Back to back long training days.

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

i think the "training on tired legs" thing is over rated. IMO it's much better to get a quality long run in. If you can separate them by a couple days,I think that's best.

YMMV

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Master

10208

Northern IL

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

It's more because of the first (scheduling). Switch things around for most of the time. It might not be bad to do a long run the day after the long ride once in awhile, but it's not necessary all the time. Getting yourself in the best shape possible as the priority is the best way to go faster. All these other adaptations and "getting used to" ideas can help, but they are secondary to getting in better shape.

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Master

1967

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

Because of scheduling I have always had Saturday and Sunday long workouts. I don't think it's ideal from a recovery stand point. I will say there's something to be said for getting out to run on Sunday morning on tired legs though. Mentally very similar to that feeling of starting an IM marathon.

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Champion

9600

Fountain Hills, AZ

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

ChrisM - 2012-04-15 9:31 PM

i think the "training on tired legs" thing is over rated. IMO it's much better to get a quality long run in. If you can separate them by a couple days,I think that's best.

YMMV

I wouldn't say it's over rated, I think it can certainly be beneficial. so can splitting up big days to allow for more recovery. In an ideal world, you could arrange your schedule to alternate bewteen the two. The relaity if the Saturday and Sunday long bike and run protocols are as much about the efficacy of the training as they are about simple time management. most people have the time to do the work only on the weekends.

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Expert

1051

San Jose

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

Thanks for the feed back. I see the value in setting up a program both ways. I'm leaning towards just changing it up when my body is telling me too or my schedule is.

This past weekend I rode 100K on the bike Saturday and ran 13 miles Sunday. The run was slow and I was tired. I was glad I did it but mentally I can see me needing to change to a midweek long run sometimes just so it's a better run and I get a little boost

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Expert

696

Sugar Hill, GA

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

I'm no expert but am using the Fink plan to prepare for my second IM. Keep in mind that the Fink plan doesn't really have "long" runs until pretty late in the plan, really not until peak. I'm in week 17 and am doing two 1 hour runs and two 30 minute t-runs Tuesday - Saturday and then the long run on Sunday is only 1:15 or 1:30. I'm certainly no runner but the plan built up so gradually that this is really just a middle distance run rather than a "long" run. Long enough to feel fatigued by the end but no so long that I'm beat up or in need of long recovery. I like the Fink plan b/c of the total volume of running (5 days per week) rather than relying on a long run.

All this said, the last 5 weeks of the plan build 15 minutes per Sunday run from 2 hours up to 3 hours. By the end of the peak phase it is certainly a "long" run.

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Expert

1164

Roswell, GA

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

bryancd - 2012-04-16 10:24 AM

ChrisM - 2012-04-15 9:31 PM

i think the "training on tired legs" thing is over rated. IMO it's much better to get a quality long run in. If you can separate them by a couple days,I think that's best.

YMMV

I wouldn't say it's over rated, I think it can certainly be beneficial. so can splitting up big days to allow for more recovery. In an ideal world, you could arrange your schedule to alternate bewteen the two. The relaity if the Saturday and Sunday long bike and run protocols are as much about the efficacy of the training as they are about simple time management. most people have the time to do the work only on the weekends.

Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about!

Tired training I have found to be beneficial. So long as you recover properly (ie. post workout nutrition, ice baths, compression clothing, RICE, etc) you should be able to handle it fine. Just listen to your body and it will tell you what it needs.

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over a barrier

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

I consider my long run a quality workout with quality running (high tempo) within the run. I don't want to start that run feeling like crap. I need my form to be at its best, not breaking down right.

I generally shoot for Wed or Thur long run and my long ride(s) on the weekend.

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Expert

2355

Madison, Wisconsin

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

50andgettingfit - 2012-04-16 10:19 AM

Thanks for the feed back. I see the value in setting up a program both ways. I'm leaning towards just changing it up when my body is telling me too or my schedule is.

