Swimming - Kick Sets with fins

Do you need to do a lot of kick sets to be a fast distance swimmer?

Nope.

But do you need to know how to have a fast and propulsive kick (when you do isolated kicking) to be a fast distance swimmer?

Yes.

That skill (knowing how to kick fast and being able to do it when called upon) will help you use your regular distance kick for good buoyancy and for balance (and for speed management) in a good distance freestyle stroke. And your kicking speed with a board (at a hard effort) should not be a lot slower than your moderate effort swimming speed. But just doing lots of random kick sets because they have been assigned to you probably won't help. Doing them with fins could help if you use the right fins, as certain fins do a decent job of teaching you how to kick better.

Can you name those fins?

Sure. To start, beginners working on improving their kick technique should absolutely avoid zoomers. In terms of good fins for teaching better technique, I like the aquasphere alpha fins. But they have to be used correctly to teach you a new skill, you can't just use them as a crutch.

Generally, this is correct.

A tool is just a tool. You gotta use the tool correctly to get a desired result.

This sure is a hot topic.

Anyway, I don't think there is any place for fins for a newbie swimmer.  Fins don't teach you proper kick technique or do any of the other mumbo jumbo that tris preach.  They are a crutch for triathletes.  

Fins should only be used for load or fin specific sets.  A load set is when you wear fins with the intention of either going harder or faster than you could without them (think 5 X 100 @ 5:00 for time, 500 for time).  Using them for a set of 10 X 50 @ 1:00 is fairly pointless unless you hold about a :35.  For instance the other day we did 10 X (25 @ :30 + 50 @ :30) with fins, hold :27s on the 50s.  That is the sweet spot for fins.  

Actually, the right fins, used correctly, can indeed teach a new motor program for kicking.

I've seen it many, many times. And, yes, with good instruction, it works with newbies.

Adventurebear - I hear you and I agree.  The problem is that it looks good on paper but it rarely works in the pool.  Too often I see tris slap on the fins to make the interval either on a kick set or a swim set.  Being around some really impressive swimmers I only see fins used for maximum speed and maximum load.  It is more likely that a triathlete will take off the fins and return to crappy kicking.  

Also, when you consider that the average triathlete only trains the swim for about 2-4 months a year the benefit of the fins is lost annually and they start basically over.  

So, for the triathlete who is seriously dedicated to improving their kick, use the fins.  Otherwise, leave them in the bag.

Still, basically, having said all that I believe that tris should avoid fins as a general rule.  

I wanted to become a better swimmer.  I didn't want to pay for lessons and I like to figure things out for myself.  I bought the TI book. I had NO kick......I couldn't propel myself anywhere but possibly backward.  I couldn't do the TI balance drills without moving forward with a kick.....at least to a point where I felt like I wasn't drowning, which wasn't real advantageous to swimming better. I used fins to keep myself moving while doing the balance drills.  I took them off when I was doing stroke drills.  I don't think I could have done it without the fins.....and they certainly didn't hurt me.  I was a 2:40/100 swimmer then.  I can swim 1:40/100 now.  I still rest more than I probably should between sets but I'm getting there.  I swam my 1.2 in my HIM last year in 33:xx (wetsuit).  I never use fins now, but I couldn't have progressed to where I am without them.  I don't do TI drills anymore either, but I couldn't have done what I did without them (IMO). 

I have used many tips from this board to become a better swimmer....and plan to continue....but the "no fins" deal would not have worked for me as a starting point.

OK, I don't know how to swim, I haven't made it across a 25 yd pool yet... (I'm waiting to get lessons)... my ??? is if the legs, toes pointed out are just going up and down, where is the propulsion.  Wouldn't that be like just hittinng 2 sticks in the water?  I've tried using a float board in front of me and using just my legs, I think toes pointed out... still didn't make it across the pool before I was enhausted...  I'm kicking away and just not moving.  Then I feel like I'm about to kick the bottom because I'm staying in the 4 ft section so i don't drown.  Totally embarrasing...  Please help!  On another note I am swimming in big old baggy swim shorts too...if that matters.

I'm not trying to be difficult or a complete nimcompute, just trying to understand...

The propulsion in distance swimming comes from your upper body (arms, etc.).

Not so much from the kick.

Big old baggy swim shorts aren't helping your cause.

A little something TJ put together a few years ago.  This was posted on the other kick thread (Kick drills) going on right now (Thanks axteraa).

http://badig.com/2009/02/improving-your-flutter-kick/

Okay, I should back up a little bit.  I'm not a total newb at this point in the pool.  Best 1000yd TT was a 1:39/100 pace, but I've basically been stuck at this pace for a while, and went looking to improve it last winter only to find myself losing swim endurance as I was attached to a kick board going up and down the pool at a painfully slow pace.

For the record, I try to use a 2 beat kick, and aim to time it with a bit of roll and reach (not sure how successful/unsuccessful I am at that).  I see no point in using a 4 or 6 beat kick since I know I get little propulsion from my kick and therefore view it as potential wasted energy.

As said, time is very limited for being in the pool and I'm trying to make the most use out of that time, hence the question about the fins.

I have a terrible kick - according to my coach, no amount of work seemed to improve it (I'm the only squad member who goes slower when we do fin sets!)

After a few weeks he found a way to stop my kick hindering and slowing me down.

Firstly breathe to your bad side (now my good side).  When breathing to the left I used to overcompensate my kick and overbend my left knee.  Don't do that on the right bizarrely.

He then got me to do a heap of pull buoy sets to improve my stroke technique. 

Then when we got back to regular freestyle he said to imagine I still had the pull buoy and not to kick.  He said instinctively you will be kicking but in your mind you're not.  "It's worked a treat!

 I'm the opposite. I have very little knee flex when I kick and have been told my legs are too straight.

Problem with a pull bouy for me is I tend to swim very flat since I don't have any kick helping to initiate me rolling a bit.