ready to work on speed in the pool
-
No new posts
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller | Reply |
|
2012-04-11 3:52 PM |
Extreme Veteran 640 | Subject: ready to work on speed in the pool Prior to January, I had never swam laps for exercise before. Been in the water all my life (pools, lakes, rivers, ocean). Big time scuba diver, so there is no unhealthy fear of water or anything. In January, I started swim training for my first season of triathlon - first tri in 3 weeks. At first it was VERY hard. One 25-yard lap at a time hard. Can't imagine how they do this kind of hard. After 4 weeks I started to get it. As of now, every workout includes at least a full 1650-yard main set. I've gone over 2000 yards a few times and today did 2550 straight (took an hour exactly). Pace on my long main sets is in the 2:10 - 2:20 per 100-yard range which I believe is rather slow. Now that I've built up some endurance, I'd like to get my speed down a bit, but don't know the proper way to approach this. I have 3 days available to swim. I would like to go long (2000 yards) on one day per week. One other day, I'd like to also get 1650 yards for a main set. The third day however, I'd like to devote to speed. How should I structure my weeks workouts such that I can improve my times now that I have a bit of an endurance base? My goals are triathlon swimming, not swimming for swimming's sake. My "A" race this year is Ironman Augusta 70.3 at the end of September. In that race, the swim is in a river, one-way, with the current, with a wetsuit. Do I know how to sandbag or what? |
|
2012-04-11 4:25 PM in reply to: #4144186 |
New user 433 | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool To build speed...work on form. Once form has improved, 1:50 will feel like your 2:10 sets. My slow pace was 2:10, now it is 1:50. I can do 1:30s 100s but my heart rate goes up too high. I can do 1:40 as maybe my race pace, but not sure if its worth it to push it for a 7-8 minute gain in IM. The point is better form builds speed. You might have to build endurance up again if you increase your stroke rate. But if you look at the people that can do 1m 100s. Its from all the form training that allows this, they are not huffing and puffing or trashing the water. |
2012-04-11 4:35 PM in reply to: #4144186 |
Regular 262 Toronto, Ontario | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool What he (^) said. Once you have form down, I love doing sprint sets. 10 (or 20) x 50 on 1 min or 50 sec or whatever your pace is. These should be completed well under pace so that the remainder of the time is rest. i.e. 10 x 50 on 45 sec, you complete in 35 sec (sprinting) and rest 10 seconds. repeat 10 times. |
2012-04-11 4:35 PM in reply to: #4144186 |
Master 1890 Gig Harbor | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool Intervals, Intervals, Intervals. You need to have good form first. You can work pull only sets into your workouts to work on form. When your form is perfected - you work on speed. Great advice from couple of swim coaches on this thread here: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=432065&posts=30#M4132332 I grew up a competitive swimmer, my form is great - but the above thread helped me understand why you want to do intervals and not do one long swim in a workout. In only a couple of weeks - my time has improved. Good Luck. Hope it helps. |
2012-04-11 5:01 PM in reply to: #4144186 |
Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool michael_runs - 2012-04-11 4:52 PM My goals are triathlon swimming [...] You've probably seen this before but I'll post it again. http://joelfilliol.blogspot.ca/2012/01/most-popular-post-on-this-blog-is-is.html 1. Conditioning trumps drills. Technique matters, but the way most athletes try to improve technique doesn't work. Get fitter, and your ability to hold good technique improves. It takes a lot of work to develop aerobic conditioning in your upper body. If you think you are already swimming a lot but are not improving, swim more and keep at it. There are no shortcuts. |
2012-04-11 5:12 PM in reply to: #4144186 |
18 | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool +1 for form. Someone who is less in shape can out-swim someone who is more in shape just because of form. Strength and endurance and all that is important, but form trumps all else in swimming. Thanks everyone who posted those resources... I hadn't seen them before. Very helpful!!! |
|
2012-04-11 6:01 PM in reply to: #4144186 |
Regular 111 Indianapolis | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool There are a lot more qualified people on here than me to answer this question but I can tell what's been working for me lately. I was in a race late last year where I was getting passed because people were stroking faster than I was. I think I have pretty good form, but I guess I had a slow stroke rate. I finally picked up a tempo trainer because I was curious to see if I was really stroking that slowly. Turns out I that was exactly my problem. I put that thing on 1.03 and felt like I put propellers on my arms. It seems like I was just too relaxed in the water despite going 1:45 per 100y in the pool. I'm slowly trying to increase my stroke rate and I can feel that it's helping not only my speed but my overall fitness. |
