General Discussion Triathlon Talk » How much is too much? (diminishing returns) Rss Feed  
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2006-05-09 10:33 AM

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Subject: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
I'm training for sprints this year, and come from a running background. How much over race distance is a reasonable max for LDS, on all three sports? For example, I can easily run a 10K at an easy tempo. But I still am working on building endurance on the bike and swim. Increasing the distance on my long run days won't have much impact,will it? At what point do you say "that's far enough, lets work on speed, interval, etc."

Thanks!


2006-05-09 11:00 AM
in reply to: #418717

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
I would say it is different for each person. It all depends on background, fitness levels, genetic gifts, mental determination.

I don't build up as slowly as most people. So my answer will most likely be scoffed here (flame away fools). For me, I start getting really tired when I am swimming about 6 miles a week, biking about 225 miles per week, and running about 30 miles a week. I eat well and avoid substances that negatively affect my performance. These long weeks really get at me and I have to cycle with a lower week the next week to recover.

So find your "spot" and push youself beyond it every once in a while. I cycle my training to push myself beyond what I have done before about every three weeks. It may not be what is recommended, but I find it works for me.

Mike
2006-05-09 11:43 AM
in reply to: #418717

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)

Since you already have a running background, your best focus is on your swimming and biking.

I would look at the available sprint plans here, and pick a plan that is weighted more towards your weakness ( swimming and/or biking ).  You can probably increase the time in the plan for running, since you're doing longer than sprint distance runs already, but 2-3 runs per week should be more than enough to keep your current level of run fitness, assuming you're able to swim and bike 3-4 times a week ( each! ).

Where you will gain the most is from increasing the frequency that you swim and bike each week.  It's easy to train in the area you enjoy the most/are better at.  To improve though, you need to focus on your weaknesses and bring those up to the same level.

Where do you stand today in terms of swimming and biking, can you give us an idea on your experience/fitness in those areas? 

2006-05-09 11:53 AM
in reply to: #418811

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
coredump - 2006-05-09 12:43 AM

Where do you stand today in terms of swimming and biking, can you give us an idea on your experience/fitness in those areas?



I did one sprint last year, but then let off tri training to do a marathon. I'm biking about 45 mins now on the trainer, and swimming about 800 meters. My first yearly tri is July 25th(26th). My main concern is that I can keep increasing my distance by 10% every week, but after a certain amount, the extra distance isn't going to have much effect on a sprint distance race. I was wondering what that point is. When I hit double the distance ( swimming 1 mile, biking 40 miles), 1.5x the distance? In effect, where is the point I stop focusing on distance and switch to intensity.

thanks!
2006-05-09 12:00 PM
in reply to: #418717

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
i'm kind of in the same boat, as i come from just running, and am training for a sprint triathlon in june. right now i'm swimming and running 4 days a week each, with one interval run and one longish run in the mix (right now it's only a 10k long run). i swim an average of 2200-2500 yds per swim (with workouts from a book), with mile trials about every 2-3 weeks to see any progress. i don't really know if this is too much/too little, but i'm not overly tired, yet it definitely poops me out.

as for the bike, i'm actually borrowing one in a week, and hope to bike 4 days a week too (though i'm a little bummed at only having a month to train with it until the race). i haven't really thought about what volume or intensity to train at, other than at least the 15 mile distance of the race. i'm interested to see what other posts come up on this one.
2006-05-09 12:21 PM
in reply to: #418825

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
cevans - 2006-05-09 10:53 AM
coredump - 2006-05-09 12:43 AM

Where do you stand today in terms of swimming and biking, can you give us an idea on your experience/fitness in those areas?

I did one sprint last year, but then let off tri training to do a marathon. I'm biking about 45 mins now on the trainer, and swimming about 800 meters. My first yearly tri is July 25th(26th). My main concern is that I can keep increasing my distance by 10% every week, but after a certain amount, the extra distance isn't going to have much effect on a sprint distance race. I was wondering what that point is. When I hit double the distance ( swimming 1 mile, biking 40 miles), 1.5x the distance? In effect, where is the point I stop focusing on distance and switch to intensity. thanks!

