Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

Master

10208

Northern IL

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

bzgl40 - 2012-01-06 6:01 AM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-05 8:57 PM

cbrave - 2012-01-05 8:52 AM

You guys are right about sustaining "all out" being impossible in an endurance sport. However, I think it is okay to assume that we are talking all out relative to an endurance race rather than dash. Yes, pacing is required but I think most of us when referring to all out are talking about the fastest sustainable pace for that distance rather than what we could do for a dash or sack race.

Isn't that the goal of every race?

Maybe, but probably not in the terms you're talking about. In a short duathlon I am going to run a stand alone 5k, try and bike my little shorts off, and then run a stand alone 5k. I don't hold back the pace of my first run or my bike to try and save my legs for the second run. I am going to trust my fitness to carry me through both runs without holding back my pace to "save my legs" on the run. I'd probably do something similar in a sprint though. Of course if I was doing an Endurance DU or a HIM my plan would be different. I would dial back that bike a bit to make sure I have the legs for the run.

Now, if I didn't have the required fitness then I'd slow my pace down for the first 5k a bit, probably still bike hard, but not as hard, and ensure I can run a good pace with no walking cause I wore myself out on the first run on the second run.

This response is actually much more useful than the all out or fastest sustainable for the distance responses from before because it makes an attempt to quantify what that means. That's what Fastyellow and I were saying. Just saying to go as fast as you can for the distance can leave people thinking "Well duh", but it doesn't do anything towards determining the effort level. I prefer working off threshold levels, but others like things such as basing off 5k. These are much more helpful because they are much more likely to be known or are easy enough to find out.

My Race Log

Expert

1123

Falls Church, VA

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

bzgl40 - 2012-01-06 7:01 AM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-05 8:57 PM

cbrave - 2012-01-05 8:52 AM

brigby1 - 2012-01-04 8:41 PM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-04 10:34 PM

goran007 - 2012-01-04 5:53 PM you should go all out from the gun until the finish line.

In a race that is more than likely over an hour long....that's pretty much impossible.

I'm curious about an elaboration on that as well. Usually that is meant for up to 100m or so. Maybe 200 for very fit individuals. After that everyone needs some measure of pacing even though it may be run rather hard. How would you define that level?

You guys are right about sustaining "all out" being impossible in an endurance sport. However, I think it is okay to assume that we are talking all out relative to an endurance race rather than dash. Yes, pacing is required but I think most of us when referring to all out are talking about the fastest sustainable pace for that distance rather than what we could do for a dash or sack race.

Isn't that the goal of every race?

Maybe, but probably not in the terms you're talking about. In a short duathlon I am going to run a stand alone 5k, try and bike my little shorts off, and then run a stand alone 5k. I don't hold back the pace of my first run or my bike to try and save my legs for the second run. I am going to trust my fitness to carry me through both runs without holding back my pace to "save my legs" on the run. I'd probably do something similar in a sprint though. Of course if I was doing an Endurance DU or a HIM my plan would be different. I would dial back that bike a bit to make sure I have the legs for the run.

Now, if I didn't have the required fitness then I'd slow my pace down for the first 5k a bit, probably still bike hard, but not as hard, and ensure I can run a good pace with no walking cause I wore myself out on the first run on the second run.

Well most people who run stand along 5 ks are puking at the end.. do you want to be puking when you are done with 25% of the race?

My Race Log

Master

10208

Northern IL

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

For the race being discussed, it is actually a pair of 2 mile runs, not 3.1. It might actually work, since most people don't quite get to that point. Or one might heave in the second run if they go all in like that.

Edited by brigby1 2012-01-06 9:42 AM

My Race Log

Payson, AZ

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

Bioteknik - 2012-01-06 6:58 AM

bzgl40 - 2012-01-06 7:01 AM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-05 8:57 PM

cbrave - 2012-01-05 8:52 AM

brigby1 - 2012-01-04 8:41 PM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-04 10:34 PM

goran007 - 2012-01-04 5:53 PM you should go all out from the gun until the finish line.

In a race that is more than likely over an hour long....that's pretty much impossible.

I'm curious about an elaboration on that as well. Usually that is meant for up to 100m or so. Maybe 200 for very fit individuals. After that everyone needs some measure of pacing even though it may be run rather hard. How would you define that level?

You guys are right about sustaining "all out" being impossible in an endurance sport. However, I think it is okay to assume that we are talking all out relative to an endurance race rather than dash. Yes, pacing is required but I think most of us when referring to all out are talking about the fastest sustainable pace for that distance rather than what we could do for a dash or sack race.

Isn't that the goal of every race?

