2011-10-06 12:18 PM
2011-10-06 12:25 PM
in reply to: #3712902

Extreme Veteran
404
100100100100
Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
I wear VFF, Kinvara, and Mirage (as a Newton replacement). The VFF allow you to feel the road/terrain and work on your form. Learn to read the feedback your body gives you to determine the right stride for you. I'm good in VFF for about 3 miles before my feet are rubbed raw. However, I transfer that form into shoes with more cushion and comfort. For 13 or less, the Kinvara fit the bill. Over 13 and I'm more comfortable in the sturdier Mirage. It's not about hype. It's about having a wide range of choices.


2011-10-06 12:28 PM
in reply to: #3712902

Veteran
273
1001002525
Downingtown, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

I wear a pair of Merrell Trail Gloves as my every day "walking around" shoe.  I have done some running in them, but never more than 6 miles at a time.  I also have a pair of Saucony Hattoris that I use occasionally for short runs.

I do the vast majority of my running in Kinvaras.  I like the idea of running in minimalist shoes, but to be honest I dont have time to dedicate to changing everything about my running to be able to run successfully in the Trail Gloves all the time.  I like that the Kinvaras are more of a "natural strike" sort of thing rather than "minimal".  They feel really good when I run in them.  I have run up to 18 miles in them so far, and am planning to use them in next weekend's Baltimore Marathon.

One concequence I have noticed, though, is that any shoe with a "heel" now bothers me.  Thats pretty much any regular running shoe, any trail runner, casual shoe, dress shoe, etc.  I have gotten so used to walking around in the Trail Gloves that when I am forced to wear a more "normal" shoe I have a hard time maintaining correct posture.  I find myself sticking my butt out behind me to balance.  The Kinvaras have a 4mm "heel" and although I notice it, that much doesnt bother me.

 

FWIW - I also have a pair of VFFs that I just dont like.  The feeling of stuff between my toes is very uncomfortable for me.

2011-10-06 12:30 PM
in reply to: #3713739

New user
595
500252525
Connecticut Shore
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
Tom Demerly. - 2011-10-06 11:13 AM

As the extent of the recession became apparent the specialty running industry, like most discretionary industries, needed a new trend, a new "schtick". Valid or not- the running industry needed an entirely new category to get people back on line and in stores buying shoes.

Like a lot of recreational industries, be it "urban outdoor", cycling and a number of others running got its wish in the form of Chris McDougal's fantastic book, Born to Run. The book struck a contrarian chord with people who's life was laced with incongrueties- the value of their $250K house was tanking, their job was on the line, their degree became a commodity. They needed a one-eighty. Barefoot running helped provide that. It made contrarian sense.

Along with the societal schtick of barefoot running there is good science behind it. Fit, light, elite runners who are not over weight could use a minimal shoe training regimen to fine tune form and muscles. Lighter shoes- even no shoes perhaps, are faster for some fit runners. The idea, like most good trends, was not new. In the early 1980's Nike released a shoe called the "Sock Racer" in a box festooned with warning labels. Basically, you ran in the Sock Racer sparingly and on race day. It was supposed to strengthen your feet and improve your running form. Here is me racing in the original Nike Sock Racer back in 1986- perhaps the first marketed "minimalist" shoe:

As the convergeance of Born to Run, societal factors, marketing efforts and demi-science took hold the quarky look of the Vibram Five Finger captured people's imagination. If you had them, you were "cool", "in the know", at the leading edge of a trend. The schtick was better than the science, as most trends are, and it went viral.

Some people benefitted, many bought, most rationalized.

And the running industry survived the recession largely on the back of a book about barefoot Indians and a weird looking shoe that does offer some very fit athletes some benefit.

For the average runner there is likely little tangible benefit except that it compelled them to adopt a  controlled regimen ("Well, yeah, but you have to know how to use them...") with varied workouts.

The ugly reality is: Most of us are too fat for this. Ouch. Most of us simply need good basic shoes and more running miles. But that isn't a popular or profitable sales pitch. It's easier to capture someone's imagination and sell them barefoot shoes- and remember, there are some tangible benefits for the right athlete, so we can point to those studies as our "evidence", our pitch. And of course, there are those Indians...

Bottom line: Is minimalist/barefoot running a viable training tool? Yes/No answer: Why, Yes...

Is it suitable for the majority of recreational runners? Will it accelerate weight loss, moderate injury, motivate the athlete to exercise consistently and moderately? Some argue it will, some suggest it won't.

