General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing Rss Feed  
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2005-12-07 9:58 AM

Master
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Brooklyn, NY
Subject: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
I don't seem to get the sets thingy (8X50, 10X100, etc.). About a month ago I tried doing each set at "regular" and "race" pace (a bit faster than "regular"), with anything from 30sec to 1min rest between each but I don't see an improvement in distance (speed yes but not distance).

I started back to my usual (swim with a focus on technique), and my distance begins to increas steadily. Are sets designed to improve speed only or am I not doing this right? I asked this question before but maybe I just didn't get it the first time.

I wish I had time (and some $$), to meet with a coach but that's just not possible right now, so I've relied an awful lot on BT which has helped in ways I cannot begin to count.

Thanks for any advice.
Eddie


2005-12-07 10:06 AM
in reply to: #300905

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Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing

I do a mix of shorter sets and longer sets, and then occasionally I will do a longer swim. It's also a little confidence booster for me to know that I can swim the distance that I will be swimming in a race.

I've read/heard you really aren't supposed to do the long constant swims much, I think there's a good article in this month's Triathlete. The author says something like, "the only thing long slow swimming makes you good at is long slow swimming." So, a long slow swim shouldn't be done every time...you need that mix to help with speed (like you said). Technique and efficiency are very important in swimming.

2005-12-07 10:08 AM
in reply to: #300905

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
Sets can be done either aerobically or anaerobically, to provide increased fitness using either energy system. Longer intervals with short rest, or many repeats of shorter intervals with short rest for aerobic fitness. Or you can do short intervals with long rest anerobically, or even moderate paced stuff with short rest to improve lactate threshold.

cobannero - 2005-12-07 9:58 AMI don't seem to get the sets thingy (8X50, 10X100, etc.). About a month ago I tried doing each set at "regular" and "race" pace (a bit faster than "regular", with anything from 30sec to 1min rest between each but I don't see an improvement in distance (speed yes but not distance).I started back to my usual (swim with a focus on technique), and my distance begins to increas steadily. Are sets designed to improve speed only or am I not doing this right? I asked this question before but maybe I just didn't get it the first time.I wish I had time (and some $$), to meet with a coach but that's just not possible right now, so I've relied an awful lot on BT which has helped in ways I cannot begin to count.Thanks for any advice.Eddie
2005-12-07 10:23 AM
in reply to: #300905

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing

Doing swimming sets or intervals have different purposes. You can do sets to increase your speed, to focus on one aspect of your technique, you can do them to break down a long steady swim, or you can do sets to simulate race conditions. The importance of the sets is the rest you take in between. It has to be long enough that allow your to perform for you next set with great technique, but short enough that you aren’t resting too much.

For instance lets say your race goal pace (GP) is 1:30 min per 100 yds.

If you do a steady 1000 yds swim trying to accomplish your GP, at some point your swim might break due fatigue. As you get tired you tend to swim more inefficiently hence you end up tired and swimming slower. If you break down your 1000 yds into 10x100 with 10” or 15” rest you can shoot for that pace each set and take a breathe in between so you can focus in your technique for your next set but the goal is to accomplish almost the same time split each set. Let’s say you want to simulate the start of a race. You can do 2x300 sets as Fast/Steady/GP which means the 1st 100s your will swim faster than your GP, the next 100s almost at your GP and the last 100s at your goal pace. Let’s say you want to bring your GP to 1:25 per 100 yds. You can do 10x50 with 10” rest in which each set you will shoot to accomplish 0:42-0:43 split.

I am sure I am missing something about sets/ intervals but I believe you get the benefit from the rest you take in between like when you do speed work when running or biking…

2005-12-07 10:30 AM
in reply to: #300905

Master
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Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
Thanks guys,

What speed are these sets done at? Or do they vary according to one's personal goal (speed, distance, both, etc.)?

Also, I think I have a "general idea" of a typical swim work out - tell me if this seems right:

warm up - 300yd (easy with focus on technique)
main set - 5X50, 8X100 (etc.) with 30sec rest between each set (do these sets at race pace-fast)
cool down - 200yd (easy)

Sorry for the silly questions but I promised myself I'd make swimming my priority during the off-season, so I'm trying to get this right.
2005-12-07 10:35 AM
in reply to: #300943

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
Speed: depends on what you're trying to accomplish. aerobic/drills: slow. LT: moderate: slightly faster than tri race pace. Anerobic: very fast. Technique should be paramount; if you can't maintain good technique when swimming very fast, don't swim very fast.

As the other poster said, intervals shoulds allow you to ecover enough so your techniques doesn't suffer, but not so much that your HR drops very dramatically. In your example, do you mean race pace to be tri race pace, or race pace for the distance of the interval (50 or a 100)? If it's the former, than that sounds like too much, maybe. If it's the latter, it's not enough.

