Speed Training

hello, i am not sure about this train slow run slow idea????

basically the way i train, and have been told to train, and indeed i am pretty sure most people train is that you need to mix up your sessions, and do it with heart rate not speed, and generally the higher you HR the faster you are going (unless up hill ofcourse). So for instance my run program in a week would go something like:

6mile run 70% of max HR
2 mile run 75% of max HR
2mile run 85% max HR
3 miles 65-70% max HR
8 miles 65% max HR

here with the long runs you build up endurance in your muscles and you lungs (cardio-wise anyways) then the short runs will help you build speed. I am not saying this is an ideal program or anything but basically if you had a 5k race coming up and you trainned by running 5k every day as fast as you could you will get to a certain level then level out really quickly, i have read accounts of this a lot. So the key is to mix up your sessions, and even mix up sessions within sessions (i.e. interval's where you run slow then fast then slow then fast in one run, and hill running, tackling a variety of hill lengths and slopes in one session)

I am pretty sure that this sort of program, where your trainning is varies (but ofcourse adapted to you abilities and schedule) would be benificial. I think "If you train slow, you'll race slow. If you train fast, you'll race fast." is true to an extent i.e. all slow is bad but then again so is all fast variety is the key (well in my opinion anyway

Also one last thing, build it up slow, don't rush things or you will injure yourself, trust me i speak from experience of overdoing it!

Hope this helps a bit

Andy

Edited by ginger ninja 2004-04-25 6:00 PM

Tory,
You are doing great! I'ts good to run long slow runs to build a base. Something you might want to try that is fun both solo and with a running partner are "Fartleks" a ridiculous name which roughly translated is sweedish for "speedplay". Basicly while you are doing your training run pick a distant object, a tree or a sign and if with a partner do a count down of 3, then run as fast as possible to the chosen object, afterwhich slow to normal pace until rested and try it again. This is really a form of interval training less the track(yuk!). This is a good drill that will get your body used to running fast and will actually help increase your speed. I don't know if you have competed in any races but you might want try a local 5k race, in fact dont race it, have fun and don't sweat it. Take the pace you ran the 5k and use it as a bench mark to increase speed. You need to run at a increased pace over your bench mark even if its only to 10 mins at a time to increase your race pace, maybe working it into your training once a week. Another reason for a benchmark is for another drill called a tempo run which is about 45 second slower than your 5k race pace. But don't ! do too much too soon, if anything stick with the fartleck to start, higher paces increase the risk for injury dramaticly.

Tory, both of the above are good suggestions. I'd probably start with the fartleks rather than, say, let's run at 75% for 40 minutes. It helps you slowly build up to that.

Another term often used is called strides. Like the fartleks but a little more structured. It means keeping an eye on your heart rate monitor and your watch while you run. Say for instance you were doing a 40 minute run. First 10 minutes, a nice easy run at RPE 3, then for the next 30 minutes you divide it up into six minute intervels. For first two minutes you do strides--lengthened stride, increased speed, RPE up to ~5-6, then you back off into normal pace for the next 4 minutes. Repeat 6 times. Cool down.

That sort of thing.

And for one thing, Tory, your pace is pretty good. It's not especially slow--and obviously, when I think of your story, it's an amazing step of progress that you've come to!! It's true, in order to be fast, you have to train fast. But take it slow--injuries will make you a lot slower!!

Dana

never heard of strides, sounds cool though i will give it a go cheers

andy

Tory, in your initial post you say "I can run 8.5 miles per hour, but not for a long time. That made me feel like at my 9 to 9.5 mph rate I'm pretty much crawling." I think that you are confusing mph with minutes per mile; 9 to 9.5 mph is a pretty good pace...that's between 6:40 and 6:18 per mile.

I have to agree with you that if you train slow, you will certainly not get any faster. Your weekly workout depends entirely on you and the amount of time you can devote to it. I run three times per week so I do one paced run, one run with fartleks, and one long slow run...at least I am re-introducing the long run into my routine after a long spell. I am aiming for an 8 minute mile by the end of this season; presently the best I can muster is 10.