2012-04-11 6:12 PM in reply to: #4144432 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool bo4uofm - 2012-04-11 5:01 PM There are a lot more qualified people on here than me to answer this question but I can tell what's been working for me lately. I was in a race late last year where I was getting passed because people were stroking faster than I was. I think I have pretty good form, but I guess I had a slow stroke rate. I finally picked up a tempo trainer because I was curious to see if I was really stroking that slowly. Turns out I that was exactly my problem. I put that thing on 1.03 and felt like I put propellers on my arms. It seems like I was just too relaxed in the water despite going 1:45 per 100y in the pool. I'm slowly trying to increase my stroke rate and I can feel that it's helping not only my speed but my overall fitness. Speed = Rate x Stroke length. End of story. Faster tempo isn't better...faster overall pace while maintaining sound form is. Try slowing the tempo so you no longer feel like you have propellers, but slightly faster than feeling "too relaxed". There's nothing wrong with feeling relaxed while swimming quickly... Long strokes & faster tempos = fastest speed. Shorten strokes or slow the tempo..either way you'll move more slowly. Don't forget that there are two sides to the equation |
2012-04-11 6:15 PM in reply to: #4144186 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool michael_runs - 2012-04-11 2:52 PM I have 3 days available to swim. I would like to go long (2000 yards) on one day per week. One other day, I'd like to also get 1650 yards for a main set. The third day however, I'd like to devote to speed. How should I structure my weeks workouts such that I can improve my times now that I have a bit of an endurance base? <First of all congrutulations on your improvement, excellent job! Now...I'll be blunt. Forget about doing the long main sets. There is no value in it if it keeps you swimmign slowly. Now that you KNOW you can swim a mile non-stop, forget about that for awhile while you work on improving form...you'll get fast faster if you stop doing long main sets for a while. Here is the response I posted on the other thread of nearly the same title (still on the front page). Neek-neek - 2012-04-10 6:50 AM To get faster at running, I've read on here to run slower and farther. Does that apply to swimming? Should I swim 800 or 1000 yards nonstop, or should I work at picking up speed on my 100 yard intervals? Both. Regarding adding distance: The biggest issue faced with swimmers who just get in and swim long distance is that form tends to breakdown as you get tired. If you are still somewhat new, this is a major problem. Swimmign with degrading form destroys opportunities to imprint better form so you need some way to keep tabs on that. The best way is to use a combination of both pace AND stroke count when you are working on building distance. ie...let's say your comfortable easy 100 yd swim takes you 1:50 and you can do this with a consistent 18 SPL. (the number will vary according to your height and skill level...taller people, better form = lower numbers). One fun task is to swim a pyramid and try to hold 18 SPL for the duration. If you can do this...it tells you that you are maintaining your form without breaking down. Metabolic conditioning happens while you are doing this task. Here is an example: 1000 yd set 50-200 pyramid, repeat the top UP: 50-100-150-200 Try to maintain 18 SPL the entire way. Record your time for each rep. DOWN: 200-150-100-50 Maintain 18 SPL, and see if you can swim each repeat at a slightly faster pace than the way up. If your SPL stays the same and your pace stays the same...that's a sustainable stroke. Work on increasing the length of the reps, the length of the set, or increasing the pace. If your SPL stays the same and your pace slows...you are maintaining technique but lack fitness to sustian the pace. Work on shorter distnace repetitions, or increase rest between reps until you can hold pace at that SPL if your SPL stays the same and your pace increases...you are ready to advance to faster paces, longer sets or more intricate patterns such as deliberate descends. if your SPL increases as your distance increases...then your form is breaking down and fitness is secondary to teaching yoru body to sustain good strokes that you can repeat over and over. Reduce the length of the repeats and the total distance of the set, increase the rest between sets until you can maintain chosen stroke count for the duration of your set..then work on advancing in ways mentioned above. Note that there is no "best" stroke count. The length and tempo of your strokes determine your pace. a skilled triathlete in both training and racing is able to CHOOSE the pace that they want...for the DURATION needed. They are also able to CHANGE the pace when desired. As your fitness/technique improve you may find your ideal / desired stroke count going down for easy sets...and going up for fast sets as you get faster. Probably teh easiest implementation of these ideas is Swim Golf. e.g Swim 10 x 50 with 15" rest. Record your time & your stroke count. With a sustainable stroke, the total of the two (Golf score) should stay the same (ish). It's not a hard & fast rule, but it's a good simple way to start. Stroke golf can apply to any distance and you can create many different "Golf Games" or goals to achieve with your golf score. (ie can you lower your score while keeping your stroke count the same? Can you lower your score while keepign your pace the same?) All of these can make you abetter, and faster swimmer. |