Maybe, but probably not in the terms you're talking about. In a short duathlon I am going to run a stand alone 5k, try and bike my little shorts off, and then run a stand alone 5k. I don't hold back the pace of my first run or my bike to try and save my legs for the second run. I am going to trust my fitness to carry me through both runs without holding back my pace to "save my legs" on the run. I'd probably do something similar in a sprint though. Of course if I was doing an Endurance DU or a HIM my plan would be different. I would dial back that bike a bit to make sure I have the legs for the run.

Now, if I didn't have the required fitness then I'd slow my pace down for the first 5k a bit, probably still bike hard, but not as hard, and ensure I can run a good pace with no walking cause I wore myself out on the first run on the second run.

Well most people who run stand along 5 ks are puking at the end.. do you want to be puking when you are done with 25% of the race?

I have never puked at the end of any race, and I feel I give my all on a 5k. I recover VERY quickly to get out on the bike. I guess maybe I am lucky?!?!? I laid out my stagey of how I race. YMMV

My Race Log

Master

2355

Houston, TX

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

I've only barfed three times after a race. Two of those were short duathlons like this (2/12/2 format). Pacing truly depends on fitness levels. Higher your fitness, the more you'll be racing on the rivet for these short races and longer races even. Training and experience will be your best pacing method. You should naturally know your paces without even really thinking about it. Give it a shot, leave the watches and gadgets behind. You may just surprise your self with how well you pace a short race. If are coming in under and hour and are fit... you really can just go on the rivet pretty much the whole time.

I've always found that for the shorter duathlons, 4-6 miles of running total, my average pace for the two runs combined is usually spot on for my 5 miler race time pace.

Edit -- Also, I usually find my self 5-10s slower per mile on the 2nd run.

Edited by smilford 2012-01-06 9:59 AM

My Race Log

Expert

839

Central Mass

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

Bioteknik - 2012-01-06 6:58 AM

bzgl40 - 2012-01-06 7:01 AM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-05 8:57 PM

cbrave - 2012-01-05 8:52 AM

brigby1 - 2012-01-04 8:41 PM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-04 10:34 PM

goran007 - 2012-01-04 5:53 PM you should go all out from the gun until the finish line.

In a race that is more than likely over an hour long....that's pretty much impossible.

I'm curious about an elaboration on that as well. Usually that is meant for up to 100m or so. Maybe 200 for very fit individuals. After that everyone needs some measure of pacing even though it may be run rather hard. How would you define that level?

You guys are right about sustaining "all out" being impossible in an endurance sport. However, I think it is okay to assume that we are talking all out relative to an endurance race rather than dash. Yes, pacing is required but I think most of us when referring to all out are talking about the fastest sustainable pace for that distance rather than what we could do for a dash or sack race.

Isn't that the goal of every race?

Maybe, but probably not in the terms you're talking about. In a short duathlon I am going to run a stand alone 5k, try and bike my little shorts off, and then run a stand alone 5k. I don't hold back the pace of my first run or my bike to try and save my legs for the second run. I am going to trust my fitness to carry me through both runs without holding back my pace to "save my legs" on the run. I'd probably do something similar in a sprint though. Of course if I was doing an Endurance DU or a HIM my plan would be different. I would dial back that bike a bit to make sure I have the legs for the run.

Now, if I didn't have the required fitness then I'd slow my pace down for the first 5k a bit, probably still bike hard, but not as hard, and ensure I can run a good pace with no walking cause I wore myself out on the first run on the second run.

Well most people who run stand along 5 ks are puking at the end.. do you want to be puking when you are done with 25% of the race?

I rarely see people puking after races. But, lets say many people do, after running pace x for 5000m. If you run the same x pace, but just for 3200m, you've still got 1800m of running before you explode. People who puke at 5000m races don't puke 2/3ds through the race

Expert

2555

Colorado Springs, Colorado

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

Bioteknik - 2012-01-06 7:58 AM

bzgl40 - 2012-01-06 7:01 AM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-05 8:57 PM

cbrave - 2012-01-05 8:52 AM

brigby1 - 2012-01-04 8:41 PM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-04 10:34 PM

goran007 - 2012-01-04 5:53 PM you should go all out from the gun until the finish line.

In a race that is more than likely over an hour long....that's pretty much impossible.

I'm curious about an elaboration on that as well. Usually that is meant for up to 100m or so. Maybe 200 for very fit individuals. After that everyone needs some measure of pacing even though it may be run rather hard. How would you define that level?