Luckily for the industry guys like me there isn't too much tangible "data" on minimal running across the broad spectrum of fitness/recreational runners. There is just enough for us to toss around on forums and continue to sell shoes. So thank goodness for the trend...

Because it's tough to sell, "lose weight, run regularly, practice moderation and do that non-stop for three years- then you'll be a better runner." It's simply easier to sell the Magic Shoes. Or rather, let the rest of the practioners in this thread sell them for us.

Tom, you are a real sport with all the stories and pictures.  Now I am going to crack a cheap joke...

 

"Sock racers?  Where's the sock?"

 

Stay thirsty my friend!

2011-10-06 12:40 PM
in reply to: #3712902

Master
1366
10001001001002525
PNW
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

Tom - I disagree with your premise that barefoot/minimal is only good for fit, trained, people.  It really varies by individual. 

When I started, I was significantly overweight and out of shape.  I tried to slowly ramp up my running using a modified (to be even more gradual) couch to 5K program.  When the run segments got to be more than 3 minutes long, I started having pain.  I kept at it figuring it was me adjusting to the impact but it only got worse until it started to be a problem all day (not just when running).  At the time, I was using custom orthotics in stability shoes.  My shoes were selected for me specifically with those orthotics by a team of people in a good running shoe store.

I eventually saw a new podiatrist because I really wanted to be able to run (my old one was on the other side of the country due to a move).  He took one look at my foot mechanics and at my shoes and told me to get rid of them.  Together we shopped like fiends to find a shoe that had zero drop, minimal cushioning and yet was wide enough for my forefoot (the single biggest problem for me).  Ultimately, the best option for me would be to run totally barefoot, but to be perfectly honest, I didn't have the patience to toughen up my soles properly, so I wanted shoes instead.


As I mentioned above, 2 years later, I'm running regularly.  This is my third 20 mpw in a row and I've got my first (of at least three) half marathons next week.  My feet are nice and fit and strong even though I'm still 15 lbs overweight (instead of the original 45 lbs overweight).  No, I'm not fast, no I'm not elite but I'm improving daily and if you tell me that's because of some book and a new marketing campaign, you are sorely mistaken.  In a lot of ways, I'm super sorry that this barefoot/minimal thing is so popular because now everyone assumes I'm jumping on some bandwagon instead of doing what is best for my particular foot structure.

2011-10-06 1:00 PM
in reply to: #3713739

Seattle
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
Tom Demerly. - 2011-10-06 11:13 AM

As the extent of the recession became apparent the specialty running industry, like most discretionary industries, needed a new trend, a new "schtick". Valid or not- the running industry needed an entirely new category to get people back on line and in stores buying shoes.

Like a lot of recreational industries, be it "urban outdoor", cycling and a number of others running got its wish in the form of Chris McDougal's fantastic book, Born to Run. The book struck a contrarian chord with people who's life was laced with incongrueties- the value of their $250K house was tanking, their job was on the line, their degree became a commodity. They needed a one-eighty. Barefoot running helped provide that. It made contrarian sense.

Along with the societal schtick of barefoot running there is good science behind it. Fit, light, elite runners who are not over weight could use a minimal shoe training regimen to fine tune form and muscles. Lighter shoes- even no shoes perhaps, are faster for some fit runners. The idea, like most good trends, was not new. In the early 1980's Nike released a shoe called the "Sock Racer" in a box festooned with warning labels. Basically, you ran in the Sock Racer sparingly and on race day. It was supposed to strengthen your feet and improve your running form. Here is me racing in the original Nike Sock Racer back in 1986- perhaps the first marketed "minimalist" shoe:

As the convergeance of Born to Run, societal factors, marketing efforts and demi-science took hold the quarky look of the Vibram Five Finger captured people's imagination. If you had them, you were "cool", "in the know", at the leading edge of a trend. The schtick was better than the science, as most trends are, and it went viral.

Some people benefitted, many bought, most rationalized.

And the running industry survived the recession largely on the back of a book about barefoot Indians and a weird looking shoe that does offer some very fit athletes some benefit.

For the average runner there is likely little tangible benefit except that it compelled them to adopt a  controlled regimen ("Well, yeah, but you have to know how to use them...") with varied workouts.

The ugly reality is: Most of us are too fat for this. Ouch. Most of us simply need good basic shoes and more running miles. But that isn't a popular or profitable sales pitch. It's easier to capture someone's imagination and sell them barefoot shoes- and remember, there are some tangible benefits for the right athlete, so we can point to those studies as our "evidence", our pitch. And of course, there are those Indians...