10 seconds should be enough of a rest interval for an aerobic set (like tri race pace should be). Maybe close to a minute for an anaerobic set.

cobannero - 2005-12-07 10:30 AMThanks guys,What speed are these sets done at? Or do they vary according to one's personal goal (speed, distance, both, etc.)?Also, I think I have a "general idea" of a typical swim work out - tell me if this seems right:warm up - 300yd (easy with focus on technique)main set - 5X50, 8X100 (etc.) with 30sec rest between each set (do these sets at race pace-fast)cool down - 200yd (easy)Sorry for the silly questions but I promised myself I'd make swimming my priority during the off-season, so I'm trying to get this right.


2005-12-07 10:47 AM
in reply to: #300936

Master
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Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
George - You hit "submit" just before I did. You really hepled with your explanation. THANKS-O-BUNCH!!

Sassafras & Jim - You guys really helped too.

THANKS TO ALL - I have now seen the light!
2005-12-07 10:59 AM
in reply to: #300955

Master
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Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
Jim,

You posted just before my last. You help to really clarify this more. Thanks muchisimo. I'm actually looking forward to my new work outs now.
2005-12-07 10:59 AM
in reply to: #300905

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2005-12-07 11:00 AM
in reply to: #300918

Elite
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Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
Sassafras - 2005-12-07 10:06 AM

I do a mix of shorter sets and longer sets, and then occasionally I will do a longer swim. It's also a little confidence booster for me to know that I can swim the distance that I will be swimming in a race.

I've read/heard you really aren't supposed to do the long constant swims much, I think there's a good article in this month's Triathlete. The author says something like, "the only thing long slow swimming makes you good at is long slow swimming." So, a long slow swim shouldn't be done every time...you need that mix to help with speed (like you said). Technique and efficiency are very important in swimming.

Now that's been my problem....to many long slow swims.  I'll knock out 3500 yds but it takes me 1hr:35 (which is 2:60 / 100 pace) which is very slow.  My technique is still not mastered so I do a lot of concentrating on form when swimming.  My coach has me working primarily on kick form, which slows me down even more.  Of course when I have flippers on I am much faster, but that's not helping my speed / endurance for normal swimming.  Damn I hate swimming.  There's too much to it.  Its made me love my bike that much more. 

2005-12-07 11:10 AM
in reply to: #300999

Coach
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
oipolloi - 2005-12-07 11:00 AM
Sassafras - 2005-12-07 10:06 AM

I do a mix of shorter sets and longer sets, and then occasionally I will do a longer swim. It's also a little confidence booster for me to know that I can swim the distance that I will be swimming in a race.

I've read/heard you really aren't supposed to do the long constant swims much, I think there's a good article in this month's Triathlete. The author says something like, "the only thing long slow swimming makes you good at is long slow swimming." So, a long slow swim shouldn't be done every time...you need that mix to help with speed (like you said). Technique and efficiency are very important in swimming.

Now that's been my problem....to many long slow swims.  I'll knock out 3500 yds but it takes me 1hr:35 (which is 2:60 / 100 pace) which is very slow.  My technique is still not mastered so I do a lot of concentrating on form when swimming.  My coach has me working primarily on kick form, which slows me down even more.  Of course when I have flippers on I am much faster, but that's not helping my speed / endurance for normal swimming.  Damn I hate swimming.  There's too much to it.  Its made me love my bike that much more. 

I think this is the perfect time of the year to focus on technique and forget about distance and speed... I am not sure when your first race is next season but if you improve your technique now, in a few months you can increase your speed and/or distance relatively easy. I know sometimes is boring and hard to be in the pool lap after lap, kicking that board or swimming a 50 yds drill in 2+min. BUT, when my focus start drifting away I ask to myself: do you want to swim fast now or at your 1st race?



2005-12-07 11:20 AM
in reply to: #301018

Elite
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Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
amiine - 2005-12-07 11:10 AM
oipolloi - 2005-12-07 11:00 AM
Sassafras - 2005-12-07 10:06 AM

I do a mix of shorter sets and longer sets, and then occasionally I will do a longer swim. It's also a little confidence booster for me to know that I can swim the distance that I will be swimming in a race.

I've read/heard you really aren't supposed to do the long constant swims much, I think there's a good article in this month's Triathlete. The author says something like, "the only thing long slow swimming makes you good at is long slow swimming." So, a long slow swim shouldn't be done every time...you need that mix to help with speed (like you said). Technique and efficiency are very important in swimming.

Now that's been my problem....to many long slow swims.  I'll knock out 3500 yds but it takes me 1hr:35 (which is 2:60 / 100 pace) which is very slow.  My technique is still not mastered so I do a lot of concentrating on form when swimming.  My coach has me working primarily on kick form, which slows me down even more.  Of course when I have flippers on I am much faster, but that's not helping my speed / endurance for normal swimming.  Damn I hate swimming.  There's too much to it.  Its made me love my bike that much more. 