With swimming in particular, in my opinion you're definitely well served by doing 2x-3x sprint distance ( so swim sessions of 1800-2400 meters ).  If you swimming shorter than that, you're likely not spending enough time in the water to make gains on your form.  If you are new(ish) to swimming, then your primary focus should be on form and drills, rather than speed work.  When you are comfortably swimming 2000+ meters in a swim session, then it may be worth looking at doing interval/speed work.  Though your main goal is to get time in the water, and work on form.

With biking, I'd say it's similar, though probably a little less "overmileage" than swimming.  Just ride.  You should have good cardio fitness from the running you've done.

With both, the key to seeing improvements, if you are "new" to tri training, is consistency ( 3-4 workouts per week per sport you want to improve ), and being able to do that for a long time.  Increase your durations by 10%.

You need to build a solid base before you really will gain much benefit from intervals/speed work.  The way to do that is consistent, frequent, training.

Besides, once you get a few more sprints under your belt, you'll probably feel the urge to take on the olympic distance, so you'll continue to increase your training for that.   

-Chris 



2006-05-09 12:35 PM
in reply to: #418717

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
Call me crazy, but I would think that you'd be well served to start mixing in speed work pretty much right away. You are obviously already in shape, so your aerobic base is there. Why not start doing speed / intensity workouts from the get-go?

I know I'm no expert on this, and I am the same, I come from a much stronger running background than anything else. But, when you were doing marathon training, when did you start mixing in speed?
2006-05-09 1:03 PM
in reply to: #418881

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)

Scout7 - 2006-05-09 11:35 AM Call me crazy, but I would think that you'd be well served to start mixing in speed work pretty much right away. You are obviously already in shape, so your aerobic base is there. Why not start doing speed / intensity workouts from the get-go? I know I'm no expert on this, and I am the same, I come from a much stronger running background than anything else. But, when you were doing marathon training, when did you start mixing in speed?

Maybe on the bike, perhaps.  But I'd definitely disagree with doing that for swimming, based on what the original poster related as his current swim abilities. 

2006-05-09 1:13 PM
in reply to: #418927

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
coredump - 2006-05-09 2:03 PM

Scout7 - 2006-05-09 11:35 AM Call me crazy, but I would think that you'd be well served to start mixing in speed work pretty much right away. You are obviously already in shape, so your aerobic base is there. Why not start doing speed / intensity workouts from the get-go? I know I'm no expert on this, and I am the same, I come from a much stronger running background than anything else. But, when you were doing marathon training, when did you start mixing in speed?

Maybe on the bike, perhaps. But I'd definitely disagree with doing that for swimming, based on what the original poster related as his current swim abilities.



OK, makes sense. I may have also misunderstood his initial question, too, because I thought he was talking about the running.

But, to follow-up, when WOULD be a good time in terms of the swim?
2006-05-09 1:23 PM
in reply to: #418938

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
Scout7 - 2006-05-09 12:13 PM
coredump - 2006-05-09 2:03 PM

Scout7 - 2006-05-09 11:35 AM Call me crazy, but I would think that you'd be well served to start mixing in speed work pretty much right away. You are obviously already in shape, so your aerobic base is there. Why not start doing speed / intensity workouts from the get-go? I know I'm no expert on this, and I am the same, I come from a much stronger running background than anything else. But, when you were doing marathon training, when did you start mixing in speed?

Maybe on the bike, perhaps. But I'd definitely disagree with doing that for swimming, based on what the original poster related as his current swim abilities.

OK, makes sense. I may have also misunderstood his initial question, too, because I thought he was talking about the running. But, to follow-up, when WOULD be a good time in terms of the swim?

Since he's already strong in running ( compared to swimming and biking ) the focus should be on swimming and biking, and doing only a 'maintenance' level of running.  Certainly his base is there with marathon training on the run.  But it's not there on the swim or bike ( yet ).