2012-04-11 6:34 PM in reply to: #4144186 |
Regular 111 Indianapolis | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool Not to highjack the thread but I always wanted to ask this question but didn't feel that it deserved its own thread. When measuring stroke count in the pool are you counting a push off from the wall and if so how much of a push off should one take? |
2012-04-11 10:55 PM in reply to: #4144494 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool bo4uofm - 2012-04-11 5:34 PM Not to highjack the thread but I always wanted to ask this question but didn't feel that it deserved its own thread. When measuring stroke count in the pool are you counting a push off from the wall and if so how much of a push off should one take? Just do your normal consistent pushoff. As long as it's generally the same, it will cancel out in your stroke count calculation. If you want to be really tehcnical about it, you can use a tempo trainer and count the same number of beeps off the wall before you stroke...then you always have the same amount of time on the pushoff. Whatever you do, don't shortchange the pushoff because you dont' want to "cheat" to get a low stroke count. just do a good streamlined push off the wall, and begin swimming before you've lost momentum. Practice a good pushoff and it will become consistent. |
|
2012-04-12 8:36 AM in reply to: #4144186 |
Chicago | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool Amateur advice here, and the ultimate answer probably has to do with stroke efficiency and form, but you need to work in some sprints if you are not already doing so. Personal experience....I haven't given up trying to improve or anything, but I'm pretty locked into my current swimming form. It's probably a B- at best...more like a D+ if a true swim coach evaluated me, but the tri people I swim with seem to think it's passable, and the improvement tips I'm getting at this point are hard for me to understand. So, given that, my approach to gaining speed is all about trying to swim faster as much as possible (sprints, intervals, whatever you call them). I obviously can't to do that for the entire workout, but mix in some 50's and 100's at top speed. I mean really push. Your lungs will burn like crazy, but take a :30 rest afterwards and jump back into your set and your more comfortable pace. Eventually some of that speed will leak into your "normal" pace. There's a ceiling to this approach, as like I said in order to get your speed way up you have to have impeccable form...but it's definitely something. |
2012-04-12 8:44 AM in reply to: #4145310 |
Extreme Veteran 640 | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool duder5189 - 2012-04-12 8:36 AM but mix in some 50's and 100's at top speed. I mean really push. Your lungs will burn like crazy, but take a :30 rest afterwards and jump back into your set and your more comfortable pace. Eventually some of that speed will leak into your "normal" pace. There's a ceiling to this approach, as like I said in order to get your speed way up you have to have impeccable form...but it's definitely something. This sounds like good advice. Being so new, I don't want something overly complicated that I have to write down and leave at the edge of the pool. I'll take one day a week and alternate sprint 50's with normal 100's and see how that goes. Over time I'll increase the number/length of the sprint intervals in this workout. Very easy to understand and implement. Thanks! |
2012-04-12 9:15 AM in reply to: #4144186 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool michael_runs - 2012-04-11 4:52 PM I would like to go long (2000 yards) on one day per week. This is generally a waste of one of your swim days. Do those only sparingly (like as you approach race day). |
2012-04-12 9:31 AM in reply to: #4145454 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool JohnnyKay - 2012-04-12 11:15 AM michael_runs - 2012-04-11 4:52 PM I would like to go long (2000 yards) on one day per week. This is generally a waste of one of your swim days. Do those only sparingly (like as you approach race day). +1 Make it 20x100 or 10x200 with a short rest instead where you are going a bit harder than you would for the straight 2000. |