" During our killer aerobics class when we run laps I always sprint the last lap. My idea is (and maybe it's crazy) that if I learn to put the pedal to the metal when I'm "tired" I will finish strong in my races. "

--You definitely got it right, I do the same thing in my training runs(Its a reverse split) I hold back 2/3 at the start and increase pace at 1/3 intervals over the course of the run, I usually use this for racing as well, which gives you a reserve when it gets down to the line. I love racing if only to compete to complete :-). I'm looking forward to my first tri july 11, But my swimming s**ks, I feel pretty good about my running and biking but I need to and have been working hard at swimming. Two or more sessions a week( plus a session with a coach(Who was coached by Bill Boomer)). Laurie my coach thinks I'm doing well but I feel the need to eliminate one of my two rest days for another swim session. Sorry for the digression but swimming is definitely on my mind these days I feel I'm no where near where I need to be for the race. -joe

Tory,

Good question, and one that comes up quite a bit. Your post caught my eye w/ the statement "If you train slow, you'll race slow. If you train fast, you'll race fast." It's my belief that nothing could be further from the truth. For myself, as well as the vast majority of the athletes I work with, we train slow (sometimes VERY slow), yet race FAST (and in my opinion VERY FAST!). What makes a fast runner fast is not that he/she simply has a higher threshold than others (with regards to fitness), although this is a part of it. The main difference between most of us and the best of the best is usually economy. Whether it be swimming, cycling or running, you will never reach your potential as an athlete until your economy as a triathlete is improved. Anyone who has watched the elites run, whether it be Mark Allen (6x IM Hawaii winner) or Khalid Khannouchi (2:05 marathoner) there's much more to it than simply running faster. If one of us were to simply jump in at mile 24 and run for 100yds w/ them, you'd immediately see there is a difference. What's the difference - form & economy.

I'm going to toot my own horn for a minute just so you know this isn't a BS story :o) Since my last 'A' race which was IM Florida in November, I have avg'd somewhere in the vicinity of 8-8:30 /mile pace on 99% of my training runs as I stay strictly in zone 1 regardless of the terrain. The 1% above is when I bump up into zone 2 (but nothing above that). As I don't know you, zone 1 may be an 11 min mile or 9 min mile, so the #'s I've referenced are simply what MY #'s are and should not be carried over. In January, zone 1 typically equates to somewhere around 8:30 /mile for me and has steadily dropped to the 7:30 (+/-) range over the last 4-6 weeks. I am not running any 'harder', as if you could see my training log, my avg HR's for these runs has been constant (140-145), but there has been an increase in pace. I have done ZERO (re-read that...ZERO speedwork). Over the past 2 months my aerobic threshold (AeT) has steadily increased and therefore my anaerobic threshold (AT) has also increased as demonstrated in my 1st race of the year. My 1st tri of the season was in Boca Raton on 4/4 and I ran a 16:48 5K off the bike which equates to about a 5:25 /mile pace.

Again, I train slow, yet race reasonable fast - how is that possible?? The difference is that when I'm running 8:30's I'm working on my form. My leg cadence when running 8:30's is roughly the same as when I'm running 5:30's (that is a key point). Improving your economy/form doesn't take any extra speed or fitness and the improvements can be dramatic. In fact, for someone who is running 12 minute miles, making small adjustments to their form could improve their pace by literally minutes per mile.

Cadence alone is something most athletes never even think about. As a general rule of thumb, for both myself and the athletes I work with, we will not include any speedwork until we stop seeing improvements in their AeT. Thus far after 10 years of racing I'm still improving without any speedwork. Another rule of thumb is to not include any speedwork until the athlete is comfortable running at a cadence of 89+ (that would be 89 right foot strikes /minute). If you're running less than 89 right foot strikes /minute your economy is not where it could be and the benefit of speedwork will be negligible. Remember, you don't have to be fast to have high leg turnover. Another athlete I work with is aiming to break 30 mins for 5K, yet we've improved her turnover from the low 80's to the upper 80's while running close to 10 minute miles.