Bottom line: Is minimalist/barefoot running a viable training tool? Yes/No answer: Why, Yes...

Is it suitable for the majority of recreational runners? Will it accelerate weight loss, moderate injury, motivate the athlete to exercise consistently and moderately? Some argue it will, some suggest it won't.

Luckily for the industry guys like me there isn't too much tangible "data" on minimal running across the broad spectrum of fitness/recreational runners. There is just enough for us to toss around on forums and continue to sell shoes. So thank goodness for the trend...

Because it's tough to sell, "lose weight, run regularly, practice moderation and do that non-stop for three years- then you'll be a better runner." It's simply easier to sell the Magic Shoes. Or rather, let the rest of the practioners in this thread sell them for us.

Thanks for taking the time to write this out! 

2011-10-06 1:02 PM
in reply to: #3713911

Extreme Veteran
404
100100100100
Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
Asalzwed - 2011-10-06 1:00 PM

Thanks for taking the time to write this out! 

This topic comes up weekly. I'm sure that Tom is smart enough to just have this response saved in a doc.



2011-10-06 1:16 PM
in reply to: #3713917

Elite
3498
20001000100100100100252525
Laguna Beach
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

You know- I have considered producing canned responses saved in a document file for the reptitive, but nonetheless valid, forum inquiries. Some of the recurring themes on forums are:

1. What bike should I buy? (Go to your bike shop and get fitted.)

2. I'm injured, should I race? (No).

3. My saddle hurts, what saddle should I buy? (None. buy good shorts, chamois cream, get a bike fit and ride more frequently at shorter distance. Do that for a year.)

4. My race is this weekend and I'm scared. (We're all scared, which is why we come here.)

5. I can't really swim, should I race? (Not yet, you should learn to swim well first.)

6. I have/should I get a tattoo? (It's an individual decision, but remember they are permanent.)

7. My Husband/Wife doesn't understand this. (Communication. Usually ends poorly.)

8. WTC and Ironman suck. (No they don't.)

... And so on. There are probably less than 30 recurring themes to our inquiries and threads.

The inquiries aren't the important thing, the support and interaction are. Because of that- even though the same questions get asked over and over, I try to provide a detailed and unique answer for each. That helps people spin off and disagree, agree, adore, bash, flame, comment or ignore. But it does provide a basis for something else- a continuation of the media.

And that is why we're all here...  Smile

 



Edited by Tom Demerly. 2011-10-06 1:22 PM
2011-10-06 1:21 PM
in reply to: #3713830

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
Left Brain - 2011-10-06 11:11 AM

Tom, I ran in the sock racers back in the 80's as well.  I loved them.  I wear the Zoot TT 4.0 now and it reminds me of that shoe.  I'd really like to try some barefoot running, but at my age I'm just not sure I could pull it off. 



If you like the TT 4.0 you should try the Ultra Speed as an even more minimal option. I run in both and the Speeds are fantastic!
2011-10-06 1:47 PM
in reply to: #3713941

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes
bryancd - 2011-10-06 1:21 PM
Left Brain - 2011-10-06 11:11 AM

Tom, I ran in the sock racers back in the 80's as well.  I loved them.  I wear the Zoot TT 4.0 now and it reminds me of that shoe.  I'd really like to try some barefoot running, but at my age I'm just not sure I could pull it off. 

If you like the TT 4.0 you should try the Ultra Speed as an even more minimal option. I run in both and the Speeds are fantastic!

Thanks. I will.  My idea has been to keep trending toward less to see where the tipping point is for me.  I can say that I run pain free right now near my mid 50's.  I haven't been able to say that for many years.  I believe it's the fact that I run with less now, and my legs/feet have responded well.  I've started doing my walks barefoot.  It's been interesting.  Next Spring I believe I'll do my hill repeats barefoot as a starting point. Patience.

2011-10-06 2:11 PM
in reply to: #3712902

DC
Subject: RE: barefoot/minimalist shoes

Here's a water-down, far less-technical response: Been running for 7 yrs & have completed two hand-fulls of marathons. Bought a pair of VB this summer after suffering from injuries for the first time ever. IMO, they really do give you "perspective" on how to run efficiently & "properly," i.e. without pain which, for me, translates to faster running due to the shortened strides & thus quicker turn-around.

This, & I have re-fallen in love w/running again as I use the VBs exclusively on grassy trails. I find that I'm so focused on not stepping on rocks etc that I'm totally out-of-my head & thus really relaxing. (E.g., no longer think/worry about what awaits me at work.

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