When swimming is consistently around or a little under a 2:00 / 100 M pace for a longer set ( 400+ ), then it might be time to start working on intervals/speed.  Up to then, the best gains will come from a focus on swimming form, rather than speed.  Speed will come through efficiency as you improve your form.  Once you've hit the limit of improvement through form, is when you should start working on endurance/speed/strength.

I'm not a swim coach, so I'd defer to anyone with more experience in this area.   

2006-05-09 1:26 PM
in reply to: #418717

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)

This might sound as a vague advice but you don’t provide a lot info to offer a better one Anyway, I would do maintenance runs and focus on biking and swimming to improve endurance and technique. (in fact is what I've been doing for my own training)

You already have the running base and the extra time on the other sports will benefit your run as well. As you get close to the race you can add some speed/tempo runs to keep you sharp and remind your legs of speed. Finally the better prepare you are for biking & swimming the better you will be able to use your great base and post a better run…



2006-05-09 1:33 PM
in reply to: #418938

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
My original question pertains to all three sports in general, though mine skills are lopsided. I feel like I need to build up my total training on both swimming and biking before I start doing much speed work. But since I can already do double the distance (and more) for running, I should start incorporating more speed work in there.

Is double the race distance a good rule of thumb for endurance? In other words, in any of the three sports, if I can do a LSD of double the tri, I'm good to go?

I have limited training time, so I'm trying to optimize. I don't want to go out and run 4 hours or bike 6 hours or swim 2 miles if that time is better spent elsewhere. I also don't want to short change myself and DNF because I don't have the endurance on race day.
2006-05-09 1:42 PM
in reply to: #418717

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)

For the swim, I'd shoot for 2-3x the distance (over an entire swim session).  For the bike I'd shoot for 2x the distance.  These are for your 'long' workout.  Every workout doesn't have to be that distance, remember.  And that's what you work *towards* not, where you should be starting your plan.

Frequency is important in order to improve.  Even if it's just a 30 minute ride or swim, if you can do them multiple times through the week, you'll be better served than if you try to do just one monster session on the weekend.

IE you don't need to get out and bike 4 hours on the weekend.  In fact, I think you'd be better served if you biked 1 hour / 4 days a week.

-C 

2006-05-09 1:46 PM
in reply to: #418981

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
coredump - 2006-05-09 1:42 PM

IE you don't need to get out and bike 4 hours on the weekend.  In fact, I think you'd be better served if you biked 1 hour / 4 days a week.

-C 

How about 4 hours on the weekend  AND 1 hour / 4 days a week?

Cool

2006-05-09 1:51 PM
in reply to: #418965

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)

I'm not expert and the time and distance you go really depends on your goals.  Last year when I was just starting out and my primary goal was to finish the race, secondary goal was to lose weight.  I would do about 2x the distance of my race.  This meant that in the pool I was swimming 40 minutes on a long day, though I did do 1 or 2 20 minute swim days each week as well.  On the bike my long ride was 60-90 minutes, with shorter rides of 30-50 minutes.  My run was where I screwed up the most, I would run 3x a week, 5 miles was the long and then two 3 mile runs.

Currently the plan is to build to about the same levels in the swim and bike, but I've been putting a focus on the run, my long runs are between 10-12 miles now with 2-3 shorter runs from about 40-60 minutes.  I end up with about 25-30 miles per week, because I gnerally miss one of my runs due to family commitments.  My long run should be shorter in reality but it's a good time for me to build my overall condition and I run about 80%-90% with a Zone 1 Heart Rate and the rest in a low Zone 2 region.

I started to focus on the run over the winter and slowly built my time and mileage up to that point.  It has helped, last August I could run a 5km in about 30 minutes, now I can run 21-22 minutes.  Currently my goals are to improve overall and since my run was the worst event compared to others at my races I started with that.  At some point in the future I'll work on the other sports as well.

Chris.

2006-05-09 2:08 PM
in reply to: #418985

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
the bear - 2006-05-09 12:46 PM
coredump - 2006-05-09 1:42 PM

IE you don't need to get out and bike 4 hours on the weekend. In fact, I think you'd be better served if you biked 1 hour / 4 days a week.