2012-04-12 9:53 AM in reply to: #4145343 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool michael_runs - 2012-04-12 7:44 AM duder5189 - 2012-04-12 8:36 AM but mix in some 50's and 100's at top speed. I mean really push. Your lungs will burn like crazy, but take a :30 rest afterwards and jump back into your set and your more comfortable pace. Eventually some of that speed will leak into your "normal" pace. There's a ceiling to this approach, as like I said in order to get your speed way up you have to have impeccable form...but it's definitely something. This sounds like good advice. Being so new, I don't want something overly complicated that I have to write down and leave at the edge of the pool. I'll take one day a week and alternate sprint 50's with normal 100's and see how that goes. Over time I'll increase the number/length of the sprint intervals in this workout. Very easy to understand and implement. Thanks! You can certainly decide to do whatever sounds enjoyable in the water...there's no single best way. (well in my mind there is but I'll allow that people get results doing other things). but to be 100% honest...you should not do what is written above. I'm not saying nobody should do it...but at your current speed, it's a waste of your time, seriously. Doing 2000 yards straight isn't helping your speed. Doing sprint 50s when your avg speed is 2:12/100 isn't going to significantly improve your speed either. you need FORM work...and THAT will make you faster. Doesn't mean you need ot do only drills, and it doesn't mean you need to swim only slowly...but you need feedback on your form, you need a way to keep tabs on that form in the water...getting feedback DURING a swim about what's going well and what's not. Take a couple lessons, post us a video and do something really simple...count how many strokes it takes you to swim 25 yards...that's a telling figure as well. I'm not trying ot be mean...I really want to help. I just think its funny you decided to use the advice of the guy who posted that he's no expert...and this method limits your improvement, etc. |
|
2012-04-12 10:02 AM in reply to: #4145615 |
Extreme Veteran 640 | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool AdventureBear - 2012-04-12 9:53 AM count how many strokes it takes you to swim 25 yards...that's a telling figure as well. I'm not trying ot be mean...I really want to help. I just think its funny you decided to use the advice of the guy who posted that he's no expert...and this method limits your improvement, etc. I've been trying to find someone for a few triathlon-specific swim lessons. I don't want a traditional swim coach that'll have me doing lots of kick work. Haven't found anyone yet, but hopefully I will soon. The video thing, I guess I can try that. As far as the number of strokes, I do have that info. The link below is to my most recent swim workout (captured by Garmin 910xt). http://connect.garmin.com/activity/166984500 |
2012-04-12 10:05 AM in reply to: #4145615 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool Ok, I will admit I really didn't read the OP when I commented above. What AB posted above me is right on. You need to fix your form before working on speed in the pool. Well, fixing your form will be working on your speed. It will get you faster much quicker than swimming more and faster will ever do. |
2012-04-12 10:11 AM in reply to: #4145655 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool michael_runs - 2012-04-12 12:02 PM AdventureBear - 2012-04-12 9:53 AM count how many strokes it takes you to swim 25 yards...that's a telling figure as well. I'm not trying ot be mean...I really want to help. I just think its funny you decided to use the advice of the guy who posted that he's no expert...and this method limits your improvement, etc. I've been trying to find someone for a few triathlon-specific swim lessons. I don't want a traditional swim coach that'll have me doing lots of kick work. Haven't found anyone yet, but hopefully I will soon. The video thing, I guess I can try that. As far as the number of strokes, I do have that info. The link below is to my most recent swim workout (captured by Garmin 910xt). http://connect.garmin.com/activity/166984500 I don't know how the 910xt calculates strokes. Is the average strokes/length in that swim for one arm or both? ie. 15.5 left arm strokes/length but 31 total or 15.5 combined? |
2012-04-12 10:12 AM in reply to: #4145704 |
Master 1793 Essex Jct, VT | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool axteraa - 2012-04-12 11:11 AM michael_runs - 2012-04-12 12:02 PM AdventureBear - 2012-04-12 9:53 AM count how many strokes it takes you to swim 25 yards...that's a telling figure as well. I'm not trying ot be mean...I really want to help. I just think its funny you decided to use the advice of the guy who posted that he's no expert...and this method limits your improvement, etc. I've been trying to find someone for a few triathlon-specific swim lessons. I don't want a traditional swim coach that'll have me doing lots of kick work. Haven't found anyone yet, but hopefully I will soon. The video thing, I guess I can try that. As far as the number of strokes, I do have that info. The link below is to my most recent swim workout (captured by Garmin 910xt). http://connect.garmin.com/activity/166984500 I don't know how the 910xt calculates strokes. Is the average strokes/length in that swim for one arm or both? ie. 15.5 left arm strokes/length but 31 total or 15.5 combined? It counts only one arm. |
2012-04-12 10:13 AM in reply to: #4145704 |
Extreme Veteran 640 | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool axteraa - 2012-04-12 10:11 AM I don't know how the 910xt calculates strokes. Is the average strokes/length in that swim for one arm or both? ie. 15.5 left arm strokes/length but 31 total or 15.5 combined? A stroke is counted every time your arm wearing the Forerunner completes a full cycle.