You guys are right about sustaining "all out" being impossible in an endurance sport. However, I think it is okay to assume that we are talking all out relative to an endurance race rather than dash. Yes, pacing is required but I think most of us when referring to all out are talking about the fastest sustainable pace for that distance rather than what we could do for a dash or sack race.

Isn't that the goal of every race?

Maybe, but probably not in the terms you're talking about. In a short duathlon I am going to run a stand alone 5k, try and bike my little shorts off, and then run a stand alone 5k. I don't hold back the pace of my first run or my bike to try and save my legs for the second run. I am going to trust my fitness to carry me through both runs without holding back my pace to "save my legs" on the run. I'd probably do something similar in a sprint though. Of course if I was doing an Endurance DU or a HIM my plan would be different. I would dial back that bike a bit to make sure I have the legs for the run.

Now, if I didn't have the required fitness then I'd slow my pace down for the first 5k a bit, probably still bike hard, but not as hard, and ensure I can run a good pace with no walking cause I wore myself out on the first run on the second run.

Well most people who run stand along 5 ks are puking at the end.. do you want to be puking when you are done with 25% of the race?

I do lots of 5Ks and have never puked. Nor have I seen "most" people puking, but rather a very tiny percentage. I watch lots of high school cross country runners finish 5Ks in the 15-17 minutes range and none of them are puking. Who/where are these "most" people?

I've done duathlons, even won the overall at one. Mine were 5K/20K/5K and I raced each segment just as hard as if it were a stand-alone race.

What helped is training for this kind of effort. One workout was doing a 1 mile run, 4 mile bike, 1 mile run, 4 mile bike, etc., up to 4-5 repeats ending with a run. This is all done at a very hard effort. It teaches a person how to get up to speed quickly after transitioning, plus it helps with learning how to do fast transitions.

BTW, in the duathlons I did, none of the top people ran as fast in the second run - and the people who tried for even pacing finished well back in the standings. A race like this is too short to be holding back.

My Race Log

Master

2355

Houston, TX

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

BTW, in the duathlons I did, none of the top people ran as fast in the second run - and the people who tried for even pacing finished well back in the standings. A race like this is too short to be holding back.

This. X1000

My Race Log

Pro

5755

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

Bioteknik - 2012-01-06 9:58 AM

bzgl40 - 2012-01-06 7:01 AM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-05 8:57 PM

cbrave - 2012-01-05 8:52 AM

brigby1 - 2012-01-04 8:41 PM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-04 10:34 PM

goran007 - 2012-01-04 5:53 PM you should go all out from the gun until the finish line.

In a race that is more than likely over an hour long....that's pretty much impossible.

I'm curious about an elaboration on that as well. Usually that is meant for up to 100m or so. Maybe 200 for very fit individuals. After that everyone needs some measure of pacing even though it may be run rather hard. How would you define that level?

You guys are right about sustaining "all out" being impossible in an endurance sport. However, I think it is okay to assume that we are talking all out relative to an endurance race rather than dash. Yes, pacing is required but I think most of us when referring to all out are talking about the fastest sustainable pace for that distance rather than what we could do for a dash or sack race.

Isn't that the goal of every race?

Maybe, but probably not in the terms you're talking about. In a short duathlon I am going to run a stand alone 5k, try and bike my little shorts off, and then run a stand alone 5k. I don't hold back the pace of my first run or my bike to try and save my legs for the second run. I am going to trust my fitness to carry me through both runs without holding back my pace to "save my legs" on the run. I'd probably do something similar in a sprint though. Of course if I was doing an Endurance DU or a HIM my plan would be different. I would dial back that bike a bit to make sure I have the legs for the run.

Now, if I didn't have the required fitness then I'd slow my pace down for the first 5k a bit, probably still bike hard, but not as hard, and ensure I can run a good pace with no walking cause I wore myself out on the first run on the second run.

Well most people who run stand along 5 ks are puking at the end.. do you want to be puking when you are done with 25% of the race?

Never puked during a race, can't say I've seen too many people do this either. In 32+ years of running I've been involved in a lot of races, too. Sucking wind, yes, always, 5k is short and hard.

I did 4 duathlons last year, 3 were sprints and they are all out effort for all 3 legs. You run 100%, on the first run, recover on the bike and then run 100% again. Everyone is slower on the second run, but those with the best conditioning slow down the least.

My Race Log

Champion

5312

Calgary

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

Donskiman - 2012-01-06 9:14 AM

Bioteknik - 2012-01-06 7:58 AM

bzgl40 - 2012-01-06 7:01 AM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-05 8:57 PM

cbrave - 2012-01-05 8:52 AM

brigby1 - 2012-01-04 8:41 PM

Fastyellow - 2012-01-04 10:34 PM

goran007 - 2012-01-04 5:53 PM you should go all out from the gun until the finish line.