I think this is the perfect time of the year to focus on technique and forget about distance and speed... I am not sure when your first race is next season but if you improve your technique now, in a few months you can increase your speed and/or distance relatively easy. I know sometimes is boring and hard to be in the pool lap after lap, kicking that board or swimming a 50 yds drill in 2+min. BUT, when my focus start drifting away I ask to myself: do you want to swim fast now or at your 1st race?

My first race is in April, then I have a race every month until a HIM in August then a full 140.6 in SeptemberSpeed isn't important to me in regards to placing in a race.  I just want to be efficient and swim fast enough to meet the time cut-off in my HIM and IM.  What I lack in the pool I make up for on the bike.  Last race I did I lost 10 minutes to the pack in the water then gained 20 on the bike.  But when it comes to HIM and IM I need to be able to complete the distance (1.2 & 2.4) in a respectable time and not be spent when I'm through swimming. 

2005-12-07 12:46 PM
in reply to: #300999

Master
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Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
oipolloi - 2005-12-07 11:00 AM
Damn I hate swimming.  There's too much to it.  Its made me love my bike that much more. 



I hated swimming for a while, when I started this past January. Slowly I've been progressing and now I wish I couls swim everyday. I love to see improvement (returns), for every bit of effort I deposit into it. Hope you get there too.
2005-12-07 1:46 PM
in reply to: #300998

Champion
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Evergreen, Colorado
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing

I have never been a fan of a certain amount of time recovery aka 15 seconds between reps. I joined a masters team a couple of years ago that did this and it drove me crazy. It gives you a way to slack, which I am excellent at if given the opportunity. I have to have a specific interval in order to push me. For example, 10x100 on x:yz. This helps me because if I don't make an interval my workout is screwed. The other way, if I don't do a rep fast enough, oh well I can just wait 15 seconds. That's just me.

Heh...I often felt this way too.  But the flip side of that...what if you're not having a good day?  You're going to kill yourself to make your interval when you could still get something out of the workout if you used 'rest inbetween'.  I think both have a time and place.  It is easier to slack off when you get a RI...but don't let yourself!

2005-12-07 10:48 PM
in reply to: #300905


8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
Eddie - what is your current pace for a 50, 100, 200, 500, 1,000?
2005-12-08 7:40 AM
in reply to: #300905

Coach
10487
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
Mike R - By any chance do you know a good swim coach in Boston or MA or a good source where I can look for one? I really need to work on my swim as I want to break 20 min for 1.5K (right now I am at 23:15 min) I believe I accomplsihed as much as I can by my own and I need proper instruction to be able to achieve this goal. Thanks in advance


2005-12-08 8:11 AM
in reply to: #301607


8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
Jorge - you could contact Tim Crowley out in Marlboro - he just attended Level III coaching with me and he is a very good coach and swimmer. [email protected]
2005-12-08 9:13 AM
in reply to: #301535

Master
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Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
mikericci - 2005-12-07 10:48 PM
Eddie - what is your current pace for a 50, 100, 200, 500, 1,000?


These are my average times right now (steady pace):
50 - :55
100 - 2:10
200 - 4:20
500 - 13:05
1000 - 27:00

Edited by cobannero 2005-12-08 9:23 AM
2005-12-08 9:25 AM
in reply to: #301667


8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
cobannero - 2005-12-08 7:13 AM

mikericci - 2005-12-07 10:48 PM
Eddie - what is your current pace for a 50, 100, 200, 500, 1,000?


These are my average times right now (these are not going all out fast just swimming at a steady pace):
50 - :55
100 - 2:10
200 - 4:20
500 - 13:05
1000 - 27:00

Ok - IMO - you are swimming well up to 200 which tells me your form is ok - not great, not poor. So, when you move up to longer distances, you really struggle which tells me your endurance is so-so and your stroke falls apart too.

My suggestion would be to swim longer sets 1-2x per week. I mean 4x250 for week 1, 4x300 in week 2, 3x500 in week 3, and 2x750 in week 4. All of these should be done very easy, and your rest is 10 seconds for each one. Swim a 250, rest 10 secs, do another 250. This will force you to go slow, focus on form and increase your endurance. The other important factor is that most people (myself included) don't swim often enough. Go out there and swim 4-6x per week, even if you only get in and swim 500 yds and you will see a dramatic difference in 4 weeks.

I hope this helps you.
2005-12-08 2:48 PM
in reply to: #301678

Master
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Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
WOW! Thanks Mike! Your assesment in your first paragraph is right on the nose.

I'll give it a shot. Normally, I make it to the pool M, W & Fridays. I'll start at least 4X and see how it goes.

Thanks again!

Edited by cobannero 2005-12-08 2:49 PM
2005-12-08 2:54 PM
in reply to: #300905

Coach
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Subject: RE: Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing
Thanks Mike!


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