|
|
2012-04-12 10:18 AM in reply to: #4144186 |
Master 1970 Somewhere on the Tennessee River | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool Triathlon swimming and competitive swimming are the same thing. They use the very same techniques. Body position, pull, kick, and breathing are the components of good form. How one chooses to do a particular race is strategy. Competitive swimming distances are usually shorter than triathlon distances. Learn from those who at are, or at one time were, high level competitive swimmers. These people have been there, done that, know what they are talking about. That is, if you want to maximize your journey from a beginner swimmer to a journeyman swimmer. |
2012-04-12 1:09 PM in reply to: #4145710 |
Master 2759 Los Angeles, CA | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool rsmoylan - 2012-04-12 8:12 AM axteraa - 2012-04-12 11:11 AM michael_runs - 2012-04-12 12:02 PM AdventureBear - 2012-04-12 9:53 AM count how many strokes it takes you to swim 25 yards...that's a telling figure as well. I'm not trying ot be mean...I really want to help. I just think its funny you decided to use the advice of the guy who posted that he's no expert...and this method limits your improvement, etc. I've been trying to find someone for a few triathlon-specific swim lessons. I don't want a traditional swim coach that'll have me doing lots of kick work. Haven't found anyone yet, but hopefully I will soon. The video thing, I guess I can try that. As far as the number of strokes, I do have that info. The link below is to my most recent swim workout (captured by Garmin 910xt). http://connect.garmin.com/activity/166984500 I don't know how the 910xt calculates strokes. Is the average strokes/length in that swim for one arm or both? ie. 15.5 left arm strokes/length but 31 total or 15.5 combined? It counts only one arm. OP has a high stroke rate of 31/length??? O_O I think the Garmin 910xt doubles the stroke count for 1 arm when it detects freestyle stroke? |
2012-04-12 1:17 PM in reply to: #4145655 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool michael_runs - 2012-04-12 11:02 AM I've been trying to find someone for a few triathlon-specific swim lessons. I don't want a traditional swim coach that'll have me doing lots of kick work. Haven't found anyone yet, but hopefully I will soon. This is not a good line of reason. You want to learn how to swim. Period. A "tri specific" swim lesson is bogus. Any good swim coach will take into account your goals if you tell them. If they have you do a bunch of kick work it's because they view your kick as ineffective in helping to generate good body position and/or an effective stroke. In which case, you should be doing some kick sets. Get a good SWIM coach. |
2012-04-12 2:19 PM in reply to: #4144186 |
Extreme Veteran 605 | Subject: RE: ready to work on speed in the pool I have had a great amount of success getting my wife's swim faster and more comfortable, consider it lessons. Lessons (and video taping which is just remote lessons) are the best bang for your buck/time IMHO. Swimming cannot be won with brute force, it's all about the form. By doing long sets you are just reinforcing the form you have now and the pace you are swimming at now. Think about getting lessons, coaching if it hurts the ego less. Many of the drills that you see people do, or talk about on the forums are miss-applied and the best drills for you depend on what your stroke looks like. Swimming is swimming regardless of if you're swimming in a tri or a swimming race. It's the same technique either way. Since you don't want a coach that works on a bunch of kicking I'm guessing you have a weak kick. This is probably because your butt is sinking and your feet are too high in the water. It's all just a guess without video, but since almost all new swimmers drag their butts it's probably a fair guess. So I would have you do some 75's kick, pull, swim. So that means, 25 yards kicking with a kickboard keeping your feet just below the surface and your butt high, then without stopping go right into 25 yards with a pull bouy and remember to keep a very long stroke not giving up any of the three phases of the pull (Catch, pull, and finish), and then again without stopping go right into 25 yards of swimming. When your swimming remember how high your hips were during the pull and try to use your kick to drive your hips up. Rest 15 seconds and do it again. |
|