In my long-winded reply, be cautious about adding in speedwork until you know your economy is good enough to support it. I see to many athletes hitting the track week after week for minimal gains. If you have any specific questions, please drop a post on the PBN Forum and I'll be sure to respond ASAP.

Good luck this season!

Brian Shea
www.PersonalBestNutrition.com

Another variation to your training that you can add is running some of your runs on rolling hills.
If you run on a treadmill this is easy as most treadmills have a programmed "hill" workout you can choose.
Start at a lower level on the "hill" setting and work yourself up.
Hills are known as "speedwork in disguise".

Good luck!

Lots of great advice here. Just make sure you have a nice solid base before worrying about doing much speedwork. In training for my first tri, I noticed just by patiently putting in the miles and building my base, I was able to run faster without trying much. Although, it sounds as though you have been running for awhile. So, starting speedwork, intervals, etc... shouldn't be a problem.

"zone 1 typically........... my avg HR's for these runs has been constant (140-145)"

Brian,

It's seems that the idea of zones vary from one method to another and I know that it is all based on mhr, are you calling 140-145 bpm zone 1 for your calculation method? Based on the method I use and several others I reference a mhr range of 180-200 bpm places a hr of 140-145 in zone 3 or 70%-80% of mhr. I have been grappling with hr training for some time, I always find I don't feel comfortable unless I'm at 150-160 bpm; this is my conversational pace so to speak and it seems to fly in the face of everything I have been reading. Any help here would be appreciated -joe

Joe,

Remember, the #'s I've referred to are specific to my own physiology. There are athletes of similar ability whose zone 1 HR is 130 and there are others w/ zone 1 at 170+. I use a 5 zone HR table which is based off AT (anaerobic threshold) tests done on the bike and run:

1-Recovery
2-Extensive endurance
3-Intensive endurance/muscular endurance
4-Sub-threshold
5a-Super-threshold
5b-Anaerobic endurance
5c-Power

I typically do not base THRZ's off of max HR as you and I could have the same MHR and completely different THRZ's.

You also mention that your MHR is between 180-200 (that's quite a range!). What I would suggest is completing a test as outlined at the bottom of this reply on both the bike and run (not on the same day or consecutive days) to determine your threshold HR's and then work the balance of the zones off those #'s.

I am not necessarily against 'speedwork' for all athletes, but I do feel that the vast majority of athletes will have much better gains if they work on their swimming, cycling and running form and then begin to incorporate 'speedwork' once this is perfected.

In the meantime, my suggestion to you would be establish your true THRZ based on the protocol below. Once you have those #'s, drop a post on the PBN Forum and I'll get back to you ASAP w/ your training zones. We are now in the process of building out the PBN Forum as we get many questions every day and felt it would benefit others if we could condense many of these replies into a forum format.

Good luck, please shoot me an e-mail with any questions.

Brian Shea
www.PersonalBestNutrition.com

How Do I Find My LT Heart Rate

To find your lactate threshold heart rate (LTHR) for either the bike or run complete a 30-minute time trial as follows. Find a course which is relatively flat. A track is perfect, if you have one available. Warm-up as you would before a short race and then begin the time trial. Start your heart rate monitor immediately. This should be one with an average heart rate mode. The effort of this time trial should be racelike--give it all you have. Ten minutes into the time trial (20 minutes to go) hit the 'lap' button on your heart rate monitor so that when you finish you have your average heart rate for the last 20 minutes. This number is an approximation of your LTHR. The more times you complete this test and observe your heart rate relative to breathing in workouts, the more refined your LTHR will become.

wow that sounds great is it ok if i do this too?

thanks

andy

Brian,

Thanks! for all the good info, this will be very useful for me. I'll get back to you when I tri the test.
-- You also mention that your MHR is between 180-200 (that's quite a range!). --
Actually I used the 180-200 range as a variable to see the various hr's for given mhr's in the formula i was using as an example.

Joe

Wow Brian! Amazing information. Thank you so much! I am going to save this post. Everyone has given me such great information. I appreciate boards like this where we can all share and help each other.