-C

How about 4 hours on the weekend AND 1 hour / 4 days a week?

Cool

If you're not time limited, and can do both, sure.  :D



2006-05-09 2:25 PM
in reply to: #418981

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
coredump - 2006-05-09 2:42 PM

For the swim, I'd shoot for 2-3x the distance (over an entire swim session). For the bike I'd shoot for 2x the distance. These are for your 'long' workout. Every workout doesn't have to be that distance, remember. And that's what you work *towards* not, where you should be starting your plan.

Frequency is important in order to improve. Even if it's just a 30 minute ride or swim, if you can do them multiple times through the week, you'll be better served than if you try to do just one monster session on the weekend.

IE you don't need to get out and bike 4 hours on the weekend. In fact, I think you'd be better served if you biked 1 hour / 4 days a week.

-C



So, to understand this correctly, don't worry about doing any real speed workouts for the swim or bike until I can comfortably go 2-3 times the distance I want to race at; once I can do that, I can start incorporating the speed stuff in.

As for the run, how do you define a maintenance run? Personally, I don't see much reason to not maintain your current run levels, assuming you have the time to do so. Plus, is there any problem with doing speed work on the run while still building base for the bike and / or swim?
2006-05-09 3:17 PM
in reply to: #419036

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
Scout7 - 2006-05-09 1:25 PM
coredump - 2006-05-09 2:42 PM

For the swim, I'd shoot for 2-3x the distance (over an entire swim session). For the bike I'd shoot for 2x the distance. These are for your 'long' workout. Every workout doesn't have to be that distance, remember. And that's what you work *towards* not, where you should be starting your plan.

Frequency is important in order to improve. Even if it's just a 30 minute ride or swim, if you can do them multiple times through the week, you'll be better served than if you try to do just one monster session on the weekend.

IE you don't need to get out and bike 4 hours on the weekend. In fact, I think you'd be better served if you biked 1 hour / 4 days a week.

-C

So, to understand this correctly, don't worry about doing any real speed workouts for the swim or bike until I can comfortably go 2-3 times the distance I want to race at; once I can do that, I can start incorporating the speed stuff in. As for the run, how do you define a maintenance run? Personally, I don't see much reason to not maintain your current run levels, assuming you have the time to do so. Plus, is there any problem with doing speed work on the run while still building base for the bike and / or swim?

2-3x are rough guides, if you're aiming at sprint distance.  That's not chisled in stone, as everyone has different abilities and fitness and goals.

By maintenance on the run, I'm referring to only running 2x a week or so.  If you are already doing marathons, you don't need to run 4x / wk to prepare for a sprint.  You need to focus on the bike and swim.

Treat each sport independantly.  If you have a base in running, do speed work.  But make sure you focus on your weaknesses.  Running is not a weakness if you are doing marathons.  Time is better spent improving bike and swim, than on speed work for the run if that's the case.

2006-05-09 3:25 PM
in reply to: #419114

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
coredump - 2006-05-09 4:17 PM

By maintenance on the run, I'm referring to only running 2x a week or so. If you are already doing marathons, you don't need to run 4x / wk to prepare for a sprint. You need to focus on the bike and swim.

Treat each sport independantly. If you have a base in running, do speed work. But make sure you focus on your weaknesses. Running is not a weakness if you are doing marathons. Time is better spent improving bike and swim, than on speed work for the run if that's the case.



I suppose that this all depends on a number of factors. Time available to train, frequency of training, and overall goals.
2006-05-09 3:45 PM
in reply to: #418717

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Subject: RE: How much is too much? (diminishing returns)
I just went through some of the training plans on the site. It looks like the longest distance in teh plans is about the distance for the race i.e. longest swim is about 900 yds, longest bike is 1 hour.

I'm going to increase distance until I'm about 1.5/2x race distance per sport, then add in speed work into one workout each week ( I work each sport 2x a week). That means running gets speedworkk now, swim/bike in a month or so.

Then, come fall, I can start to build endurance for the inevitable Oly in my future

Thanks for the help!
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