In a race that is more than likely over an hour long....that's pretty much impossible.

I'm curious about an elaboration on that as well. Usually that is meant for up to 100m or so. Maybe 200 for very fit individuals. After that everyone needs some measure of pacing even though it may be run rather hard. How would you define that level?

You guys are right about sustaining "all out" being impossible in an endurance sport. However, I think it is okay to assume that we are talking all out relative to an endurance race rather than dash. Yes, pacing is required but I think most of us when referring to all out are talking about the fastest sustainable pace for that distance rather than what we could do for a dash or sack race.

Isn't that the goal of every race?

Maybe, but probably not in the terms you're talking about. In a short duathlon I am going to run a stand alone 5k, try and bike my little shorts off, and then run a stand alone 5k. I don't hold back the pace of my first run or my bike to try and save my legs for the second run. I am going to trust my fitness to carry me through both runs without holding back my pace to "save my legs" on the run. I'd probably do something similar in a sprint though. Of course if I was doing an Endurance DU or a HIM my plan would be different. I would dial back that bike a bit to make sure I have the legs for the run.

Now, if I didn't have the required fitness then I'd slow my pace down for the first 5k a bit, probably still bike hard, but not as hard, and ensure I can run a good pace with no walking cause I wore myself out on the first run on the second run.

Well most people who run stand along 5 ks are puking at the end.. do you want to be puking when you are done with 25% of the race?

I do lots of 5Ks and have never puked. Nor have I seen "most" people puking, but rather a very tiny percentage. I watch lots of high school cross country runners finish 5Ks in the 15-17 minutes range and none of them are puking. Who/where are these "most" people?

I've done duathlons, even won the overall at one. Mine were 5K/20K/5K and I raced each segment just as hard as if it were a stand-alone race.

What helped is training for this kind of effort. One workout was doing a 1 mile run, 4 mile bike, 1 mile run, 4 mile bike, etc., up to 4-5 repeats ending with a run. This is all done at a very hard effort. It teaches a person how to get up to speed quickly after transitioning, plus it helps with learning how to do fast transitions.

BTW, in the duathlons I did, none of the top people ran as fast in the second run - and the people who tried for even pacing finished well back in the standings. A race like this is too short to be holding back.

man that sounds like a fun workout.

My Race Log

Master

2356

Westlake Village , Ca.

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

Donskiman - 2012-01-06 8:14 AM

BTW, in the duathlons I did, none of the top people ran as fast in the second run - and the people who tried for even pacing finished well back in the standings. A race like this is too short to be holding back.

This is a much more appropriate answer than "all out". If you want to run each segment like a stand alone and just fade towards the end, that is probably the best strategy for a race of this distance. Unless you think that would leave you walking the last two miles....then it's a fitness issue. Also remember, that the :30-2 minutes of transition is also recovery time....you can also take the first and last minutes of the bike to recover slightly without losing too much time.

Another thing to take into consideration, if you are not going for the win or a podium, or any glory for that matter, even pacing will make the experience a ton more enjoyable. While fading towards the end might yield your fastest time, it is a horrible feeling to be so tired that you start slowing down....it hurts and may not be exactly what you are looking for out of this experience.

My Race Log

Pro

5755

Subject: RE: Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon?

Fastyellow - 2012-01-06 1:30 PM

Donskiman - 2012-01-06 8:14 AM

BTW, in the duathlons I did, none of the top people ran as fast in the second run - and the people who tried for even pacing finished well back in the standings. A race like this is too short to be holding back.

This is a much more appropriate answer than "all out". If you want to run each segment like a stand alone and just fade towards the end, that is probably the best strategy for a race of this distance. Unless you think that would leave you walking the last two miles....then it's a fitness issue. Also remember, that the :30-2 minutes of transition is also recovery time....you can also take the first and last minutes of the bike to recover slightly without losing too much time.

Another thing to take into consideration, if you are not going for the win or a podium, or any glory for that matter, even pacing will make the experience a ton more enjoyable. While fading towards the end might yield your fastest time, it is a horrible feeling to be so tired that you start slowing down....it hurts and may not be exactly what you are looking for out of this experience.

When I wrote going at 100%, I meant the maximal effort that is consistent for the entire leg. Not going out as fast as possible and gradually slowing down because you're outrunning your level of conditioning. How many races have you seen people tearing off at the start only to pass them 10 minutes later?

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Race Strategy Triathlon vs Duathlon? (Page 2)

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