This past weekend I rode 100K on the bike Saturday and ran 13 miles Sunday. The run was slow and I was tired. I was glad I did it but mentally I can see me needing to change to a midweek long run sometimes just so it's a better run and I get a little boost

IMO if you do every long run after after long ride, then you are getting yourself into bad habits. Running on tired legs week and and week out and your form will breakdown and you will get used to this and run with that bad form. What I think personally, is to get a few days in between with one long run/ride combo each month. Running long on fresh legs gives you a chance to get more out of your run, run better, and have better form.

Plus I do not know of any IM where you get to eat a couple meals, replenish your fluids and sleep for 6-8 hours in-between bike/run. Yes it does give you the feeling of legs that are a bit tired, but it is a whole new ball game when you run a marathon right off the bike!

Edited by bcagle25 2012-04-18 9:20 AM

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Champion

9600

Fountain Hills, AZ

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

bcagle25 - 2012-04-18 8:19 AM

50andgettingfit - 2012-04-16 10:19 AM

Thanks for the feed back. I see the value in setting up a program both ways. I'm leaning towards just changing it up when my body is telling me too or my schedule is.

This past weekend I rode 100K on the bike Saturday and ran 13 miles Sunday. The run was slow and I was tired. I was glad I did it but mentally I can see me needing to change to a midweek long run sometimes just so it's a better run and I get a little boost

IMO if you do every long run after after long ride, then you are getting yourself into bad habits. Running on tired legs week and and week out and your form will breakdown and you will get used to this and run with that bad form. What I think personally, is to get a few days in between with one long run/ride combo each month. Running long on fresh legs gives you a chance to get more out of your run, run better, and have better form.

Plus I do not know of any IM where you get to eat a couple meals, replenish your fluids and sleep for 6-8 hours in-between bike/run. Yes it does give you the feeling of legs that are a bit tired, but it is a whole new ball game when you run a marathon right off the bike!

Well, like I posted above, I agree that you want to have quality long runs and for many that will require a certain level of recovery. That may mean mid-week. But some also might be recovered sufficiently to execute that long run the day after a long ride well. I do 99% of my long runs on Sundays after long rides and don't experience much of what you describe, so we should be careful trying to qualify stuff like this too generally. Or do the long run on Saturday and the long ride on Sunday accomplishes the same thing as the mid week long run.

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Expert

2355

Madison, Wisconsin

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

bryancd - 2012-04-18 10:14 AM

bcagle25 - 2012-04-18 8:19 AM

50andgettingfit - 2012-04-16 10:19 AM

Thanks for the feed back. I see the value in setting up a program both ways. I'm leaning towards just changing it up when my body is telling me too or my schedule is.

This past weekend I rode 100K on the bike Saturday and ran 13 miles Sunday. The run was slow and I was tired. I was glad I did it but mentally I can see me needing to change to a midweek long run sometimes just so it's a better run and I get a little boost

IMO if you do every long run after after long ride, then you are getting yourself into bad habits. Running on tired legs week and and week out and your form will breakdown and you will get used to this and run with that bad form. What I think personally, is to get a few days in between with one long run/ride combo each month. Running long on fresh legs gives you a chance to get more out of your run, run better, and have better form.

Plus I do not know of any IM where you get to eat a couple meals, replenish your fluids and sleep for 6-8 hours in-between bike/run. Yes it does give you the feeling of legs that are a bit tired, but it is a whole new ball game when you run a marathon right off the bike!

Well, like I posted above, I agree that you want to have quality long runs and for many that will require a certain level of recovery. That may mean mid-week. But some also might be recovered sufficiently to execute that long run the day after a long ride well. I do 99% of my long runs on Sundays after long rides and don't experience much of what you describe, so we should be careful trying to qualify stuff like this too generally. Or do the long run on Saturday and the long ride on Sunday accomplishes the same thing as the mid week long run.

