General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold? Rss Feed  
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2005-10-13 7:36 PM

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Subject: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?

So after following several threads here and reading some stuff in "Going Long", I decided to try a LT running test.  Warmed up for 15 minutes fairly easily and then did a 30 min. time trial at the track, taking the avg of my HR for the last 20 minutes.  I did this to the letter.  When I was done, I noticed my HRavg for the 20 min. was 185... Once I revcovered (it's a toughie) and plugged the data in, I was told my Zone 1 was <158 and my Zone 2 was 158-168.  Okay, fair enough.  This is a lot higher than what I ahve assumed up until now, but let's give it a shot.

I went for a run and tried to keep my HR around 150-160, thinking this is Z1-Z2 and it shouldn't be too hard.  It was hard.  My RPE (rate of perceived exertion) was quite high, but my HR avg for a 30 min. run was 138. 

My questions are these:  Is it possible that I did something wrong during the test?  Is everything under 158 really in Zone 1?  Why does it feel pretty tough?  If I am running in the 135-145 range, will this give me the same benefit as being in the 145-155 range?  I don't mind working hard and I can get over the RPE, I just don't want to be thinking I am building a nice zone 1 type base, but I am really working too hard.  Anyone have any ideas?   How about Mike Ricci, (BT's own LT guru )?   Thanks

* BTW, I am 32 and have been in decent shape for my whole life, and running for the last 10 years.  Right now, I am far from being in my best running shape, but I am not exactly 'off the couch' either.



2005-10-13 8:14 PM
in reply to: #264971

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
My thoughts: you're in Guatemala. Excessive heat/humidity can skew HR high. Any caffeine or other stimulants before the test (decongestants and the like)?  When was your last meal before the test? Were you fatigued going into the test? Do any strenuous/anerobic work the day before?
2005-10-13 10:16 PM
in reply to: #264985

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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?

Thanks for the reply, Jim.  Some good ideas about the test perhaps being skewed.  Although, I felt pretty good going into the test, and Ifelt strong as I ran.  Didn't take anything out of the ordinary, was relatively rested, hydrated and fueled (although probably not optimally so).  Also, since I am in Guatemala city and we are at 1500m altitude, it is neither very hot, nor particularly humid.  I know the altitude affects HR, but wouldn't it be the same for both the test and the other runs? 

Maybe I am just being a baby?  I guess another 30 min. time trial would be useful *sigh*

2005-10-14 2:08 AM
in reply to: #264971

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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?

I wouldn't give up on it yet.  I did a run LT test just last week and mine is like 182.  But running in the 150's generally feels pretty easy to me. I can't keep my HR under 145 unless I walk   My new Zone 2 (155-164) definitely feels like more effort than my old zones, but I don't have to try too hard to get the HR up there.

You might just not be used to guaging effort vs. HR.  Today was my first run with my new Zones and it was definitely weird.  Use the numbers for a month and see what happens.  At least try a few more easy runs.  The day you used your zones you could have been just having a bad day.

As for test factors...if you generally run at that altitude, then you want to do the test there.  If you went down to sea level and trained there your LT would be different.  Mike Ricci explained all of this to me last week (unfortunately in the Training support thread or I'd post the link here but you can't get to it so it won't do you any good) but maybe when he gets back from Hawaii he'll be kind enough to pass on the info here as well.  I'll defer because I'd be afraid to get it wrong

2005-10-14 5:43 AM
in reply to: #264971

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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
If your HR average was 185 I would think your zone 1 would be in the area of 115-150 and zone 2 151-160. So you would be running at no higher than 155 bpm during base and preferably lower. Did you plug it in correctly?
2005-10-14 8:22 AM
in reply to: #264971

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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
This is really interesting because I was just thinking about this during my morning run. I too did my LT test (181-183) and figured out my zones. Zone 2 is 10-15 bpm harder than I've been running most of the year. It definitely doesn't feel like an "easy" workout like zone 1 does, and I've been worrying that I'm going too hard. In zone 1, I feel like I can maintain indefinitely; in zone 2 ... not so much. I can go a long while, but it is slightly harder than conversational pace. Does that sound like you? Does that sound right?? I may have to upgrade to gold to get an answer.


2005-10-14 8:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
lifeisgood - 2005-10-13 7:36 PM

Once I revcovered (it's a toughie) and plugged the data in, I was told my Zone 1 was <158 and my Zone 2 was 158-168.



Out of curiosity, what model are you using for determining HR zones (i.e., how many total zones, what % of HR, etc.)?
2005-10-14 10:45 AM
in reply to: #264971

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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
I have performed LT testing in a lab for over a decade http://www.fitness-concepts.com/voxmax.htmand I am sure that a 30-minute time trial overestimates LT. I also believe that overestimating training intensities slightly makes for very inefficient training.