That is an excellent point, and something to consider. I guess in this situation mentioned it is highly individual and understanding ones experience, background could play a huge role in which route to go. For ex: Bryan you could pull of the double no problem as mentioned, you seem to have a strong running background that allows that. For me, 2 years ago I was just starting to run and really was a novice in every way imaginable, so it could be worth saying that I would take more from a mid week long run.

The other thought is switching the days around as you mentioned too.

And of course ones personal schedule plays into this as well

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Champion

9600

Fountain Hills, AZ

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

Agreed, which is why I think there's utility to varying the schedule if possible. If not, if the weekends present the only time opportunity to do the long work, then switch the bike/run days and see how you respond.

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Champion

10471

Dallas, TX

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

50andgettingfit - 2012-04-15 10:29 PM

I'm going to be starting Fink's Be Iron Fit training plan next week in preparation for IMAZ. His plan (and most of the others I've looked at) have Saturday and Sunday long training days. Some people have said that plans are usually written this way to accommodate working people. Other people have said it's more to train your body to perform under stress and train it to recover.

My schedule allows me to switch things around and do either my long run or long bike during the week if I need to.

From those that have trained for an IM, any feedback? Stick to the plan as written or would I be ok occasionally moving a long workout?

Thanks!

First time I did IM training in 2008, I did a long ride Sat (so I could ride with my club) and a long run Sunday. What a beat down.

This time around, I have done my long runs Tues or Wed and my long rides Saturday. Much more enjoyable. I am doing the same for my two clients training for IM's as well.

I have read recent articles that said the back to back long training days don't hold a lot of value... so I'm went with sliptting them up.

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Expert

977

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

With only 1 full IM under my belt all I can say is what worked for me. The majority of my long runs were on Sunday after a long bike on Saturday. Once in a while we would switch but that was more of a schedule issue than anything.

I really think it did a lot for me mentally.

enjoy,

Duane

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Champion

19812

MA

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

I'm guessing the OP is 50 based on your screen name. Recovery in your 50s will likely take more time than when you were younger.

For IM training I have done it both ways long bike followed by long run and also splitting the two within the week. Key is building your week so you can train consistently. If you have the ability to split them I'd encourage you to do so. Are you firmly committed to the Fink plan? If not see if you can find a plan that splits the long workouts.

I know some folks use which ever sport is your strength B or R you do that second day of weekend if you are forced to do both long bike and run on weekend. So run Saturday and bike Sunday if you are a stronger biker than runner.

Listen to your body and have fun training!

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153

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

In the past, I've done the Sat/Sun long bike and long run plan. This past year my Coach changed that. Because of my work schedule, I did a long bike on Saturday and a long run on Tues. Sunday would be a shorter bike. It made a big difference for me personally. My long run was more about quality than slugging out miles. The long bikes had a brick run after them to get me used to running off the bike. But I felt my training overall was better when we split the long workouts up. That's just my experience.

Veteran

549

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

I have done it both ways and unless you are a long time endurnance athlete or from a fairly strong running background, the long run the day after a long bike is setting someone up for injury or overtraining. Not saying this would happen quickly but I believe it greatly increases the risk. If you do the back to back long workouts you definitely need to take Monday as a complete rest day.

Expert

1051

San Jose

Subject: RE: Back to back long training days.

KathyG - 2012-04-19 8:28 AM

I'm guessing the OP is 50 based on your screen name. Recovery in your 50s will likely take more time than when you were younger.

For IM training I have done it both ways long bike followed by long run and also splitting the two within the week. Key is building your week so you can train consistently. If you have the ability to split them I'd encourage you to do so. Are you firmly committed to the Fink plan? If not see if you can find a plan that splits the long workouts.

I know some folks use which ever sport is your strength B or R you do that second day of weekend if you are forced to do both long bike and run on weekend. So run Saturday and bike Sunday if you are a stronger biker than runner.

Listen to your body and have fun training!

Yes, I'll be 52 this year and recovery from long workouts do take a bit longer now I want to make sure I get good quality in my workouts too so I think some of the time I'll split the long days and some of the time I'll keep them back to back.

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

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Back to back long training days.

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