If an athlete doesn't have access to laboratory testing, I recommend a 60 minute TT (not in a race environment), using the average HR for the last 30 minutes. I would subtract 3-5% from the results of a 30 min TT. Underestimating LT is a small error that makes you slightly less efficient. Overestimating LT is a huge error with significant repercussions. Training at 95% of LT is far, far better than at 101% of LT. 158 to 168 is an EXTREMELY high HR for basic endurance training. Ken
2005-10-14 11:50 AM
in reply to: #264971

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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
Ken,  what about folks who can't yet do a 60 min TT?  Is there a fudge factor reccomended, like subract 5% or something?
2005-10-14 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
Ken, I thought my 30 min TT HR was high (183), but when I ran my first 10K, my average for most of the race was 181-182. I was pushing and couldn't go much longer than the finish, but I recovered well and quickly, which tells me I wasn't killing myself with it. I found it surprising that both the 30 minute and 60+ minute runs had very similar averages ...
2005-10-14 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
Most athletes can push harder in a race environment. Generally a well-trained athlete of any level can sustain LT intensity for about 75 minutes in a race, so a 60-minute race will fall slightly above LT - at an intensity at which lactate is accumulating, but slowly.

I would back off the 30-min test by 3-5% and be very conservative with basic endurance pace. When in doubt, go slower for zone 2.

Ken


2005-10-14 1:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
"Ken, what about folks who can't yet do a 60 min TT? Is there a fudge factor reccomended, like subract 5% or something?"

Yes, I would subtract 3-5% off average HR from a 30 min TT.
2005-10-14 1:24 PM
in reply to: #264971

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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?

Thanks for all your ideas and comments.

* The formula I used was from "Going Long" by Friel and Byrn.  It is the same formula that Mike Ricci had on one of these threads.  It calculates 5 zones with the 5th being split into 3 sections.  Not sure about the percentages.

* My last couple of runs have definitely been above a conversational pace...this is why I am worried that I am way too high.

* regarding the 60 min. TT...that sounds particularly painful.  I KNOW there is very little chance I could have held the 185 HR for another 30 minutes.  So maybe the subtracting 5% guideline will work.  That would put my LT at 176. and my zone 1 at  <148 and zone 2 at 149-159 .  This certainly sounds more along the lines of what I was expecting.  I think I may go with this for now (although it still seems high), and then when I have the gumption, I MAY attempt a 60 min. TT!



Edited by lifeisgood 2005-10-14 1:25 PM

2005-10-16 7:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
Those sound like reasonable numbers to me. Let us know how it goes!

Ken
2005-10-17 1:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
KenMierke - 2005-10-14 10:45 AM
If an athlete doesn't have access to laboratory testing, I recommend a 60 minute TT (not in a race environment), using the average HR for the last 30 minutes. Ken


OK, I'm bumping this thread because I have about a zillion questions. I really appreciate all the trainers and coaches who take their time to answer stuff like this.

Why not do the 60 minute TT in a race environment? For my current race pace, the upcoming local 10K seems like an ideal time to do this as I expect it to take me between 60 - 65 minutes to complete.

Thanks again.
2005-10-17 6:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
I think that Gale Bernharst (sic?) book suggests adjusting down by 2% from 10km race because you'll go harder than a time trial and down 4% for a 30m/20m time trial?


2005-10-17 8:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
Most athletes are able to go harder in a race environment than by themselves in a 60 minute time trial. You will race a 10K significantly higher than LT intensity. If you want to use a race effort to estimate LT, find a race that will take about 75 minutes to complete.

Again, overestimating LT is a BIG error which will lead to inefficient training. Underestimating LT is a small error. When in doubt, be conservative.

Ken
2005-10-17 9:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
KenMierke - 2005-10-17 6:05 PM

Again, overestimating LT is a BIG error which will lead to inefficient training. Underestimating LT is a small error. When in doubt, be conservative.

Ken


That strikes me as a key observation....you don't need to nail your LT exactly, you just need to stay well south of Z3 territory for aerobic training, you don't need to train right up to the zone boundary, so why sweat it? It's not going to make you any better. I used to run like an idiot with my HR squarely in Z3 territory, now I am running with a focus toward pushing my HR as far down as I can while maintaining a pace. I have noticed that with focus on breathing and good form you can manipulate that HR downwards, fascinating! HRM with GPS helps here.
2005-10-17 9:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
It sounds like Ken is saying to always err on the side of lower rather than higher for aerobic training.  But if my zone 1 is  <148, am I getting the same training benefit at ANY value under 148, or do I want to be as close to 148 to be gaining maximal benefit, but still remaining in zone 1? 
2005-10-17 10:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
Yes, it is very unlikely that you would go too slow to have significant benefit. For basic endurance training or for LT training, going too slowly to a modedrate degree still brings most of the benefit, but going just a tiny bit too fast alters the workout a lot.

Ken
2005-10-18 8:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible I am overestimating my Lactate Threshold?
KenMierke - 2005-10-17 8:05 PM

Most athletes are able to go harder in a race environment than by themselves in a 60 minute time trial. You will race a 10K significantly higher than LT intensity. If you want to use a race effort to estimate LT, find a race that will take about 75 minutes to complete.

Again, overestimating LT is a BIG error which will lead to inefficient training. Underestimating LT is a small error. When in doubt, be conservative.

Ken


That makes sense. Thanks again.


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